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Thread: Switzerland fighter replacement plan restarted

  1. #31
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    Before we talk about what fighter the Swiss could buy we need to consider the main barrier to it happening the GSoA (Group for a Switzerland Without an Army), they have enough members now to get a referendum on blocking any fighter procurement. It was them who got the referendum to block the Gripen procurement which was also their first victory.

    With their level of support they will almost certainly get another referendum making this a public political issue! Any choice will have to be sold to the Swiss public in a manner that can deflect any arguments made by the GSoA!
    Because sometimes in life we need a bit of fun

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXNAp3mKepc

  2. #32
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    Any country is welcome to setup their own MRO&U and depot facilities. They can even shut off their national ALIS feed but will have to be willing to then stock their own parts. Without JPO ALIS feedback the PHM will be less accurate and they will have to start doing a lot more preventative and manual maintenance.

    All of these things cost more money, but they are free to do it.
    For the maintenance issue, please remind that this is a factor of cost ( low cost - how awkward?). If Swiss want to be fully autonomous... Yes they can!
    It seems that we agree that the F-35 would be outright much more expensive than its counterparts to achieve the same level of operational autonomy then.

  3. #33
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    Before we talk about what fighter the Swiss could buy we need to consider the main barrier to it happening the GSoA (Group for a Switzerland Without an Army), they have enough members now to get a referendum on blocking any fighter procurement. It was them who got the referendum to block the Gripen procurement which was also their first victory.

    With their level of support they will almost certainly get another referendum making this a public political issue! Any choice will have to be sold to the Swiss public in a manner that can deflect any arguments made by the GSoA!
    This time, the referendum will happen before the final decision by the government. Swiss people will vote on the whole concept of air defense modernisation and maximum budget, not on any aircraft type or number of aircraft.

  4. #34
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    This time, the referendum will happen before the final decision by the government. Swiss people will vote on the whole concept of air defense modernisation and maximum budget, not on any aircraft type or number of aircraft.
    If I read you correcly, (a) a fighter purchase (b) the maximum to be spent on it would need to be approved before going any further. That is a LOT more sensible than going through a complex and expensive selection process then asking the electorate if it was all going to be a complete waste of time and money.
    Sum ergo cogito

  5. #35
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    It seems that we agree that the F-35 would be outright much more expensive than its counterparts to achieve the same level of operational autonomy then.
    That's the price you pay, pun intended, in order to lower the lifetime O&S costs.
    "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

  6. #36
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    Yes. The referendum will happen in spring 2020, while the aircraft and SAM system will be chosen at the end of the same year by the government. I'm actually not sure if the budget itself will be voted on, but there isn't much room here unless cut are done in othe critical part of the army.

  7. #37
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    Yes. The referendum will happen in spring 2020, while the aircraft and SAM system will be chosen at the end of the same year by the government. I'm actually not sure if the budget itself will be voted on, but there isn't much room here unless cut are done in othe critical part of the army.
    Thats a huge plus for the most capable (and expensive) platforms. With the Swiss MOD not having to go through a gruelling referendum AFTER the platform has been chosen they can aim for the most capable ones, unlike the last time when they choose the cheapest.

  8. #38
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    12th July 2018, 16:55 #33 Spyhawk Spyhawk is offline
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    Before we talk about what fighter the Swiss could buy we need to consider the main barrier to it happening the GSoA (Group for a Switzerland Without an Army), they have enough members now to get a referendum on blocking any fighter procurement. It was them who got the referendum to block the Gripen procurement which was also their first victory.

    With their level of support they will almost certainly get another referendum making this a public political issue! Any choice will have to be sold to the Swiss public in a manner that can deflect any arguments made by the GSoA!
    This time, the referendum will happen before the final decision by the government. Swiss people will vote on the whole concept of air defense modernisation and maximum budget, not on any aircraft type or number of aircraft.
    Thanks I remember now, in effect they are banking on the Swiss public baulking at the idea of no air defences whatsoever!
    Because sometimes in life we need a bit of fun

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXNAp3mKepc

  9. #39
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    With the Swiss MOD not having to go through a gruelling referendum AFTER the platform has been chosen they can aim for the most capable ones, unlike the last time when they choose the cheapest.
    I think that what aircraft and SAM are chosen will depend on:

    (a) entire budget for SAM's and aircraft (I assume the 8 billion Swiss franc spend mentioned is not set in stone)

    (b) cost of minimum acceptable performance demanded from both systems

    I guess the Swiss armed forces will then argue between themselves for the best air defence system at the cost of a better performing fighter and vice versa.
    Sum ergo cogito

  10. #40
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    The procedure of acquisition is actually detailed in the official report (section 2.6.1, in French).

    2.6.1 Evaluation
    Combat aircraft

    Since November 2017, interviews have been held with aircraft manufacturers, in a first
    time with the ministries of defense and then in the context of mixed groups (representatives
    ministries of defense and manufacturers). In July 2018, a first call
    tenders called request for proposal will be sent to manufacturers. These will have to submit
    offers for 30 and 40 fighter planes (including guided gears and a logistic package
    defined by the end of January 2019 and calculate how many aircraft would be needed to
    be able to have four airplanes permanently in the air for four weeks.

    This first step will not fix the final number of aircraft. The call for tenders for 30
    to 40 aircraft must provide a basis for a reliable cost comparison. The second
    approach allows to establish the optimal ratios between the number of planes and the package
    logistics - there is indeed an inverse relationship between the number of aircraft and the cost of
    logistics: more logistics can achieve the same degree of presence
    in the air with a reduced number of aircraft since downtime
    on the ground can be reduced. The other objective of this second approach is to define the
    minimum number of aircraft required for each model.

    Between May and July 2019, combat aircraft must be tested one after the other
    in Swiss. Compared with the 2008 evaluation and based on the experiences of
    the time (which show which data are worth checking), the test program
    is optimized, which makes it faster. The planes must be based in Payerne, but
    take off and also land at Meiringen to allow noise measurements at both
    locations. The tests carried out in Switzerland are a sine qua non requirement; if this requirement does
    may be filled, the aircraft concerned is rejected.

    In November 2019, a second call for tenders will be launched and to which
    by the end of May 2020. From June to the end of 2020, the evaluation report will be drawn up and
    submitted to the Federal Council for the choice of aircraft model, together with the report
    on the ground-air defense system.

    Ground-to-air defense system

    Preparation of the evaluation began in September 2017 with a market analysis
    ground-to-air defense systems, which resulted in an initial (long list) selection of
    systems to consider. For this market analysis, interviews were conducted with the
    ministries of defense in countries where these systems are manufactured or used. the
    In spring 2018, the list was reduced to three short list systems, which are currently
    evaluated.

    The evaluation of the ground-to-air defense is carried out in parallel with the evaluation of the new
    combat aircraft. However, it is not the systems in their entirety that are
    tested in Switzerland, but only the sensors.
    Unsurprisingly, the approach used to define the number of minimal aircraft required (4 aircraft continuously airborne for 4 weeks) is a long time requirement of the Swiss Air Force. It will advantage whichever system designed to
    sustain high sortie rates with minimum support over long period of time.

  11. #41
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    @Skyhawk

    Thanks for the info.
    Sum ergo cogito

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