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Thread: Su-57 News and Discussion -version_we_lost_count!-

  1. #241
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    Are you real Sure Amraam 120D max range is 180km?

    And if R-77-1 recieved an update very recent.. how is that bad exactly?

  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by haavarla View Post
    Are you real Sure Amraam 120D max range is 180km?
    ?
    Classified. Probably comes from the statement of “50% greater range than the C7”.

    And the range of the C7 is classified, so most likely based on vague statements and estimates.. Those types of ranges are for head-on. The intercept is nowhere near that far (true of all stated AAM ranges).

  3. #243
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    For reference, the analogue APQ-120 had a MTBF in the single digits, and the first attempt at reliability testing the APG-66 (all-digital, air-cooled) failed, achieving 10 - 15 hours (60 envisaged). Meanwhile APG-63 MTBF goals were reduced from 150 originally to 60 hours (a level it didn't achieve out of the box either, and pre-APG-70 variants never made it past 80h). Last but not least, the infamous Blue Circle saga bears mentioning
    The APQ-120 is the radar of the F-4 - that's about 2 generations before the Su-27. All you are doing is pointing out how the Mech N001 radar was actually a somewhat unadvanced radar for the 1980s.

  4. #244
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    It's the radar installed in the final F-4E variant, so the immediate predecessor to the APG-63/N001 generation. Due to its analogue architecture it provides some perspective on why the reliability achieved with the N001 with a hybrid analogue/digital approach (as opposed to fully digital in most of its US contemporaries) is actually quite respectable. Does that make it "unadvanced"? Only if the AWG-9, Foxhunter and RDM are "unadvanced" as well - the range & track-while-scan performance were certainly competitive with the APG-63.

    If there is anything to justifiably criticize about the N001, I would argue that it's the weight (~400kg vs. ~250kg for the APG-63).
    Last edited by Trident; 21st July 2018 at 22:59.

  5. #245
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    I am not agree.

    R-77-1 with around 100 kms data range its miles away from Amraam Aim 120 d (180 km)or C6, and worst situatuon against Meteor with a nez around 90 kms per 20-30 kms R-77-1. R-77 only received 1 update from 30 years ago. R73M can not compete too with Aim 9x or iris-T, do not have ir-imaging and only its 60º off-boresight. All western short misiles are ir-imaging and over 90º off-boresigh.

    So no, its outdated weaponry. Of course can be lethal, but its miles away from western missiles in that moment
    R-77-1 are decade old downgraded export figures.

    based on indirect interpretation. R-77-1 has atleast 160km range. and latest R-37 is over 300km.
    https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-n...intended-china
    The Su-27SM(3) also features a new electronic warfare suite and improved targeting systems. The weapons package includes new missiles (Sukhoi declined to specify the type) and the air-to-air and air-to-surface missiles in the Su-27SM(3) arsenal have longer firing ranges
    According to Sukhoi the Su-27SM(3) is more than twice as effective against aerial targets and three times more effective against ground targets than the Su-27S.

  6. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBW View Post
    Those types of ranges are for head-on. The intercept is nowhere near that far (true of all stated AAM ranges).
    In the case of the AIM-120D the constraints on target maneuvers are likely to be even more stringent than typical for such long ranges though. In a non-airbreathing (low ISP!) AAM of that size, 180km is only really credible if the trajectory is "lofted" (semi-ballistic), without mid-course corrections. Given a stealthy launch platform and a target with no (or obsolete) MAWS, having no idea that it is being fired upon, that may even be a reasonable assumption. However, the NEZ is still likely to be significantly smaller than in Meteor in a like-for-like comparison (despite the similar brochure range).

  7. #247
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    If there is anything to justifiably criticize about the N001, I would argue that it's the weight (~400kg vs. ~250kg for the APG-63)
    N001 - 575 kg, AN/APG-63 - 221 kg

  8. #248
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    N001 - 575 kg, AN/APG-63 - 221 kg
    This is good info. Was looking for this figure to break the myth that Su-30MKI's need canard to counteract radar weight. While the N011M Bars weighs like 650 Kg or only about 75 more Kg.

    ------------------

    Quote Originally Posted by Trident
    In the case of the AIM-120D the constraints on target maneuvers are likely to be even more stringent than typical for such long ranges though. In a non-airbreathing (low ISP!) AAM of that size, 180km is only really credible if the trajectory is "lofted" (semi-ballistic), without mid-course corrections.
    Or it's launched from an SR-71. :P

  9. #249
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    N011M - 245 kg


  10. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by haavarla
    Are you real Sure Amraam 120D max range is 180km?

    And if R-77-1 recieved an update very recent.. how is that bad exactly?
    On this life nothing is sure except the dead.

    This data is clasified by companies, but this around 180 kms is data you can find in diferent places on internet. Version D was a big improvement, told Raytheon comparing with previous Amraam. About Meteor all is said, is the best airtoair out there.


    Yes FBW, you are reason. This data is head-on. This change a lot depending on the circumstances of the launch, altitude with respect to the enemy, launch speed, position respect enemy...

    Of course, the ones that will take the most advantage are stealth planes, because they can take for the best launching position without being detected.

    An F-35 with a Meteor (will be implemented soon) will be the most devilish thing that flies.

    Really Russia need new big updates or new weapons on this area, it is not a surprise new weapons for Su-57. Airplane is important but not less important will be the weapons. All need to be on vanguard.
    Last edited by RALL; 22nd July 2018 at 10:29.

  11. #251
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    RALL@ if you do not have any real figures on mussile range, then i suggest don't post at all. And similar if you don't even know Western A2A missile range, then you certaintly wont know any real Russian made A2A missile range figures.
    But regardless you put up wishfully figures to fit your views of comparison.

  12. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by paralay View Post
    N011M - 245 kg

    Isn't that a little on the light side of things..? Is thus only for the Array?
    Does N001 and N001VEP have the same weight?

  13. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by haavarla
    RALL@ if you do not have any real figures on mussile range, then i suggest don't post at all. And similar if you don't even know Western A2A missile range, then you certaintly wont know any real Russian made A2A missile range figures.
    But regardless you put up wishfully figures to fit your views of comparison.


    I talked about information of the missiles that is public domain. So, do not tell me what i need post or not. If you do not like it is not my problem.
    Last edited by RALL; 22nd July 2018 at 22:50.

  14. #254
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    Well said.

  15. #255
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    I talked about information of the missiles that is public domain. So, do not tell me what i need post or not. If you do not like it is not my problem
    R-77-1 range exceed Su-27 radar and that was decade ago. now double it again in 10 years. so most probably around 220km in 2018.
    Phase 2 need upgrade to MIG31 radar for newer missiles.
    http://fantasylab.ru/take-off-en/pdf_to/to18.pdf
    Would you dwell on other of your efforts to expand the capabilities of the existing radars?
    Just a fortnight ago, in late September, there was the first successful launch of an upgraded air-to-air missile by a Su-27SM3 prototype, with the missile hitting its target. To extend the missile’s range, we had upgraded the antenna, transmitter and RF update channel of the Su-27’s organic radar.
    The Su-27SM3 upgraded fighter entered its official tests and, probably, will serve the pattern for upgrading the Su-27 fighters in combat units.

    Phase Two will see the weapons suite beefed up through adopting advanced medium- and long-range missiles and upgrading the Zaslon radar accordingly.

  16. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolarWarden View Post
    Well said.
    What is well said, is that those figures from RALL is not pulled out from official sources.
    But rather pulled out from his re@r.
    I've been around here for some time now, every now and then, these missile claims pops up..
    And guess what, they are just as factual incorrect today as they were last year and the year before that.

    The only jet today that is capable of utilizing its own Speed as a slingshoot, thus improving its missile range to some degree, would be Mig-31.
    But even that is a big stretch..
    You probably have a limited separation launch speed on different jets.
    If the target is not 20.000ft below you on an exact vector towards you.
    And does not change heading at all until impact.
    You must also have a cold winter time climat condition for max ooomph if your missile are air-breathing.

    Blablabla, even then you would never a 180km range on Amraam120

  17. #257
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    AIM-120D would have dual pulse engine but it was canceled so 50% better range then latest C versions was probable for that version.

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