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Thread: Team Tempest Future Fighter from the UK

  1. #1
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    Team Tempest Future Fighter from the UK

    The UK future fighter project will feature, swarming weapons, DEW, virtual cockpit and to fly alongside F35 and Typhoon in 2035.
    Last edited by mrmalaya; 16th July 2018 at 11:32.

  2. #2
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    Two things come to mind:

    1) How much will it look like FOAS

    2) What is the betting that this life size model will be the actual FOAS RCS test model redressed

    Because sometimes in life we need a bit of fun

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXNAp3mKepc

  3. #3
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    It actually looks like a modernised Replica with A2A nose, and single seat cockpit from what i can tell.

    Now we get a better view it doesn't.....

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    Pictures courtesy of Tim Robinson of the RAeS on twitter.
    Last edited by mrmalaya; 16th July 2018 at 11:58.

  4. #4
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    Just watched the reveal, clearly derived from REPLICA which is in itself developed as part of FOAS. The tail looks exactly the same and the nose looks re-profiled so it can actually fit a radar. Intakes look a bit bigger but that could just be the angle, there is no way BAE Systems would have started from scratch on this!

    That being said before everybody gets excited this is a looooong way off being a real thing as it stands. BAE Systems could do a modern version of the EAP and build a flying tech demonstrator pulling through engines and systems from Typhoon without too much fuss.
    Because sometimes in life we need a bit of fun

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXNAp3mKepc

  5. #5
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    If you ask me, and based on what has been said in the run up to this reveal, the airframe is designed so as not to have to reinvent the wheel (thus raising costs and the chance of delay). I think the top view undermines the idea that it's just a warmed over Replica though:


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    Again from Tim Robinson on twitter.

    The nose is noticeably flattened from the front.

    During the ongoing briefing AVM Rochelle is quoted as saying: "Funding is real. We are working at pace."
    Last edited by mrmalaya; 16th July 2018 at 12:13.

  6. #6
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    The broader Combat Air Strategy is published in handout form here:

    https://assets.publishing.service.go...fold_PRINT.PDF

    With full document here:

    https://www.gov.uk/government/public...for-the-future

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    Last edited by mrmalaya; 16th July 2018 at 12:18.

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    -RR are aiming to push thrust to weight and power generation to new levels with their engine. They also are planning to use magnets within the engine to convert kinetic to electrical energy.

    -IOC is aimed at 2035 with the planning finalised by 2020.

    -MBDA will put DEW, Swarming weapons and Hypersonic weapons into Tempest:
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    Courtesy of Tim Robinson on twitter.
    Last edited by mrmalaya; 16th July 2018 at 12:31.

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    Interesting... however how likely is this to ever materialise as a pure British project in mind of the Brexit and after France and Germany decided to go ahead with their joint effort?
    Last edited by Deino; 16th July 2018 at 13:32.
    ...

    He was my North, my South, my East and West,
    My working week and my Sunday rest,
    My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
    I thought that love would last forever; I was wrong.

    The stars are not wanted now; put out every one:
    Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun;
    Pour away the ocean and sweep up the woods:
    For nothing now can ever come to any good.
    -------------------------------------------------
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  9. #9
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    Positioning for partnership can reap the benefits of partner's investment in technology and huge potential for future sales.

    But positioning for partnership requires government commitment, which may be hard to obtain from politicians who can only see as far as the next election.

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    I wonder if synergies can be achieved with the TFX, given that BAE is also heavily involved with that project too. Although clearly the requirements between the RAF and TAF will differ considerably, I can't help feeling there should have been some consideration given to the TFX project used as the basis; however, if any of the reports are to be believed, the REPLICA/FOAS is being used as a basis for the TFX in itself. Seems like another Typhoon vs Rafale story in the making. Is there potential for any other nation outside the EU as a collaborating partner on the Tempest?

  11. #11
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    Wasn't there some talk on attempts to maybe include Japan?
    ...

    He was my North, my South, my East and West,
    My working week and my Sunday rest,
    My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
    I thought that love would last forever; I was wrong.

    The stars are not wanted now; put out every one:
    Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun;
    Pour away the ocean and sweep up the woods:
    For nothing now can ever come to any good.
    -------------------------------------------------
    W.H.Auden (1945)

  12. #12
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    Sweden and Italy are also unaligned (and I'm not clear on why the potential partners need to be outside of the EU)?

    This project is funded and the R&D is already underway to finalise the best balance between stealth and all of the other requirements. It incorporates work that has already been concluded by the team and will see Typhoon upgraded with technology developed for this programme and vice versa. It is very much a Typhoon replacement and Japan now has the choice of the US and the UK for it's collaborative partner.


    I personally see lots of ways in which efforts to reduce risk and cost have been planned into the programme.

  13. #13
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    The most important is that it pulls the Brit industry (and their EU partner) out of the ever lasting marrasm of never doing something that has to be fielded. Systems need an airframe and a user to get funded.
    It might not fly at Mach 3 but it very we'll be at last airborne for real in 10 years

  14. #14
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    yes on that note, the emphasis appears to be on the systems, weapons and connectivity rather than making it a Mach3 supercruiser.

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    I'd be surprised if Europe, ie EU and UK, can afford two production fighters. I think it can afford single prototypes of two designs followed by a production run of, say, 500 aeroplanes. This Tempest design is very much a marker for the post Brexit future.
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  16. #16
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    The mock up looks pretty sweet sporting that WWII era "night roundel". Going with a traditional layout (not tailless) makes it much more feasible since they won't need to prototype new TVC dependent control schemes - ditto with the system of systems approach. It's still going to need very good project management to see the light of day though.

    From a technical aspect the most intriguing thing to me so far is the inlet. There is no diverter nor a DSI bump. I remember reading an article last year about Rolls Royce discussing the possibility of designing an engine which can handle turbulent and uneven flow. This seems to fit well with that...but a lot can change over 17 years.

  17. #17
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    It's not very clear, but here is the RR graphic on the engine with mention of distortion tolerance:

    Click image for larger version. 

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  18. #18
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    That incredible moment when the coverage of the unveiling of "Team Tempest" and the UK´s Combat air strategy is vastly better done by the chaps of the Key Publishing Forum than by the likes of Janes, Key Aero, AW and Flight Global...

  19. #19
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    That schematic of the RR engine shows what appear to be bypass tubes aft of the fan stage, although it seems these are part of the active heat management system, probably feeding fresh bleed air into the gap between the inner and outer casing of the engine, shown in the figure. I also quite like how the electric motors are integrated in line with axis of the engine, rather than as an accessory appendage. Would be interesting to hear more details about the 'electric' power element.
    Last edited by Alpha Bravo; 16th July 2018 at 15:51.

  20. #20
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    To be fair this has come rather out of the blue so it is hardly surprising that the specialist press has to play catch up.
    Because sometimes in life we need a bit of fun

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXNAp3mKepc

  21. #21
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    I get the sense they are all keeping their powder dry in preparation for some articles.

    It has also become apparent that the design features large bolt on pods and a weapons bay full of UCAVs amongst other things....

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  22. #22
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    Effort done for IR signature reduction. The engine ducts air after the fan stage to the rear, bypassing the afterburner. The special nozzle design suggests that this relative cold air is then used to reduce exhaust gas IR signature.

    A little strange because the fan air temperature is about the same at the front as at the end (before potential afterburner). So for some reason IR reduction of potential afterburning flight would also taken special care of. Anyhow much emphasis on IR reduction seems to be made.
    Talking about afterburner, I'm not even sure it has one. Maybe all emphasis is on an air mixing nozzle but why then take the fan air from so far at the front? Would the hot core heat up the fan air that much on its way trough the bypass duct?

    The removal of the gearbox and integration into the internal one for a flatter profile is also emphasized. Flatness seems to be a positive feature after all.

  23. #23
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    Orion said:

    I'd be surprised if Europe, ie EU and UK, can afford two production fighters. I think it can afford single prototypes of two designs followed by a production run of, say, 500 aeroplanes. This Tempest design is very much a marker for the post Brexit future.
    or maybe the british didn't like that the french and germans let them out of the game and try to show they have something to offer... in any case, do the british have the political will to develop a whole fighter all by themselves? I seriously doubt it.. what's more, with what money? with budgets reductions, they couldn't even afford the last batch of the Typhoon, had to size down RN and RAF, have to order the F-35 (and make it fly) with money one can't be sure they'll be able to find, and yet they'd have the cash to develop a whole new aircraft?

    the germans and french have agreed to define exactly what they want the new platform to be, and not let any new "partner" get in and interfere with the requirements.. once it's done, they'll propose the deal "as is" to others (ok guys, here's what we'll do, do you want to play with us on it?), ensuring they know in which direction they go and don't waste time in negotiations trying to please too many politicians with contradicting interests

    though it looks nice, chances are, this mock up doesn't go much further than what it is now...

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    PeeD said: Talking about afterburner, I'm not even sure it has one. Maybe all emphasis is on an air mixing nozzle but why then take the fan air from so far at the front?
    It looks like it has a ring of injector nozzles for reheat to me. I can't imagine what else that structure in the back would be. And, if you want to cool the engine's exhaust, you do need to pull from the fan. The compressor actually heats air up quite a bit.

    TooCool_12f said: ...though it looks nice, chances are, this mock up doesn't go much further than what it is now...
    I kind of feel the same way. It needs enough budget set aside and then very good project management to keep things on schedule and within that budget - and so largely out of sight. The more political exposure it gets the more political infighting there will likely be and the less chance this project has to make it to completion. A single partner could be a good thing. But the partner nation must be equally committed and have appropriate technological and industrial expertise or it will just be a liability.

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    One week before Farnborough BAE Systems briefed a group of journalists on future concepts. It was clear that a number of configurations are still under consideration to meet the manned/optionally manned platform that will be developed to meet this requirement. One looked more like an F-35, another more like a YF-23, one like something from Star Wars and one was a much smaller 'arrowhead planform'. The latter two were admitted to be 'less likely'.

    I don't think that this mock-up is necessarily going to be representative of the final aircraft, and nor does that matter. The airframe is the easy bit, and I suspect that the £2 Bn announced will be spent on the clever stuff - some of which is already under development, and much of which one can expect to see first used on the Typhoon - certainly including the Striker II helmet, probably including the radar, perhaps including wide area displays, wearable cockpit technology, and a new DASS, as well as haptic gesture recognition, eye tracking and other clever technologies.

    And we shouldn't forget that the answer to this won't simply be an aircraft, but rather a system of systems that includes a manned/optionally manned platform and a number of other unmanned platforms and weapons.

    Though Airbus came up with a concept configuration some time ago, that really is the easy bit, and does not indicate that Airbus and Dassault necessarily have any technological lead. Indeed I suspect that BAE Systems and its partners may be further ahead in certain respects, though naturally not all. There may well be some cross fertilisation between this programme and the TAI TFX and the Japanese ATD-X.
    Last edited by Jackonicko; 16th July 2018 at 22:55.

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    It have more similar concept with PAK-FA then with F-35 or F-22.

    For example engines are spaced and intake doesn't have long S-duct, one or maybe two central weapon bays, tail sting with some sensor, some sensors in wing edge.

  27. #27
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    I wouldn't assume anything about intake configuration from what is a cheaply built model, designed to backdrop Gavin Williamson's announcement of the new Combat Air strategy, and to be an LO platform of the right kind of size to be broadly representative of what the company is looking at.

    It is not a mock up. The business case hasn't even been made, and Team Tempest is still looking at potential partnerships. The final configuration is far from being finalised, and the definitive aircraft could still look quite different.

    Charles Woodburn, the chief executive of BAE Systems, said that: "The important thing about the new concept is that it will illustrate a direction of travel."

    Williamson said that: "It shows our allies that we are open to working together to protect the skies in an increasingly threatening future – and this concept model is just a glimpse into what the future could look like."

    And the series of plan views of other possible concept designs shown to journalists at Warton included two aircraft which clearly had engine/intake configurations that were very far from 'straight through.'

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    One of the configurations......
    Last edited by Jackonicko; 18th July 2018 at 16:04.

  28. #28
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    They are displaying routes and directions. This is valuable and a great effort at the attention of the public.

    @PeeD: Regarding the engine model:
    Don't forget the starter generator where the air is sourced:
    - lot of heat that is better routed away before the high pressure compressor (I see this as an innovation not seen before). The air is sucked by the pressure diff at the eng outlet (speed diff in fact).
    - what is funny is that you could play with shock compression
    - what is funny is that you could use this as a better way to get your stream neutral (if charged obviously).
    Last edited by TomcatViP; 16th July 2018 at 23:05.

  29. #29
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    Wasn't there some talk on attempts to maybe include Japan?
    wow deinosaurus, you really only do follow Chinese aviation and nothing else.

    It was mentioned several times on this first page that Japan quit
    they are now directly asking the US to help design it with them with Northrop and Lockheed making offers.

  30. #30
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    Some facts from FlightGlobal:

    https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...ighter-450327/

    Japan is definitely on the list of potential partners, plus details on timelines and funding with business case to be complete in a year.

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