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Thread: 1/4 scale RR Griffon 65

  1. #1
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    1/4 scale RR Griffon 65

    I have built numerous scale model Supermarine Spitfire. About to embark on a 1/4 scale Mark XIV and would like to build a working model 1/4 scale RR Griffon 65 to put in it. I would like to build it as authentic as possible!

    Anyone seen or know where I could obtain blueprints or plans and specifications of the Griffon 65 to start me on this project?

  2. #2
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    dream project!!! *drools*

    there's a chap called barry hares who built a gorgeous merlin i think it may have been 1/5 scale, not sure... well worth looking him up at least

    next, there is a chap in america who supplys castings for a merlin etc (know its not a griffon but should be some help)

    1/4 Merlin Casting

    please let us know how you're getting on!

    one day ill have the money to build my ultimate project... a quarter scale lancaster with 4 1/4 scale merlins in... (dreams wistfully)

  3. #3
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    Thumbs up

    That's one hell of a link - his work is amazing!!!
    And he has a Griffon on the list too....

    Love that Ferrari engine
    Pete Buckingham
    Former RAF Engineer
    Volunteer in Aviation
    http://hunterxf382.weebly.com/

  4. #4
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    ... wish i had one

    here's a vid of barry hares' engine runnin

    Model Merlin Running

    and the link to its build

    Merlin Build

    and also the link to the RR eagle he's building

    RR Eagle Build

    One day ill have one... one day

  5. #5
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    "If the C.O. ask's you to be Tail End Charlie...just shoot him!!!....A Piece of Cake.
    http://spitfirea58-27.blogspot.com.au/

  6. #6
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    noice that'll be interesting if he fires it up, id read somewhere that the barry hares turned over the Eagle he's been building, it burnt out a 1/hp genny engine the compression being so big...

  7. #7
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    Gr8 project!-does anyone remember that bloke who used to turn up at Old Warden with a range of running model engines?-i would guess he's no longer with us
    Give a man a fish and eat for a day. Give a man a fishing rod and he'll eat for a lifetime. Give a man religion and he'll die praying for a fish!

  8. #8
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    Over 7,000 parts comprise the engine, and over 6,000 hours were required to complete it.
    CHRIST!
    Daren Cogdon

    Spitfire fanatic

  9. #9
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    Barry Hares is a bit of an enigma, and I wonder if we will ever see anyone quite as capable again.
    I have been handling Merlin parts almost every day for the past 20 years, and as such the detail of them becomes imprinted in your mind. When I look at the parts of Barrys Merlin, most of them are just exactly the same as the real thing. No matter how good your drawings or ability to follow them, if you don`t have an exceptional eye for detail, this cannot be accomplished.

    I really don`t know how he does it!

    Regarding the Griffon 65. If you work out which parts are the same as the 58, which is quite a lot to start with, it should be easy to get access to a dismantled engine to take measurements, photos etc. I don`t know if anyone has drawings for it. Rolls-Royce do but they don`t normally issue them anymore because of the risk of them being used to manufacture parts for flight use.

    Pete
    If I had a quid for every time someone mentioned "buried crated Merlins", I could buy one!

    www.flightengineering.co.uk

  10. #10
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    Wow, the model engines on the www.enginehistory.org are simply amazing. You can certainly see how it would take thousands of hours to make one.

    Wonder if anyone is making a computer model of a merlin engine (modelling in cybespace rather than reduced scale). That would be interesting to see also.
    Steven Smart

    Hurricane aficionado, and Classical Guitar....

  11. #11
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    Miniature Merlin

    There's a chap called Tony Walshaw, who lives in the southern Lake District and he has made model Merlins. IIRC he made three 1/5-scale Mk 45's as a commission for Patrick Lindsay many years back (or it could have been one for Mr Lindsay and two for himself). Anyway, I have seen one of these close up and his work is outstanding. I think the engine ran, or was capable of running.
    It included an equally outstanding Rotol prop boss and stub blades.
    He has also made a DB605 and, I think, is presently making a Centaurus for a private client.
    I'll dig out the pics of the Merlin and post 'em.

    Anon.

  12. #12
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    i wonder what sort of power output these engines would make? a scaled down power?

    Ben

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anon View Post
    There's a chap called Tony Walshaw, who lives in the southern Lake District and he has made model Merlins. IIRC he made three 1/5-scale Mk 45's as a commission for Patrick Lindsay many years back (or it could have been one for Mr Lindsay and two for himself). Anyway, I have seen one of these close up and his work is outstanding. I think the engine ran, or was capable of running.
    It included an equally outstanding Rotol prop boss and stub blades.
    He has also made a DB605 and, I think, is presently making a Centaurus for a private client.
    I'll dig out the pics of the Merlin and post 'em.

    Anon.
    That possibly answers a question I have had for ages. I have the cover from a Model Engineer magazine with a Merlin which, although it looks like Barry Hares engine, it clearly isn`t on closer inspection, and the workmanship is indeed brilliant. I will dig that out and post it and we can see if we are singing from the same hymn sheet!!

    Pete
    If I had a quid for every time someone mentioned "buried crated Merlins", I could buy one!

    www.flightengineering.co.uk

  14. #14
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    Mini-Merlins

    To answer Nashio 966's query, as far as I remember they produce a lot of power, in fact more than scale. Remember that the 1/5 scale is a linear ratio so does not represent true power-to-scale.
    For instance, it may be a fifth of the length but it's very much less than a fifth of the weight - more like 40/1.
    With a typical model weight of, say, 25kg, with good mixture distribution and all twelve cylinders producing full power it could drive a substantial (overscale) propeller quite easily.

    To Merlin Pete: I think the engine was featured in a magazine.
    I'll be visiting Mr Walshaw tomorrow with some friends and if he is amenable I will take some photos of the currect projects and, with his permission, post a few on the forum.

    Anon.

  15. #15
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    so 4x 1/4 scale merlins on a 1/4 scale lancaster?......

    anyone see where im going?

    they guys on my course at uni are well up for building a 1/4 scale vulcan, but def dont think that any of the current microturbines are up to the job...

    i really cant wait to see barry hare's eagle 22 fired up, would be magnificent!

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by MerlinPete View Post
    That possibly answers a question I have had for ages. I have the cover from a Model Engineer magazine with a Merlin which, although it looks like Barry Hares engine, it clearly isn`t on closer inspection, and the workmanship is indeed brilliant. I will dig that out and post it and we can see if we are singing from the same hymn sheet!!

    Pete
    The front cover for Jan '83 edition of Model Engineer, shows a Merlin XX, the photo is credited to Barrie Hares, as is the very sparse text on page 13.

    Building the engine started in '76, and it is entirely machined from solid! it's displacement is 185cc, and power output is estimated at only 3 bhp; even the magneto's are working! spark plug gap is 0.005 in (and Pete thinks he gets problems with plug fouling!!)

    Edited to show front cover of ME jan '83
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by stuart gowans; 23rd October 2008 at 08:56.
    Why be your own worse critic, that's what the forum is for.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nashio966 View Post
    so 4x 1/4 scale merlins on a 1/4 scale lancaster?......

    anyone see where im going?

    they guys on my course at uni are well up for building a 1/4 scale vulcan, but def dont think that any of the current microturbines are up to the job...
    You're not going to actually build the thing from alloy, are you?

    If not, then they're more than capable.
    Daren Cogdon

    Spitfire fanatic

  18. #18
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    Clen Tomlinson is the master of scale engines..
    http://www.craftsmanshipmuseum.com/Tomlinson.htm




    I think he's started on his Napier Saber...
    Last edited by ZRX61; 22nd October 2008 at 16:37.
    If anybody ever tells you anything about an aeroplane which is so bloody complicated you can't understand it, take it from me: It's all balls. RJM.

  19. #19
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    Nice Deltic. Those pipes look gold-plated to me. But why does it have spark plugs? I know that the Nomad used an ignition system of some sort, but not the Deltic as far as I knew?

    The pic attached is from the 20th Dec. 1985 edition of Model Engineer, and it sounds very much like what Mr Anon was describing. In fact this one is a Merlin 55 as it has two-piece blocks, but many of these were converted from Merlin 45s, as this one would have been because the ornate manfacturers plate was dispensed with sometime late in 1941, but Merlin 55s were assembled much later than this, late `42 and during `43. I tried to blow up the plate and read the Mark No from it, but no luck!

    This therefore makes a mockery of my earlier post, as it appears to be as perfect a replica as Barry Hares Merlin, still, people with this kind of eye for detail must be one in a million!
    There are a pair of static models in Derby Silk Mill Industrial Museum, a Merlin and an "R", just two of many models completed by D A Russell, father of the late Mike Russell. I recall Mike telling me that they were made of wood with metal fittings, but you cannot tell. The Merlin apparently cost £600 in 1946.

    Pete
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    If I had a quid for every time someone mentioned "buried crated Merlins", I could buy one!

    www.flightengineering.co.uk

  20. #20
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    Mini-Merlins

    Here are a few pics I took of Tony Walshaws M45 at a model show in Bolton a good while back. They look very much like the same engine featured on the magazine cover (even down to the parquet flooring) except for the black blades.
    Mr Walshaw says he remembers the exhibition so it's definitely his model.
    Can Merlin Pete tell any other differences as they appear to be the same engine to me?
    Note: mini rocker cover on floor.
    Saw the latest project today, which is a DB601 in the final stages of construction. It is for a private collector in Barcelona. Just get an eyeful of this engine...
    Last edited by Anon; 14th February 2010 at 19:24.

  21. #21
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    Would you really risk flying one of these beautiful models? The thought of digging it out of a smoking hole in the ground is not a pleasant one!

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    well i think the idea is, that the chap who sells castings (as i linked above) intends his engines to be flown as they're not MASSIVELY detailed but still look the part.

    barry hares' engine is really, a unique engine, so personally, no i wouldnt risk flying that, but i would one of the afformentioned engines, all personal opinion at the end of the day, (and money )

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nashio966 View Post
    all personal opinion at the end of the day, (and money )
    What you can afford to lose I suppose.

    Please lets not get into the "fly or don´t fly" debate with models!!

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anon View Post
    Here are a few pics I took of Tony Walshaws M45 at a model show in Bolton a good while back. They look very much like the same engine featured on the magazine cover (even down to the parquet flooring) except for the black blades.
    Mr Walshaw says he remembers the exhibition so it's definitely his model.
    Can Merlin Pete tell any other differences as they appear to be the same engine to me?
    Note: mini rocker cover on floor.
    Saw the latest project today, which is a DB601 in the final stages of construction. It is for a private collector in Barcelona. Just get an eyeful of this engine...
    Yes, I agree, it is either the same one or one of the batch of three you mentioned.
    I have spent ages looking at it and it really is spot-on. This is where engineering becomes an art form.
    Still isn`t a Merlin 45 though! If the Spitfire stubs are correct for this engine it would be a 55, although that is a slightly unusual engine to make a model of.

    Pete
    If I had a quid for every time someone mentioned "buried crated Merlins", I could buy one!

    www.flightengineering.co.uk

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by MerlinPete View Post
    Nice Deltic. Those pipes look gold-plated to me. But why does it have spark plugs? I know that the Nomad used an ignition system of some sort, but not the Deltic as far as I knew?
    Pete
    That Deltic is petrol powered & the brass pipes were machined in 2 halves & then silver soldered together.
    If anybody ever tells you anything about an aeroplane which is so bloody complicated you can't understand it, take it from me: It's all balls. RJM.

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    Tony Walshaw's DB601

    Hopefully, here are the pics which should have attached to my earlier post:
    DB601 engine

    Anon.
    Last edited by Anon; 14th February 2010 at 19:24.

  27. #27
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    Breathtaking engineering.....
    "If the C.O. ask's you to be Tail End Charlie...just shoot him!!!....A Piece of Cake.
    http://spitfirea58-27.blogspot.com.au/

  28. #28
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    Daimler Benz Aero Engine

    That engine is absolutely breathtaking!! Has it run yet? Are there drawngs available somewhere for this engine? Would love to procure a set even if I am unable to finish the project. The drawings themselves would provide much enjoyment and entertainment. My hat is off to your dad.

    Don

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by QldSpitty View Post
    Breathtaking engineering.....
    Well said, they look amazing.
    "Keeping Britain's Heritage Flying!"

  30. #30
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    So what I want to know is that when is some enterprising person going to produce a 1/4 scale, non-running, relatively inexpensive model of a Merlin XX (or other mark) that can be assembled as a desktop display model?
    Steven Smart

    Hurricane aficionado, and Classical Guitar....

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