ID ammunition.

By: Zidante - 13th April 2015 at 12:34 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

No expert but I would presume that SL is St Louis and 43 the year of manufacture. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_headstamps

By: Anon - 13th April 2015 at 12:43 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

As far as I am aware 20mm ammunition was not used in the B17. All its guns were normally 0.5in/50 calibre.

20mm was used in the P-38 and many British fighters and the Mosquito were equipped with it too.

Anon.

By: Creaking Door - 13th April 2015 at 13:00 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

7.92mm is typically German ammunition.

By: Trolly Aux - 13th April 2015 at 13:30 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

I thought SL was for 'Salt Lake' as in Salt Lake city

By: mike currill - 13th April 2015 at 13:55 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

The calibres sound more like Luftwaffe to me. Most of the German fighters of the period carried a mix of 20mm Cannon and 7.92mm machine guns so I would asay that those bullts were part of the reason it crashed.

By: Richard gray - 13th April 2015 at 14:16 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

Depends where you took measurement from.

The .50 caliber round is 5.5" (140mm) long with seated bullet. The casing alone is just under 4" (100mm) long. The primer end of the casing where the headstamp is located is 0.75" (19mm) diameter. The bullet is typically 2.25" (55mm) long with 0.75" (19mm) seated into the casing. The bullet diameter is 0.50".

S L is St Louis.

Go here to compere.

http://www.nebraskaaircrash.com/50caliber.html

By: smirky - 13th April 2015 at 14:17 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

7.92mm is typically German ammunition.

True, but all is not as it seems as some of the calibre designations are measured over the lands of the rifling.

Clean unfired bullets should measure 7.82mm for US, 7.90mm for British and 8.20mm for German.
(.30 cal .308" bullet, .303 .311" bullet and 7.92mm .323" bullet)

By: Bunsen Honeydew - 13th April 2015 at 15:11 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

True, but all is not as it seems as some of the calibre designations are measured over the lands of the rifling.

Clean unfired bullets should measure 7.82mm for US, 7.90mm for British and 8.20mm for German.
(.30 cal .308" bullet, .303 .311" bullet and 7.92mm .323" bullet)

That requires very precise measuring equipment.

The shape of German 7.92 is visibly different from .303 and .300, was the finder going by that? 20mm and 7.92mm was a standard mix of calibres on some German fighters could there be wreckage of more than one aircraft involved? Could they be rounds fired at the B-17?

By: Creaking Door - 13th April 2015 at 18:59 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

True, but all is not as it seems as some of the calibre designations are measured over the lands of the rifling.

Clean unfired bullets should measure 7.82mm for US, 7.90mm for British and 8.20mm for German.
(.30 cal .308" bullet, .303 .311" bullet and 7.92mm .323" bullet)

I cannot argue with any of that but had assumed, perhaps wrongly, that because it was a crash site that was being investigated the information had come from the cartridge cases rather than the projectiles.

For example, is 'S L' likely to be stamped onto the bullet or the cartridge case?

It isn't my area of expertise but I have cartridge cases with 20mm or 50cal marked on them but I don't recall ever seeing a 303 cartridge marked with 303? Modern cases are often marked 7.62 or 5.56 but I do not know about German wartime 7.92 (and would they be marked 7.9 rather than 7.92)?

By: Richard gray - 13th April 2015 at 23:23 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

Hi,

A friend of me found a few round of ammunition on a spot were during the war a B17 should have crashed. One bullet is 20mm and has the marking S L 43, the other bullet is 7,9 mm. Does anyone know if these kind of ammunition was used on a B17 and what S L 43 means.

Regards,

Mathieu.

Lets look at what the o/p has said.

One bullet is 20mm and has the marking S L 43,
This has to be the casing, as this is the only place on small arms ammunition that is marked.
S L 43 means that it was made in
SL = St. Louis Ordnance Plant - St. Louis, Missouri.
(any ammunition made in Salt Lake city would have U or UT = Utah stamped on it).

One bullet is 20mm Can you get a accurate measurement within 1mm of a piece of metal which has been lying about for 70 years?
The .50 caliber round is 5.5" (140mm) long with seated bullet. The casing alone is just under 4" (100mm) long. The primer end of the casing where the headstamp is located is 0.75" (19mm) diameter. The bullet is typically 2.25" (55mm) long with 0.75" (19mm) seated into the casing. The bullet diameter is 0.50".

So I would say that that one is defiantly a .50 calibre as used in a browning M2 machine gun as used on a B17.

The other bullet is 7,9 mm. This one is more difficult as we do not know whether Sonderman has just the bullet or just the casing or one intact.
If just the bullet then its likely to be a German one shot at the B17.
If casing or intact one it could have come from anywhere.

The 7.92×57mm Mauser (designated as the 8mm Mauser or 8×57mm by the SAAMI and 8 × 57 IS by the C.I.P.) is a rimless bottlenecked rifle cartridge. The 7.92×57mm Mauser cartridge was adopted by the German Empire in 1905, and was the German service cartridge in both World Wars. In its day, the 7.92×57mm Mauser cartridge was one of the world’s most popular military cartridges.

So will have to wait for photo's.

By: Creaking Door - 14th April 2015 at 00:54 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

A quick google of images reveals that 7.9 (or 7,9) was not unknown as a headstamp on 7.92mm cartridge cases; and some suggestion that the 7.92mm round was commonly referred to as 7.9mm (or 7,9mm) in German wartime service...

...I still think we're dealing with cartridge cases rather than 'bullets' here (and a German aircraft).

By: snibble - 14th April 2015 at 08:40 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

Does sound like a German aircraft purely because the 20mm surely is unfired or it would have blown itself to bits.
Did Dorniers ever carry cannon? Wondering if Chinese whispers might have made B17 out of D(o)17?

By: Creaking Door - 14th April 2015 at 09:19 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

I think it is almost inconceivable that projectiles fired at, say, a B-17, would remain in the B-17 or be found at the crash site (as I think is the suggestion of some of the posts above).

By: snibble - 14th April 2015 at 09:58 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

I think it is almost inconceivable that projectiles fired at, say, a B-17, would remain in the B-17 or be found at the crash site (as I think is the suggestion of some of the posts above).

I have seen 50 cal rounds lodged in armour plate, but I tend to agree, especially explosive cannon ammunition.

By: mike currill - 14th April 2015 at 13:36 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

I think it is almost inconceivable that projectiles fired at, say, a B-17, would remain in the B-17 or be found at the crash site (as I think is the suggestion of some of the posts above).

depends on where in the structure they came to rest, In the right place (wrong place if you happen to be B-17 crew) it could well remain within the wreckage on impact.

By: Creaking Door - 14th April 2015 at 15:43 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

If the 20mm and 7.9(mm) calibres come from the headstamps of cartridge cases then these cannot have come from a B-17 Bomber as no B-17 ever carried weapons of these calibres...

...unless anybody knows differently!

Was it two B-17 bombers that collided.....or a B-17 that collided with a German aircraft?

By: Creaking Door - 15th April 2015 at 10:18 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

If the rounds are complete and unfired then the next question is: are they damaged?

If the complete rounds are badly bent or crushed then this would (probably) indicate that they were from a crashed aircraft. If the rounds are not seriously damaged (except by normal corrosion) then it is (very) possible that they arrived at the site by a different method; at least a different method from a B-17 plummeting to Earth following a mid-air collision at +20,000 feet! (Probably!)

I can understand perhaps how a 7.92mm round may arrive at the crash-site. This round was standard German rifle ammunition and could easily have been dropped by almost any member of the German armed forces; the crash-site(s) would certainly be investigated to remove the bodies of the crew, weapons and ammunition (even if damaged), possible secret equipment or documents for investigation by military intelligence and, finally, the aircraft wreckage for scrap metal recovery. Local troops would also probably have visited the site, unofficially, to collect souvenirs!

All this activity could easily explain the presence of a single (or a few?) 7.92mm round(s).

However, it is difficult to explain the presence of a 20mm cannon round in this way!

If there were many rounds it is a far less likely explanation; and the crash-site of an unknown (German) aircraft much more likely. Also if German rounds are being found but American rounds (50cal) are not being found it would also seem to indicate this.

So, how many rounds are there.....and are the rounds damaged?

Some photographs would also be most useful.