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Thread: Lancaster, err Wellington wreck

  1. #1
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    Lancaster, err Wellington wreck

    Good afternoon,

    My compliments, this website is incredibly rich, it takes hours to visit the main topics!

    I am a 26 years old researcher from Northern Italy. I am currently trying to discover and to show the history of a plane wreck I found this summer, at more than 2900 meters on the Western Alps.
    Here you may find the photos and datas I already posted,

    http://www.iphpbb.com/board/ftopic-8...9380-1556.html

    You have to know that this crash site is covered by snow for at least 11 months per year, so it is quite difficult to look for other parts; I will come up there next spring, I hope.
    According to archives, this should be the wreck of Lancaster LM339. It crashed up there after striking Milano, during August, 1943. I would like to identify it for sure.

    Here, in the end, the list of the five inscriptions I found on the parts:

    number 1 28527
    numero 2 nothing
    numero 3 nn.
    numero 4 nn.
    numero 5 nn.
    numero 6 nn.
    numero 7 08ISS B
    numero 8 nn.
    numero 9 nn.
    numero 10 nn.
    numero 11 0130
    numero 12 32311 (with a strange symbol, where I read 42 and S)
    number 13 nn.


    Thank you all for your kind help.
    With my kindest regards,

    Marco

  2. #2
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    The part in the hand is a joint from the geodetic construction of a Wellington bomber, so you have a Wellington crash site probably from 205 Group RAF.
    BOOMPS A DAISY, ITS ENOUGH TO MAKE YOU WEEP.

  3. #3
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    Thank you,


    do you refer to this picture?,



    But no Wellingtons were lost there.

  4. #4
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    It would appear that a Wellington DID crash there....or else someone decided to dump a whole load of Wellington wreckage on a mountain!

    Unless I am mistaken (and I am only a lightweight,here) that is one of the "fishplate" joints that secured the cross-over sections of the geodetic structure. There were hundreds of them on a Wellington.

    PS.....:

    Ooooops....just noticed the previous post from Hampden Project which I have just reiterated. Thats what becomes of being a lightweight, here.

    Junk Collector found some bits of Wellington recently and posted an image, I think, of a complete one of these fishplates?

    Actually.....now I look at it again I am not so sure about the Wellington theory. Strange that two of us thought the same, though. Its just that the bits attached to this fishplate don't look too much like any of the geodetic structure?
    Last edited by Tangmere1940; 28th September 2009 at 16:59. Reason: Update!
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  5. #5
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    Hi Tangmere, thank you,


    I am not an expert in British bombers.. But I would like to ask if there are many differences from a Lancaster joint and a Wellington one.
    Because, according to RAF and other historians, up there it crashed a Lancaster MK III..

  6. #6
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    Yes. Huge differences!

    What I thought this to be is one of the geodetic structure jointing plates. Not something one finds on a Lancaster.

    However, I could be wrong.

    Any part numbers visible on any of the items you have found?

    If I recall correctly, we should be looking for 26EA if Lancaster? I think.
    Editor: 'Britain at War' Magazine

    A 'Key Publishing' product - Britain's Best Selling Military History Monthly

  7. #7
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    Here are two pictures of what I believe must be the "fish plate" joints of the cross over sections. The picture is of the wreckage of Wellington R1646 at Glen Clunie, Scotland.
    Hope this may help.
    regards Kjell


  8. #8
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    Hi Kjell,

    thanks, great photos!, very interesting. But my part is much more smaller..!


    Tangmere, what do you mean with 26EA?

    About inscriptions, the only I found are the followings (other ones may be covered by rust, and I do not want to try to remove it, not to damage the parts of the wreck):

    number 1 28527
    numero 2 nothing
    numero 3 nn.
    numero 4 nn.
    numero 5 nn.
    numero 6 nn.
    numero 7 08ISS B
    numero 8 nn.
    numero 9 nn.
    numero 10 nn.
    numero 11 0130
    numero 12 32311 (with a strange symbol, where I read 42 and S)
    number 13 nn.

  9. #9
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    285 and the photograph of the part confirms it as being Wellington.

    Cees

  10. #10
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    Definate Wellington wreckage. 285 Wellington part No. and the photo of wreckage in the hand, Wellington

    G.

  11. #11
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    No sign of any geodetics, but as Cees says, Wimpy I think until proven otherwise!

    As someone already pointed out, you have the back end of a .303 Browning there

    Edit - sorry prempted by Wellington285

  12. #12
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    Very strange,


    according to http://www.lostbombers.co.uk/ no Wellington was lost on the western Alps.

    Please, may you explain me why 285 should become from a Wellington and not a Lancaster or other planes?
    I am trying to post a better, more detailed e-mail with this inscription.



    [/IMG]
    Last edited by Marco S.; 28th September 2009 at 19:17.

  13. #13
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    Hello Marco,

    Following your posts on here as well as RAF Commands

    The website you mentioned in your previous post probably only covers RAF Bomber Command losses which took off from Britain. Most of the information on that website has been taken (and not acknowledged) from the excellent volumes of books RAF Bomber Command Losses by W R Chorley.

    There is a similar reference book that deals with RAF Bomber losses in the Middle East & Mediterranean by David Gunby and Pelham Temple. So far only Volume one has been published which I believe covers losses to the end of 1942.

    Maybe someone knows more about the ME & Med volumes than I do as I don't have copies of them.

    Kind Regards
    archieraf aka Linzee

  14. #14
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    Marco. I think what those helping are trying to say is that each aircraft type was given a specific number with which to prefix part numbers. In this case, the prefix for a Wellington is 285. For a Halifax for instance, I think the prefix is 57.

    As to the Lost Bombers website I believe Linzee is correct in saying that only Bomber Command aircraft are covered. But by August of 1943 wouldn't Wellintons of Bomber Command have been superceded by Lancasters and Halifaxes on such long missions? The evidence points to this particular aircraft being a Wellington of the Middle East and Italian based Squadrons.

    Wellingtons were flown by 37, 40, 70 and 104 Squadrons in the Middle East and Italy.

    Is it possible that there are two crash sites which have become confused?

    Regards,

    kev35
    The Forums only '"blithering anorak" as endorsed by ZRX61

  15. #15
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    Marco
    Have you any photographs of the actual crash site, that would be a great help
    G.

  16. #16
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    Very difficult.. it is not probable that there are two crash sites over there!



    Strange thing.. You saw the last picture I posted?

  17. #17
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    At least six Wellingtons from 205 group were lost on supply dropping sorties to the resistance groups in Northern Italy during November 1944.Im sorry but I dont know any other details other that none were lost from 40 Squadron.
    BOOMPS A DAISY, ITS ENOUGH TO MAKE YOU WEEP.

  18. #18
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    Have you found any Whitleys Marco?

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hampden Project View Post


    At least six Wellingtons from 205 group were lost on supply dropping sorties to the resistance groups in Northern Italy during November 1944.

    .
    `


    One of those 'six' you mention HP , is/was a Wellington.X, serial No. LN.914

    It was a 37.Sqdn Wimpy & apparently crashed into a hillside (Northern Italy)


    It was lost on Nov.10th 1944, on a Partisan-supply-drop BTW.

    As I haven't the faintest-idea of the layout in Northern-Italy, I figured I'd mention it; tho' I doubt it's related ?


    --

  20. #20
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    No, never found a Whitley..!

    But please, maybe these numbers referred to a different thing. Maybe, codenumbers for soemthing else.

    Which was the number of Lancaster, if 285 referred to Wellington?

  21. #21
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    Hi Marco

    Forum member Fluffy posted the following a while ago on Lancaster part IDs.

    Notes on the Avro Lancaster (Posted by Fluffy):

    For ease of identification, each area of the Lancaster is designated a letter followed by the actual part number.
    B – data and rigging
    BBH – repairs
    C – cockpit deck and fairings
    D- fuselage structure
    E – cowlings and fireproof bulkheads
    F – wing structure
    G – tailplane and elevators
    H – fin and rudders
    K - undercarriage main and tail
    N – furnishings
    O – power plant
    P – fuel and oil
    Q – piping services, hydraulic and pneumatic
    R – flying and trim controls
    S – instrument and panels
    T – radio and radar
    U – ancillary equipment
    V – electrical systems
    W – bomb gear
    X – gun gear
    Z - sundries

    The actual part number prefix is not clear - records suggest it may be 683, but that needs confirmation. Surely someone out there must know!

    Quote Originally Posted by Marco S. View Post
    No, never found a Whitley..!

    But please, maybe these numbers referred to a different thing. Maybe, codenumbers for soemthing else.

    Which was the number of Lancaster, if 285 referred to Wellington?

  22. #22
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    Hi Elliot,


    number 7 has got this inscription, 08ISS B:

    as I can see from your list (thanks!), it seems to refer to "data and rigging", or not?

  23. #23
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    Could it be a Stirling (I know, I would be expected to say that!)? Some were lost on long range missions to bomb Turin. I can check dates etc when back home.

    DS (should be working!)
    Never underestimate the power of human stupidity.

  24. #24
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    Thank you DocStirling,


    plase send me these datas and codenumbers, I am very interested.

    Unluckily, it seems very difficult to identify with certainty this wreck. My datas say "Lancaster", but many users, here, supposed to be a Wellington.

  25. #25
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    Hi Marco,

    Forgive me for being abrupt, but the parts you showed in this thread as well as the partnumber 285 all confirm this to be a Vickers Wellington. No doubt about about it.

    The typenumber of the Lancaster is 683.

    Sites such as lost bombers can be very deceptive and should not be used as a bible but more as a lead.

    Hope this helps
    Cees

  26. #26
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    Well, that might be the case if it was Lanc, but I really don't think it is!

    Wellingtons are much more interesting anyway! It's a good find


    Quote Originally Posted by Marco S. View Post
    Hi Elliot,


    number 7 has got this inscription, 08ISS B:

    as I can see from your list (thanks!), it seems to refer to "data and rigging", or not?

  27. #27
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    Hi Marco
    I have been looking for a decent photo to show you the part you have in your hand. I have a photo somewhere taken at a crash site in Scotland, but i cant find it. But i Have attached a poor quality photo of the joint taken at Hendon. This will might be of some help until i find a better photo
    Regards
    G.
    Found a better photo
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Wellington285; 29th September 2009 at 18:17. Reason: add photo

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whitley_Project View Post
    Hi Marco

    Forum member Fluffy posted the following a while ago on Lancaster part IDs.

    Notes on the Avro Lancaster (Posted by Fluffy):

    For ease of identification, each area of the Lancaster is designated a letter followed by the actual part number.
    B – data and rigging
    BBH – repairs
    C – cockpit deck and fairings
    D- fuselage structure
    E – cowlings and fireproof bulkheads
    F – wing structure
    G – tailplane and elevators
    H – fin and rudders
    K - undercarriage main and tail
    N – furnishings
    O – power plant
    P – fuel and oil
    Q – piping services, hydraulic and pneumatic
    R – flying and trim controls
    S – instrument and panels
    T – radio and radar
    U – ancillary equipment
    V – electrical systems
    W – bomb gear
    X – gun gear
    Z - sundries

    The actual part number prefix is not clear - records suggest it may be 683, but that needs confirmation. Surely someone out there must know!
    My part nos list does not include eng bearers or cowls they have Rolls nos usually starting with the letters pp, turrets and u/c components also have their own parts nos. An example of a Lanc part nos should look like 5R 1234 or 34F 123 but no more than 5 or 6 numbers after the letter. you can have up to 3 numbers before the letter as well.

    I have a data base of 22,000 Lanc drawings so if you can get the part nos I might be able to ident it, but I don't recognise any of the numbers you have posted
    A little knowledge is dangerous

  29. #29
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    From the Military Gallery website caption to a print..
    Encore by Steve Gibbs.

    Wellington Mk X Bombers from 104 Squadron Royal Air Force based at Foggia in Italy make a night raid on the Messerschmitt factory at Steyr in Austria on 24/25th February 1944. The raid was by way of a follow-up to the USAAF daylight raid of earlier that day which left the factory badly damaged. Of the 36 Wellingtons that took off from Foggia, only these two found the target. Others, using captured Italian maps later found to be in error, were unable to navigate accurately. Six aircraft were lost in the Alps through flying into mountains where their captured maps indicated incorrect heights. The depicted aircraft, flown by Canadian Flg Off Fred Ashbaugh and navigated by the late Flg Off Dennis Wilburn, returned safely to Foggia after the successful mission

  30. #30
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    Hmmm... Foggia in on the east coast of Italy, in the south.

    If the Wellingtons were striking Austria, a direct path would take them over water for most of the journey (up the Adriatic), and only a little overland flight... and that in extreme eastern Italy.

    Marco said he found the wreckage in the western Alps... that's a really severe deviation!!

    Perhaps those 6 are not the right ones?

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