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Thread: F-5 OPERATORS & FORMER OPERATORS.....

  1. #1
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    Arrow F-5 OPERATORS & FORMER OPERATORS.....

    ... are, if I'm right, 37 in total !

    but I'm still searching for pictures of F-5' s of the Air Forces of

    LIBYA, PARAGUAY, and PAKISTAN

    Please tell me where (on Internet) I can find some good views
    of such rarities....

    If you are interested, I HAVE FOR YOU a splendid colour photo
    of a Belgian Air Force T-33
    (see my previous thread)

  2. #2
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    I got 39

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    Libyan - with the old Royalist markings

    Last edited by googeler; 5th June 2007 at 16:25.

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    Paraguay and Pakistan did not operate the Northrop F-5.

    Pakistani may have flown and maintained F-5s as 'mercenaries' for other countries.


    Hendrik.

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    Austria
    Bahrain
    Botswana
    Brazil
    Canada
    Chile
    China (war booty from Vietnam)
    Ethiopia
    Greece
    Honduras
    Indonesia
    Iran
    Israel (evaluation)
    Jordan
    Kenya
    Korea
    Libya
    Malaysia
    Mexico
    Morocco
    Netherlands
    Norway
    Philippines
    Portugal (T-38 only)
    Saudi Arabia
    Singapore
    Spain
    Sudan
    Switzerland
    Taiwan
    Thailand
    Tunisia
    Turkey
    USA
    USSR (war booty from Vietnam)
    Venezuela
    Vietnam
    Vietnam South
    Yemen

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    It's well known that the communist Vietnamese operated, in service, many of the Huey and Cobra helicopters captured after their victory in 1975. Did they ever try to put in service any of the F-5s or the Cessna A-37s that they also captured?

    How many intact F-5 and A-37 servicable airfames did they capture anyway?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Levsha View Post
    It's well known that the communist Vietnamese operated, in service, many of the Huey and Cobra helicopters captured after their victory in 1975. Did they ever try to put in service any of the F-5s or the Cessna A-37s that they also captured?

    How many intact F-5 and A-37 servicable airfames did they capture anyway?

    Yes, they used both... its well documented.

    http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/f5_40.html
    Last edited by Entropy; 5th June 2007 at 20:54.

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    The Sowjets even named them MiG-28, but they were all shot down by awesome Tomcats ... or do I mix fiction and reality?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Entropy View Post
    Yes, they used both... its well documented.

    http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/f5_40.html
    Thanks for the link.

    Interesting comments on how the Vietnamese viewed the F-5 favourably in comparision with the MiG-21. I believe that the Soviets also found that the F-5 had no problems in dealing with the MiG-21 in WVR combat during comparitive tests carried out on F-5s, which had been passed on by the communist Vietnamese government.

  10. #10
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    Interesting comments on how the Vietnamese viewed the F-5 favourably in comparision with the MiG-21. I believe that the Soviets also found that the F-5 had no problems in dealing with the MiG-21 in WVR combat during comparitive tests carried out on F-5s, which had been passed on by the communist Vietnamese government.
    The Ethiopian Airforce operated F-5A/B/E against the Somali Air force MIG-21s during the 1977-78 war and F-5Es came out vicotrious with a win of 24-0. During and after the war, the Soviets delivered large quantity of MIG-21bis fighters. Ethiopian pilots conducted mock dogfights against each other and with Cuban/Soviet pilots. In all the scenarios, the F-5 won in a large margin, 11 to 1.

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    A Mirage III is able to physically dominate the MiG-21, too, but that doesn't say much about the Mirage III or MiG-21 in general. They are just designed around disimilar flight envelopes.

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    Sometimes depends on whose flying it or how it is flown. Before the Shah fell, the Iranian Air Force had an exercise with their F-5s against Pakistani F-6s. The Pakistanis came out on top, no mean feat since the IRIAF pilots were US trained.

    Pakistan does not have an F-5. They have an "A-5", which is something different completely as the "F-6" is.
    pb::

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    The MiG-21 is mostly inferior in WVR dogfight, especially under third world conditions (no dense radar network and ground controlled intercept). That is not surprising given the design considerations of the MiG-21 and the F-5E. The -21 was designed with Mach2 in mind, as short range interceptor.

    Of course, well flown MiG-21 can outperform any F-5E and vice versa, like always, but for the requirements of a third world country the F-5 is much better suited, in my opinion the best ever supersonic fighter for those conditions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schorsch View Post
    The MiG-21 is mostly inferior in WVR dogfight, especially under third world conditions (no dense radar network and ground controlled intercept). That is not surprising given the design considerations of the MiG-21 and the F-5E. The -21 was designed with Mach2 in mind, as short range interceptor.

    Of course, well flown MiG-21 can outperform any F-5E and vice versa, like always, but for the requirements of a third world country the F-5 is much better suited, in my opinion the best ever supersonic fighter for those conditions.
    Actually the MiG-21 can hold itself very well in WVR, but the early radar blows in low alt, with ground clutter and all those issues. The F-5 on the other hand, is never a high flyer, always fighting down low, not a good situation for the MiG-21's radar.
    pb::

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    Quote Originally Posted by flex297 View Post
    Austria
    Bahrain
    Botswana
    Brazil
    Canada
    Chile
    China (war booty from Vietnam)
    Ethiopia
    Greece
    Honduras
    Indonesia
    Iran
    Israel (evaluation)
    Jordan
    Kenya
    Korea
    Libya
    Malaysia
    Mexico
    Morocco
    Netherlands
    Norway
    Philippines
    Portugal (T-38 only)
    Saudi Arabia
    Singapore
    Spain
    Sudan
    Switzerland
    Taiwan
    Thailand
    Tunisia
    Turkey
    USA
    USSR (war booty from Vietnam)
    Venezuela
    Vietnam
    Vietnam South
    Yemen
    You could add Germany which uses the T-38

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    Quote Originally Posted by crobato View Post
    Actually the MiG-21 can hold itself very well in WVR, but the early radar blows in low alt, with ground clutter and all those issues. The F-5 on the other hand, is never a high flyer, always fighting down low, not a good situation for the MiG-21's radar.
    You are right. The MiG-21 has after all more power.
    But I think most thrid world a2a combats take place below 20000ft, where the enemy's fighterbombers and targets are. Radar for both is not suitable for independend search for hostile fighters. Either they make contact visually, or a ground station gives them a rough vector.

  17. #17
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    Paraguay & Pakistan

    As far as I am aware Paraguay never used the F-5. They were offered surplus aircraft from Taiwan but did not take up the offer. The cost of refurbishment and operation was considerd to be too high

    I belive that there are some reports of the Pakistan operation of the F-5 during the 1971 war with India. These have been variously reported as being on loan from Jordan, Libya or Saudi Arabia. I believe it was a small number of aircraft if they ever went to Pakistan and have yet to see any confirmation of their operation.
    Dave Charles
    Historian 607 (County of Durham) Squadron
    Chair North East Land Sea Air Museums (NELSAM)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderbird167 View Post
    I belive that there are some reports of the Pakistan operation of the F-5 during the 1971 war with India. These have been variously reported as being on loan from Jordan, Libya or Saudi Arabia. I believe it was a small number of aircraft if they ever went to Pakistan and have yet to see any confirmation of their operation.
    Officially, Pakistan never operated the F-5. Unofficially, lots of stuff goes on but dont hold your breath for any pics

    The closest Pakistan ever came to officially operating an F-5 variant was when it was offered manufacturing rights for the Tigershark in pakistan back in the mid eighties. The PAF of course opted for the proven F-16 and the F-20 never went anywhere. Would have been an interesting plane if it was still alive.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by fabe View Post
    You could add Germany which uses the T-38
    Technically yes, but they wear US markings, if I am not mistaken.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flex297 View Post
    Technically yes, but they wear US markings, if I am not mistaken.
    They do, they are based along with the Tornados at Holloman in New Mexico.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schorsch View Post
    You are right. The MiG-21 has after all more power.
    But I think most thrid world a2a combats take place below 20000ft, where the enemy's fighterbombers and targets are. Radar for both is not suitable for independend search for hostile fighters. Either they make contact visually, or a ground station gives them a rough vector.
    F-5A and F-5E does not really have a radar as you know it in the common sense. What they have originally is a ranging radar, which is useful for guns and bombing. Few small fighters actually have a longer range radar for airsearch in the sixties (think Starfighter and later MiG-21s). The MiG-21Fs and the Mirage IIIs, like the ones the Israelis use, all originally had ranging radars only. (Later upgraded with radars with true ranging air search capability late in their life cycle).

    The F-5's nose is an awful place to put a radar---right in front of two guns. The guns limit the size of the radar you can put on the nose, as well as the space for the back equipment, and all that vibration behind the firewall does wonders. And all that muzzle flash should help with the pilot's vision too.
    Last edited by crobato; 7th June 2007 at 07:25.
    pb::

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    Smile 'German' F-5 !!

    Quote Originally Posted by flex297 View Post
    Technically yes, but they wear US markings, if I am not mistaken.
    Yes, you're right !!

    E.K.

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    Exclamation The Northrop F-5 & Cessna A-37 in VPAF service

    Quote Originally Posted by Entropy View Post
    Yes, they used both... its well documented.

    http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/f5_40.html
    from the article published in Air International/March 1991 p 135 > 138

    Deliveries of US-supplied aircraft between 23 Oct & 12 Dec 1972, had included
    118 Northrop F-5s and 90 Cessna A-37s, and increasing the strenght of the
    these types to 153 & 249 respectively.
    Among the newly-delivered F-5s were more than 50 of the advanced E-models.

    .... among more than 1.100 SVNAF aicraft abandoned in South Vietnam following the surrender were no less than 87 F-5s (including 27 F-5Es) and
    95 A-37s.
    According to USAF sources, 26 F-5s (including 22 F-5Es) & 27 A-37s were
    among that managed to escape to U-Tapao RTAB, Thailand, between
    April 22 and 30.

    (with many little photo's)

    with friendly greetings,
    E.K.

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    Lightbulb F-5 operators & former operators

    many thanks to all, for your interesting replies.

    Meanwhile I've found :
    http://www.is.northropgrumman.com/pr...cts/f5/f5.html

    .. >> in fact THE official website for a.o. the F-5s.... !
    well, there is a mention of only 25 'international' users ...!

    comparing with all your other data's, I conclude so:

    OK for Sudan, Israel, Portugal, South Vietnam,
    and +- for Pakistan & Paraguay,

    but what about for China & USSR ??

    friendly yours,

    E.K.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crobato View Post
    F-5A and F-5E does not really have a radar as you know it in the common sense. What they have originally is a ranging radar, which is useful for guns and bombing. Few small fighters actually have a longer range radar for airsearch in the sixties ....
    F-5A didn't have a radar (just a radar ranging gunsight), but F-5E does. It was designed from the start to have a real radar, as a cheap air-superiority fighter & has (or had - many of those still in service have had newer radars fitted) the Emerson AN/APQ-159, a modest set, but a lot more than just a ranging radar. Note that the F-5E is not a 1960s fighter: development began in 1970, & it first flew in 1972. Radars were standard on fighters by then.

    The designation of the F-5E is misleading. It has far less commonality with the F-5A than the designation suggests, & few statements that are true about the F-5A are true about the F-5E. It should have been given a different number, not just letter.
    Last edited by swerve; 7th June 2007 at 09:47.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KERVYN View Post
    many thanks to all, for your interesting replies.

    Meanwhile I've found :
    http://www.is.northropgrumman.com/pr...cts/f5/f5.html

    .. >> in fact THE official website for a.o. the F-5s.... !
    well, there is a mention of only 25 'international' users ...!

    comparing with all your other data's, I conclude so:

    OK for Sudan, Israel, Portugal, South Vietnam,
    and +- for Pakistan & Paraguay,

    but what about for China & USSR ??

    friendly yours,

    E.K.
    They're not going to list countries which they didn't sell any to, & which received a few surreptitiously, are they?

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    Quote Originally Posted by KERVYN View Post
    ... are, if I'm right, 37 in total !

    but I'm still searching for pictures of F-5' s of the Air Forces of

    LIBYA, PARAGUAY, and PAKISTAN
    I'm pretty sure, although not certain, some of these Libyan F5's were donated to Turkish Air Force in mid 70's, possibly after the Qaddafi came to power and US ambargo had started.

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    Smile Northropgrumman website

    Quote Originally Posted by swerve View Post
    They're not going to list countries which they didn't sell any to, & which received a few surreptitiously, are they?
    Indeed... it's a good point of view !!
    E.K.

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    PAKISTAN AIR FORCE F-5's

    Name:  f5arrive.jpg
Views: 1401
Size:  30.4 KB

    in 2007, it seemed impossible to find photo's of such F-5's ...!

    and indeed, I could find only this (bad) painting !

    from ;http://www.pafmuseum.com.pk/historic...n-Pakistan.htm
    (and, if I remember well ... they were used in fact AFTER that war ... )


    maybe YOU have better views ? ...

    friendly yours,

    Etienne

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    Are the following users still operating F-5:

    Indonesia
    Malayisia
    Jordan

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