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Thread: A-A kill over Ossetia? (Su-27 vs Su-25)

  1. #1
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    A-A kill over Ossetia? (Su-27 vs Su-25)

    Today I have read in the Czech L+K magazine that Georgian Su-25 Frogfoot was shot down by an R-73 fired by Russian Su-27. The incident should have happened on Aug-09-2008 over Tskhinkvali and the Georgian pilot has reportedly ejected and was subsequently executed by Ossetian rebels.

    Anyone has more information about the incident?

  2. #2
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    Fake.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bob909 View Post
    Fake.
    Conclusive evidence!

    Close the thread please!









  4. #4
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    I dont want start serious discussion here because the topicstarter is flamer.

    There was no evidence of using Su-27 by Russians neither on this date nor any other one. The episode with "executed Georgian pilot" was also fake. Few days after the incident downed Russian pilot told about friendly fire by Strela and how Ossetians almost executed him.

    So its better to close this thread before new flame conspirology war was started.

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    The topic starter isn't a flamer. He's a long standing member of the forum and has contributed useful information in the past.

    If he says he read about it in a Czech or Slovak magazine it is worthwhile giving him the benefit of the doubt.

    Flex,

    How good is the reporting in this L+K magazine usually? I know that Serbian aviation magazines have, in the past, reported stories that they (more or less) copy/pasted from other publications without going to any effort whatsoever to check whether they are grounded in fact.
    Regards, Ivan

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    Quote Originally Posted by ink View Post
    The topic starter isn't a flamer. He's a long standing member of the forum and has contributed useful information in the past.

    If he says he read about it in a Czech or Slovak magazine it is worthwhile giving him the benefit of the doubt.

    Flex,

    How good is the reporting in this L+K magazine usually? I know that Serbian aviation magazines have, in the past, reported stories that they (more or less) copy/pasted from other publications without going to any effort whatsoever to check whether they are grounded in fact.
    I honestly don't know. I didn't even buy the mag, was just waiting in a local supermarket for my girlfriend to find a toy for her dog so I took a L+K mag from the shelf and had a look inside. They have dedicated three pages or so to Ossetian war and brought some claims I have never heard of before. Except the Su-27 vs Su-25 incident they also mentioned an upgraded Elbit Su-25KM Scorpion(!) having been shot down by a Russian Strela SAM. Have Georgians used their sole prototype in combat?

    I personally would not describe the L+K mag as pro-Russian biased, rather the opposite is true. But whether the author bothered to check the facts is something I cannot confirm. Finally, that is why I brought the question here so that we can discuss the matter together.
    Last edited by flex297; 16th October 2008 at 12:54.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bob909 View Post
    I dont want start serious discussion here because the topicstarter is flamer.

    So its better to close this thread before new flame conspirology war was started.
    There is no problem with my flaming, you just seem to have not swallowed the beating your wannabe-arguments took in the Israel planning to bomb Iran? thread.

    If you have a problem with the topic, the solution is simple: don't come here.

  8. #8
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    I personally would not describe the L+K mag as pro-Russian biased, rather the opposite is true.
    Certainly the part about the execution of the Georgian pilot seems to corroborate this

    Personally, I don't think a FLANKER downing a FROGFOOT is so far fetched but I would rather wait for more convincing evidence. FLANKERs were deployed to the theatre for air superiority and it seems realistic enough that they found targets to attack - nonetheless, so little is actually known about events during this brief conflict that I would prefer to have at least two, if not several, reliable sources on any one incident before being confident about its actual taking place.
    Regards, Ivan

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    Quote Originally Posted by ink View Post
    Certainly the part about the execution of the Georgian pilot seems to corroborate this

    Personally, I don't think a FLANKER downing a FROGFOOT is so far fetched but I would rather wait for more convincing evidence. FLANKERs were deployed to the theatre for air superiority and it seems realistic enough that they found targets to attack - nonetheless, so little is actually known about events during this brief conflict that I would prefer to have at least two, if not several, reliable sources on any one incident before being confident about its actual taking place.
    Looks like nobody except L+K has reported anything similar. Sounds very suspicious... It's probably a hoax.

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    Read similar story (except the execution) during the conflict in the different threads that ACIG.org formed to cover the conflict...

    So you have at least two sources now!.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pit View Post
    Read similar story (except the execution) during the conflict in the different threads that ACIG.org formed to cover the conflict...

    So you have at least two sources now!.
    I have seen no evidence that Su-27's were used but it is not inconceivable. I was under the impression that the Georgians only had one Scorpion anyway and that was a prototype?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sealordlawrence View Post
    I have seen no evidence that Su-27's were used but it is not inconceivable. I was under the impression that the Georgians only had one Scorpion anyway and that was a prototype?
    No you didn't see any videos of any Su-27s is what you mean, lots of sources reported that Flankers were flying over Tskhinvali to maintain air superiority.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sealordlawrence View Post
    I have seen no evidence that Su-27's were used but it is not inconceivable. I was under the impression that the Georgians only had one Scorpion anyway and that was a prototype?
    Zhuravliks were on the theater, list of regiments that give assets in the georgian campaign includes:

    3 GvIAP
    929 GLITS
    4 TsBPiPLS
    182 TsBPiBP
    2457 ABP SDRLO
    325 OTBVP
    485 OVPBU
    368 ShAP
    899 GvShAP
    455, 559, 959 BAP
    11, 47 GvORAP
    52, 121, 200 Gv TBAP

    Come on buddy, at least 3 GvIAP is Flanker user, based on Krymsk!.

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    It seems pretty certain that FLANKERs were deployed to the theatre - that at least has been reported by several sources. Whether they shot something down is, however, a different matter all together.
    Regards, Ivan

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    Thumbs up

    Thanks, folks, that is exactly the type of reasonable debate I was hoping for!

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    Georgia had at the very least 3 Skorpions. "18", "22" and "23"

    Entire GeoAF as follows

    Су-25 №№ "03", "16" + 17, 07
    Су-25КМ №№ "18", "22", "23"
    Су-25УБ №№ "20", "21"
    Ми-24П №№ "04", "07", "08"
    Ми-24В №№ "01", "03", "05", "06", "09", +02
    Ми-8 №№ "09", "10", "32" "41" + 19, 06, 46, 45
    Ми-14 № "08" + 07
    UH-1 №№ "23", "24", "25", "27" + 21, 20, 22, 26
    L-39 №№ "71". "72", "73", "74"

    Flex, who did L+K quoted or referred to when they posted the Su-27 vs Su-25 info? What is their source?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zmey Smirnoff View Post
    Georgia had at the very least 3 Skorpions. "18", "22" and "23"

    Entire GeoAF as follows

    Су-25 №№ "03", "16" + 17, 07
    Су-25КМ №№ "18", "22", "23"
    Су-25УБ №№ "20", "21"
    Ми-24П №№ "04", "07", "08"
    Ми-24В №№ "01", "03", "05", "06", "09", +02
    Ми-8 №№ "09", "10", "32" "41" + 19, 06, 46, 45
    Ми-14 № "08" + 07
    UH-1 №№ "23", "24", "25", "27" + 21, 20, 22, 26
    L-39 №№ "71". "72", "73", "74"

    Flex, who did L+K quoted or referred to when they posted the Su-27 vs Su-25 info? What is their source?
    What were their losses in air and on ground?

  18. #18
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    Have this phot of a Georgian Mi-24 destroyed on the ground. Don't know the location.


  19. #19
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    ^^
    Senaki



    ""What were their losses in air and on ground?""


    We know for a fact - 1 Mi-24 bort 05
    Everything else is unknown, until proven otherwise.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zmey Smirnoff View Post
    Georgia had at the very least 3 Skorpions. "18", "22" and "23"
    Zmey, you are absolutely correct! Never noticed that before but I got a photo of their 18+22 together and they indeed sport the antenna setup of Su-25KM. Even their HUDs seem different.

    Regarding the sources, I need to return to the store and get the mag as I did not buy it.
    Last edited by flex297; 17th October 2008 at 14:15.

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    The Georgians have been very 'discreet' about their losses... Which might indicate that they were significant... But it is hardly proof. Any info on this would be most welcome.

    UAZ,

    Do you know whether the HIND in the picture you posted was destroyed by air-power or by Russian ground forces? I expect that, had it been captured, the Russians would have hauled it off to display with the rest of their war booty but it might have been hit by artillery or similar.

    EDIT: Actually, looking at the picture again, the damage seems very localised - it hardly looks like a PGM hit. Is it possible the Georgians destroyed it as they fled in order to prevent it from falling into enemy hands?
    Regards, Ivan

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    Quote Originally Posted by echonine View Post
    No you didn't see any videos of any Su-27s is what you mean, lots of sources reported that Flankers were flying over Tskhinvali to maintain air superiority.
    You had better start posting them then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sealordlawrence View Post
    You had better start posting them then.
    Just for the clueless:

    http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...ssian%20Attack

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    Quote Originally Posted by ink View Post
    The Georgians have been very 'discreet' about their losses... Which might indicate that they were significant... But it is hardly proof. Any info on this would be most welcome.

    UAZ,

    Do you know whether the HIND in the picture you posted was destroyed by air-power or by Russian ground forces? I expect that, had it been captured, the Russians would have hauled it off to display with the rest of their war booty but it might have been hit by artillery or similar.

    EDIT: Actually, looking at the picture again, the damage seems very localised - it hardly looks like a PGM hit. Is it possible the Georgians destroyed it as they fled in order to prevent it from falling into enemy hands?

    That Hind was destroyed on the ground by recce detachment of 76th VDV division when they took Senaki AFB and surrounding military facilities.

    There are rumors that along with the Hind Mi-8, An-2 and L-39s were destroyed as well. But there is no photo evidence of such.

    Here is the photo gallery that depicts (among other things) VDV raid on Senaki. But no other GeoAF photos are found there except for the Hind.

    http://www.e1.ru/fun/photo/view_album.php?id=164473
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    The Georgians admitted the loss of 3 AN-2 airplanes on the ground at MArneuli airport (south of Tbilissi) due to a Russian Air Force bombing on August 8.

    http://www.mod.gov.ge/2008/bombing/bombing-E.html

  26. #26
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    Hey,
    as Flex297 probably didnt buy the L+K yet, I will reply.
    The text in L+K was written by RNDr. Michal J. Stolar and Miroslav Gyurosi. There is no source table in that article.

    Few notes from the article:

    08/08 - during the attack at Gori the OSA-AK/AKM shot down Su-24MR - pilot Major Vyaceslav Malkov ejected and POW, WSO was KIA.
    09/08 - Su-25 shot down by BUK-M1, pilot POW
    09/08 - Russian army spokesman confirmed shot down of Tu-22MR "Red 36" (serial number 18374) from 929th test squadron from Akhtubinsk by BUK-M1 over Chinkvali/Gori - pilot POW, WSO KIA - parachute didnt deploy
    09/08 - Russian army spokesman confirmed shot down of Su-25 (ser. no. 11580) over Dzava by BUK-M1 - pilot KIA
    and some other info (can write it here or scan the article for study)

    There is note from authors:
    The article has info as of until the middle of 09/2008 and it should be taken as a preliminary report due to a lack of info from both sides.

    Regards

    Jakub
    Webmaster of Desert Storm from air modeller´s view - over 4900 pics online
    http://www.dstorm.eu

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    I found some very interesting footage of what appears to be the unexploded warhead of a Python missile, which was found in Tskhinval. Since there are no reports or evidences of Georgia having the SPIDER SAM system, I'm thinking it may have come from a Georgian Su-25KM Scorpion. Does anyone know if the Su-25KM is capable of carrying the Python?

    http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=k_OjzEzLzsg

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    Quote Originally Posted by echonine View Post
    because that settles the debate, I assumed that you had photographic or video evidence.

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    because that settles the debate, I assumed that you had photographic or video evidence.
    Oh come on!!!

    Be reasonable. How unbelievable is it that FLANKERs were deployed to the theatre? Why must such a claim be backed up with photographic evidence? What are you after exactly, a photo of a FLANKER flying nap-of-the-earth with a sign saying "South Ossetia" in the background. Please.
    Regards, Ivan

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyboy77 View Post
    I found some very interesting footage of what appears to be the unexploded warhead of a Python missile, which was found in Tskhinval. Since there are no reports or evidences of Georgia having the SPIDER SAM system, I'm thinking it may have come from a Georgian Su-25KM Scorpion. Does anyone know if the Su-25KM is capable of carrying the Python?

    http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=k_OjzEzLzsg
    Whoa..! Really it´s a very interesting footage... Python 4/5 in georgian hands..

    thanks for share it flyboy77..!

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