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Thread: How good of a fighter was the Mirage F1?

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiG-23MLD View Post
    You are free to believe what you want, and i am not going to argue a topic already i have argued with you, if it suits you to think it was not a loss okay, for me it was and it is enough for me that.
    No point to convince you, you can live all your life thinking like that.
    If you can show me the manual of the Mirage F1 and we compare it to the MiG-23 then if you show me it was the better fighter i will change my opinion, but your position is not a technical one rather a political one and such argumenst do not work just repeat claims and counter claims, however i believe AIRWAR.ru about the superiority of the MiG-23ML over the Mirage F1
    You seem hooked on your manuals, one thing the French could never do is to produce a decent manual :diablo:

    My position is not political, I'm merely pointing out the facts which you seem to prefer to overlook. I would never be so childish as to claim one aircraft is better than another. A fighter is part of a system and that is what makes it work. Both fighters have there good and bad points. The system in place on the day is what will make one surperior to the other.
    pb::

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sens View Post
    I do see it similar. So there is no real difference in flying performance. It does depend on the tactical situation at a given moment and the pilots on the controls. Maybe you get an idea about the value of such data. A fighter without weapons and at minimum fuel is of little use in real combat.
    That is not necesarily true, since the MiG-23 has three wing sets it has three different rate of climbs, at 1km of altitude it has the same 220 m/s with both 45 deg and 72 deg wing sweep , but at 10km the 72 deg wing sweep allows it to double the 45 deg wing sweep`s rate of climb of 72 m/s.

    The Mirage F1 has no variable geometry wings, so it has not three rate of climbs and surely to have a higher rate of climb at 10km is better wing sweep of 72 deg.

    Same is with lower speeds and at 1km of altitude and at 45 deg sweep has a min turn radius of 800 meters at 500km/h an slightly bigger turn radius at 72 deg sweep and as speed increases so turn radius difference between both sweeps.


    But at 10000 meters of altitude is more convinient to have a 72 deg of wing sweep because the turn radius is smaller with that wing set.

    So they are not totally comparable.
    The airwar.ru is believeable because obviously each design has speeeds where each one is better respectively, the analysis made by them makes the MiG-23 better at speeds between 700km/h and 1100km/h.
    Last edited by MiG-23MLD; 30th September 2008 at 15:31.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mpacha View Post
    You seem hooked on your manuals, one thing the French could never do is to produce a decent manual :diablo:

    My position is not political, I'm merely pointing out the facts which you seem to prefer to overlook. I would never be so childish as to claim one aircraft is better than another. A fighter is part of a system and that is what makes it work. Both fighters have there good and bad points. The system in place on the day is what will make one surperior to the other.
    If you read this you will understand my position:

    That is not necesarily true, since the MiG-23 has three wing sets it has three different rate of climbs, at 1km of altitude it has the same 220 m/s with both 45 deg and 72 deg wing sweep , but at 10km the 72 deg wing sweep allows it to double the 45 deg wing sweep`s rate of climb of 72 m/s.

    The Mirage F1 has no variable geometry wings, so it has not three rate of climbs and surely to have a higher rate of climb at 10km is better wing sweep of 72 deg.

    Same is with lower speeds and at 1km of altitude and at 45 deg sweep has a min turn radius of 800 meters at 500km/h an slightly bigger turn radius at 72 deg sweep and as speed increases so turn radius difference between both sweeps

    .


    But at 10000 meters of altitude is more convinient to have a 72 deg of wing sweep because the turn radius is smaller with that wing set.

    So they are not totally comparable.
    The airwar.ru is believeable because obviously each design has speeeds where each one is better respectively, the analysis made by them makes the MiG-23 better at speeds between 700km/h and 1100km/h.


    i say that because you can not clearly prove what very likely the russian knew, the weaknesses and strengths of the MiG-23 design.

    For example when they tested the F-5 in Russia they concluded never to dogfight with an F-5 at low speeds of 700km/h since it will kill both the MiG-23M and MiG-21bis, both Cubans and Russians say the MiG-23 was more agile and they tell you what speeds and altitudes
    Last edited by MiG-23MLD; 30th September 2008 at 15:33.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiG-23MLD View Post
    That is not necesarily true, since the MiG-23 has three wing sets it has three different rate of climbs, at 1km of altitude it has the same 220 m/s with both 45 deg and 72 deg wing sweep , but at 10km the 72 deg wing sweep allows it to double the 45 deg wing sweep`s rate of climb of 72 m/s.

    The Mirage F1 has no variable geometry wings, so it has not three rate of climbs and surely to have a higher rate of climb at 10km is better wing sweep of 72 deg.

    Same is with lower speeds and at 1km of altitude and at 45 deg sweep has a min turn radius of 800 meters at 500km/h an slightly bigger turn radius at 72 deg sweep.


    But at 10000 meters of altitude is more convinient to have a 72 deg of wing sweep because the turn radius is smaller with that wing set.

    So they are not totally comparable.
    The airwar.ru is believeable because obviously each design has speeeds where each one is better respectively, the analysis made by them makes the MiG-23 better at speeds between 700km/h and 1100km.
    as speed increases so turn radius difference between both sweeps
    Stay serious. To manage such values at all -
    you have to be at the correct wing-setting, the correct speed, at a low fuel state and an experienced pilot on the controls to keep the optimum at that brief moment.
    There is nothing like a better speed, because 700 km/h is 700 km/h, when they ment the acceleration between 700 km/h to 1100 km/h. You are aware about some data of the Flogger, are you? That values given are in line with the 72° sweep. To get that acceleration performance, you have the correct wing-setting at all and in full burner already, which by the way is no good idea at such a low fuel load already. Normaly you are at 45° sweep at best around 700 km/h and in military. To change sweep and light-up the burner will take some seconds under such more typical conditions.
    To avoid misunderstandings, the Flogger is a high performance aircraft and none serious will underestimate that. It is no smart idea to take optimum values as granted in typical situations.
    In a "dragster race" the Flogger maybe the winner against the Mirage F1, but in a typical combat both are even and the outcome is related to the very situation at first. In my estimate the gains for the Flogger will rise at height, when as a Mirage F1 pilot I would try to stay low or medium at first.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sens View Post
    Stay serious. To manage such values at all -
    you have to be at the correct wing-setting, the correct speed, at a low fuel state and an experienced pilot on the controls to keep the optimum at that brief moment.
    There is nothing like a better speed, because 700 km/h is 700 km/h, when they ment the acceleration between 700 km/h to 1100 km/h. You are aware about some data of the Flogger, are you? That values given are in line with the 72° sweep. To get that acceleration performance, you have the correct wing-setting at all and in full burner already, which by the way is no good idea at such a low fuel load already. Normaly you are at 45° sweep at best around 700 km/h and in military. To change sweep and light-up the burner will take some seconds under such more typical conditions.
    To avoid misunderstandings, the Flogger is a high performance aircraft and none serious will underestimate that. It is no smart idea to take optimum values as granted in typical situations.
    In a "dragster race" the Flogger maybe the winner against the Mirage F1, but in a typical combat both are even and the outcome is related to the very situation at first. In my estimate the gains for the Flogger will rise at height, when as a Mirage F1 pilot I would try to stay low or medium at first.
    Man you are free to speculate, but definitively without the Mirage F1 data for each specific speed and altitude all your speculation amounts to wishes at best.

    Airwar.ru gives values based probably upon studies done by the Russian military and the flight experience of Iraqi and Cuban pilots.
    The only thing i tried to let you know was the fact wing sweep has a direct impact in flight performance in the MiG-23 flight characteristics.

    If wing sweep has a direct impact is due to specific aerodynamic basics.
    small angles of wing sweep increase lift at high AoA, that is a basic since to land the MiG-23 or F-14 these fighters will use angles around 16 deg to 14 deg, however as drag increases, the lift drag ratio makes more agile the MiG-23 with a sweep angle of 72 deg at 10km of altitude.

    however since the MiG-23 is a very stable aircraft with its wing swept at an angle of 72 deg due to the aerodynamic center of lift shift, it is probable at higher speeds than 1100km when it starts using such angle the Mirage F-1 is more agile than the MiG-23

    The Mirage has a compromise, only one wing sweep, so it is possible the MiG-23ML having similar specification but a VG wing might have the edge at speeds from 700km/h to 1100km/h as claimed by Airwar.ru.
    Last edited by MiG-23MLD; 1st October 2008 at 01:14.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiG-23MLD View Post
    Man you are free to speculate, but definitively without the Mirage F1 data for each specific speed and altitude all your speculation amounts to wishes at best.

    Airwar.ru gives values based probably upon studies done by the Russian military and the flight experience of Iraqi and Cuban pilots.
    The only thing i tried to let you know was the fact wing sweep has a direct impact in flight performance in the MiG-23 flight characteristics.

    If wing sweep has a direct impact is due to specific aerodynamic basics.
    small angles of wing sweep increase lift at high AoA, that is a basic since to land the MiG-23 or F-14 these fighters will use angles around 16 deg to 14 deg, however as drag increases, the lift drag ratio makes more agile the MiG-23 with a sweep angle of 72 deg at 10km of altitude.

    however since the MiG-23 is a very stable aircraft with its wing swept at an angle of 72 deg due to the aerodynamic center of lift shift, it is probable at higher speeds than 1100km when it starts using such angle the Mirage F-1 is more agile than the MiG-23

    The Mirage has a compromise, only one wing sweep, so it is possible the MiG-23ML having similar specification but a VG wing might have the edge at speeds from 700km/h to 1100km/h as claimed by Airwar.ru.
    Here are the people to find for a first hand account about the weapons in question.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990s_in_Angola

    http://www.geocities.com/sheepo74/angola.html
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by Sens; 1st October 2008 at 10:57.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sens View Post
    Here are the people to find for a first hand account about the weapons in question.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990s_in_Angola

    http://www.geocities.com/sheepo74/angola.html
    I read long time ago a report by portuguese pilots i think is the same pilot you posted in front an angolan MiG-23, they said the MiG-23MLs were not inv ery good state and basicly were only good at flying fast, it is possible since many claimed the MiG-23s was basicly very complex to mantain.

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    Who is the hunter and whom is the hunted?


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    Quote Originally Posted by MiG-23MLD View Post
    I read long time ago a report by portuguese pilots i think is the same pilot you posted in front an angolan MiG-23, they said the MiG-23MLs were not inv ery good state and basicly were only good at flying fast, it is possible since many claimed the MiG-23s was basicly very complex to mantain.
    The one in front of Flogger C454 with flight helmet is col. 'P', a former SAAF instructor including combat time over Angola.

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    Angolan Mig-23ML

    Hi Sens,

    Do you have any other pictures of Angolan Mig-23's?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MadRat View Post
    Who is the hunter and whom is the hunted?

    As lions and cheetahs fail when they hunt sometimes more than ten times for one succesful hunt that Mirage F1 failed no kill that day

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sens View Post
    The one in front of Flogger C454 with flight helmet is col. 'P', a former SAAF instructor including combat time over Angola.
    Thanks, for the information

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    Quote Originally Posted by LoofahBoy View Post
    Stemming from the perfect fighter discussion but not wanting to derail that thread...

    I've always been under the impression that the Mirage F1 was comparable to the F-5 in performance, but lately I've been hearing it was much better; possibly even better than the Phantom, Viggen, or Mig-23 in some respects.

    Just how good of a fighter was the Mirage F1?
    an excellent fighter way above the F-5 and cetrainly f-4 it served us well in war

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    Quote Originally Posted by IRAF_PILOT View Post
    an excellent fighter way above the F-5 and cetrainly f-4 it served us well in war
    Completely forgotten you, how were Mirages rated compared to MiG-23s? I know you dislike the 23 (same as I do) but there surely were some positive sides of it. Thanks

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    thanks flex,,to be honest due to superior radar and AIR-AIR capability the swing in air superiority to iraq happned after the arrival of the F-1EQ,,EVEN the iranians recognized that and all the successful tanker war,/ exocet via super frelon helicopters were top side cover with 2 F1EQ......
    I WOULD LOVE TO HAVE FLOWN IT BUT I STICK TO MY RB!

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    considering the F1 was pretty good in arid climates, ie africa and middle east, were sales never promoted in asia/australia?

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    Quote Originally Posted by F-111buff26 View Post
    considering the F1 was pretty good in arid climates, ie africa and middle east, were sales never promoted in asia/australia?
    When Australia was looking to replace their Mirage 3 I bet Dassault thought a F1 sale was a dead cert.
    Because sometimes in life we need a bit of fun

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  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedaykin View Post
    When Australia was looking to replace their Mirage 3 I bet Dassault thought a F1 sale was a dead cert.
    In the 80s the F1 were surpassed by the F-18, when France introduced the Mirage 2000 already.

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    Hello all.

    on the "Old Iraqi Air Force" facebook group, there's a group of veterans putting up articles about the old air force.

    A recent post has the following:

    Colonel pilot Nafie Najim Al-Jubouri.
    From The former Iraqi Air Force
    Born 1964 – KIA 2003
    He graduated from the Greek Air Academy in 1986, he was one of the best pilot student at that time, he achieved golden sword award for high skilled performance, he had more than 1300 Flight hours until 2003.
    Colonel pilot Nafie Al-Jubouri was just first lieutenant pilot in the Gulf War "Desert storm" who managed to attain one of the aerial victories by the Iraqi Air Force in his Mirage F-1 No 4021 from 79th squadron of IrAF, after midnight of January 17-1991 exactly at 0306 AM, Colonel Nafie scrambled and took off from Al-Qadisiyah air base better to know H 2 west of Iraq, flying his Mirage F-1 on the first night of the war in order to root out and shoot-down Coalition aircraft bombing Iraq, when he received target info about U.S EF-111A northwest H 2, the sky of Iraq was totally covered by white lines of fired missiles due to the air combat, And coalition F-15s formations just in every five miles around, but the Eagles was exhausted in that moment because the Iraqi FoxBat was chasing them, however Colonel pilot Nafie across the darkness of that night with flashing explosions on the ground as well as in the sky and headed directly to intercept the target, and just a few minutes later the U.S EF-111A appeared on his radar screen, after identified the target he confirmed to the Ground Control it's enemy aircraft and request permission to open fire, seconds later he got the permission and simultaneously locked the target and fired single missile type Matra 530 directly toward to the U.S EF-111A, s/n 66-0023, the F-111 tried to Jamming and avoid the missile, but the Matra 530 hit the F-111 in the cockpit sent it to the ground.
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    Interesting claim. However the US state that the EF111 with that number was lost in February not January, and on 17th Jan 3x F111s were damaged. Here's the US list http://www.rjlee.org/air/ds-aaloss/
    Last edited by sheytanelkebir; 30th October 2013 at 23:07.

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    Hopefully, this is one of many such articles. The story of IrAF the last 30 or more years from the iraqi airmen's side is something that has been consistently missing and needs be told.
    --------------
    NO to NATO
    NO to WAR!

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    problem is the dates do not match.
    Also as I had heard from other Iraqi Air Force people the MATRA 530s were completely ineffective due to the French giving away some backdoor ways of disabling them / jamming them. so the claimed use a 530 is a surprise.

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    according to the people. the dates are correct and the coallition gave an incorrect date for the aircraft loss for whatever reason.

    They attached the original log books.
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    thank you very much to your notification about the air base name "by mistake I have written Qadisiyah" However about the time and date completely correct depending on available evidence and official documents by Iraqi air force plus pilot diary book, and award document from President Saddam Hussein in that time, we can't rely on the dates of the coalition forces because they changed the date of the RAF Panavia Tornado ZA467 from January 19 to 22 January on a mission to Ar Rutbah beside Captain Sayhood shot it down and got shot down in January 19. and just the same story with U.S F-15 January 30 and the F/A-18C Hornet s/n 163096 february 5. however there is many thing will come up in near future.

    and the official award from saddam.
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    according to this letter he took off from Saad airbase (H2). He was guided by the GCI from Saad airbase in the second air defence sector towards 2 targets and shot one down. on the second day, 18th January the air defence command verified the shot down and awarded the kill to the pilot, as well as to the ground controllers. The pilot also flew interception sorties on the 18th and 20th January but did not manage to shoot down any aircraft on those days.
    Last edited by sheytanelkebir; 31st October 2013 at 01:41.

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    I have friends & relatives who were in the British armed forces, & who fought in wars from the Falklands to Afghanistan, including the 1990-91 war against Iraq. I have some understanding of how things work. I cannot imagine a faking of dates of an aircraft loss happening, for two reasons.

    Firstly, it's too difficult. Everyone in the local RAF contingent would know which date the aircraft went out & didn't come back. This isn't a totalitarian country. It's not something which could be suppressed. It can't be justified on national security grounds. Somebody would have leaked it - & nobody has.

    Secondly, what's the point? You need a motive, & there is none.

    There is, however, a motive for Iraq claiming wongly that an aircraft was lost on such-and-such a date, if it enables a match with an Iraqi claim of an air-air victory.

    Remember this: if all parties are equally credible, the owner of the aircraft is the one to be believed about which aircraft it lost, & when. In the case of any disagreement, the owner of the aircraft should be believed, unless there is very strong evidence indeed to the contrary. Claims of shoot downs are not strong evidence. Nor are pilots log books. These are evidence that a pilot believed he shot something down - & that is an area where honest mistakes are possible, & very common indeed. Nobody makes a mistake about whether one of a few aircraft returned from a mission or not. You are putting up something which may be a mistake, in an area where mistakes are common, against something which requires deliberate lying, & a conspiracy sustained for over 20 years to sustain that lie - but with a very weak motive, at most, for the lie.

    I used to have a Bulgarian girlfriend, a journalist with Bulgarian state radio. When I told her that unlike her MPs, ours did not have any kind of security (no police escorts, no bodyguards) except for a very few senior ones, she thought I was deluded. Telling her that I'd drunk with my local MP in a pub where I knew everyone present, that I'd met the MP cycling alone in the countryside, etc., didn't convince her. She was sure the bodyguards were there, but I wasn't seeing them. I know - absolutely, certainly - that I'm right, & that she was projecting her own experience onto a different situation, but I couldn't get her to see that. I think it's the same here. You grew up in a society in which the sort of fakery you attribute to the RAF was possible, so you cannot accept that it didn't happen in this case.

    Oh, there are plenty of officials here who'll lie if it's in their own interests, but this isn't a case where that's likely. Too many people know the truth, & nobody stands to gain enough. Look at the sort of trivial stuff that kicks up a media storm here, & imagine the pleasure the press would take in publishing "RAF lied about death of Tornado crew! Grieving families tell their story.". And so on . . .
    Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
    Justinian

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    Well I cannot comment specifically on how the Mirage F1 performs, I can say that I think it is one of the nicest looking fighters out there. The F1 has very clean lines and manages to mesh form with functionality quite well.

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    he mentioned the story of ZA-467 which was initially written as being lost on the 19th January and later amended to 22nd January? (did this really happen?)

    Nobody claims a "coverup"... but surely there's a mistake somewhere in a record (I would agree that its probably the Iraqi record that is at error on the date in this instance...).

    I agree that the side which LOST the aircraft will have a more accurate knowledge to confirm the loss... which really should apply to BOTH sides

    will continue to keep a track of the "Iraqi story" since its only now that Iraqi veterans are starting to come out to discuss them. Certainly adds a much needed "other perspective" to the stale 1991 gulf war "story".


    On the iraqi military forum there's also an article about the loss of the 2 Mirage F1s which were shot down whilst trying to bomb saudi oil facilities. Many interesting details and anecdotes there, including pilot names, details of several aborted attempts at flying the missions etc... it was called "mission impossible" http://iraqimilitary.org/forums/view...php?f=7&t=1563
    Last edited by sheytanelkebir; 31st October 2013 at 15:17.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sheytanelkebir View Post
    he mentioned the story of ZA-467 which was initially written as being lost on the 19th January and later amended to 22nd January? (did this really happen?)

    Nobody claims a "coverup"... but surely there's a mistake somewhere in a record (I would agree that its probably the Iraqi record that is at error on the date in this instance...).

    I agree that the side which LOST the aircraft will have a more accurate knowledge to confirm the loss... which really should apply to BOTH sides

    will continue to keep a track of the "Iraqi story" since its only now that Iraqi veterans are starting to come out to discuss them. Certainly adds a much needed "other perspective" to the stale 1991 gulf war "story".


    On the iraqi military forum there's also an article about the loss of the 2 Mirage F1s which were shot down whilst trying to bomb saudi oil facilities. Many interesting details and anecdotes there, including pilot names, details of several aborted attempts at flying the missions etc... it was called "mission impossible" http://iraqimilitary.org/forums/view...php?f=7&t=1563
    Interesting website, always valuable to get information from a different point of view. Would I be right in reading via the power of 'google translate', that the two pilots were Capt Shahid Ali Hussein Fadel and Capt Mohammed Salim Ahmed from No89 Sqn? Brave men considering the odds against them and must have known that they were unlikely to return.

    Regards,

    Steve

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    Quote Originally Posted by sheytanelkebir View Post
    he mentioned the story of ZA-467 which was initially written as being lost on the 19th January and later amended to 22nd January? (did this really happen?)...
    Perhaps someone is confusing ZA467 (lost Jan 22nd, both crew dead) with ZA396 (shot down night of Jan 19th/20th, both crew captured - loss attributed to SA-7), & imagining a change to the date.
    Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
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    Quote Originally Posted by swerve View Post
    Perhaps someone is confusing ZA467 (lost Jan 22nd, both crew dead) with ZA396 (shot down night of Jan 19th/20th, both crew captured - loss attributed to SA-7), & imagining a change to the date.
    No it's a claim that been around for a while. The Iraqi claim had the crew of the Tornado killed, so to make fact fit the claim, the RAF losses (ZA467) have been claimed to have been misreported by the MOD to allow for the reported deaths of the aircrew on the 22nd. This misreporting apparently done to hide the 'fact' that the Tornado was shot down by an Iraqi fighter.

    The Iraqi claim has to be for the 19th, because the intercepting MiG29 is reported as being shot down by USAF F.15C's soon after. So in the face of only one Tornado lost on the 19th, ZA396 was initially claimed as a victim of the MiG29, despite other evidence to the contrary (not least the fact both aircrew survived as POWs), it has gradually changed to ZA467, with the date differences being dismissed as either a mistake or lie, both of which are hard to credit.

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    That makes no sense, as the RAF would have to know how ZA467 was lost and that the crew was killed. If the crew could still be alive, the whole lie could be killed by the Iraqis instantly. So it makes no sense at all.
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