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Thread: Turkey's newly announced 300+ metre STOBAR Aircraft carrier

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    Turkey's newly announced 300+ metre STOBAR Aircraft carrier

    Turkey has announced a program to design, develop and produce a 300+ metre STOBAR Aircraft Carrier by 2029.

    What we know so far from Turkish media:

    ICDAS Shipyard has acquired a new dry dock which measures 370m by 70m for this sole purpose.

    Turkey intends to field a CV variant of the TF-X fighter (or another fighter to be developed with ROSTEC of Russia).

    TEKSAV Teknoloji, a Turkish company which produces Aircraft Arresting systems has been asked to develop the STOBAR system.

    Turkey's success in developing surface-combatant carrier escorts (AAW Frigates, MILDEN Submarine etc) has paved the way for the CV program



    http://www.denizhaber.com.tr/icdas-t...aber-81684.htm
    http://www.star.com.tr/ekonomi/ilk-u...haber-1345284/
    https://www.virahaber.com/ilk-ucak-g...yor-48434h.htm
    Last edited by Bayar; 22nd May 2018 at 11:54.

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    Meanwhile Turkey's 2 LHD's/Light Carriers (TCG Anadolu and TCG Trakya) will be getting 16 F-35B's each...

    TCG Trakya, On The Way
    http://en.c4defence.com/Agenda/tcg-t...the-way/6374/1

    As Turkey counts down for delivery of the first F-35 Lightning II aircraft, another development came into light of the Turkish Navy front. According to the information obtained by C4Defence, the service plans to supply a total of 32 short-takeoff and vertical landing (STOVL) aircraft. Today, there are two aircraft models with this feature and one is to retire. For this reason, the service is considering Lockheed Martin's F-35B aircraft program.

    According to the information obtained, the service wrote a letter to the Chief of General Staff and requested initiation of the construction of TCG Trakya, the twin of Landing Helicopter Dock (LHD) TCG ANADOLU. The Navy stated that the timing of construction of the second ship would have many advantages both in terms of construction time and program cost.

    The second phase of the program will include the supply of vertical landing aircraft to be deployed on TCG Trakya. Accordingly, the total number of F-35B aircraft demanded by the service will also be revised.

    Although it is not officially requested from the US yet, the Navy plans to buy 16 aircraft per LHD. If all goes as planned, Turkey will have purchased 100 F-35As and 32 F-35Bs.

    The Spanish Navantia Shipyard provides technical support to Sedef Shipyard. Sedef Shipyard utilizes Navantia's Juan Carlos 1 LHD ship experience. The Spanish Juan Carlos 1 ship is equipped with McDonnell Douglas design (now Boeing) AV-8B Harrier II platforms as well as vertical landing helicopters. Spain plans to retire these aircraft and supply the F-35B instead.

    This news is exclusive to C4Defence and cannot be used/published without referencing to C4Defence.

    Short Url: http://c4news.me/4G7y7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deino View Post
    Should that Bill become legislation then the deal with Rostec of Russia will kick in...we could then see a YAK-141 derivative aircraft fielded by both Russian and Turkish LHD’s.

    Turkey would also allocate the $20 billion it had allocated for the F-35’s towards speeding up the TF-X program with BAE systems.

    The US would then loose Incirlik AF base and the Kurecik Radar station together with Turkish Air Space. We could also see Russian and Chinese bases in Turkey and Northern Cyprus....There is a very remote possibility of the Trump Administration making this mistake.
    Last edited by Bayar; 22nd May 2018 at 16:57.

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    Really the Yack?! In 2030's!

    One minute... Let me get the Nieuport Blueprints... You never know.

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    Should that Bill become legislation then the deal with Rostec of Russia will kick in...we could then see a YAK-141 derivative aircraft fielded by both Russian and Turkish LHD’s.
    Facepalm

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    It would be fun to see this happen. But unfortunately the Turkish president is making it difficult for the economy.

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    Regardless of any other consideration fielding a 300+ mtrs CV in the mediterranean seems me a total overkill, let's imagine in the Black sea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcellogo View Post
    Regardless of any other consideration fielding a 300+ mtrs CV in the mediterranean seems me a total overkill, let's imagine in the Black sea.
    It wont be fielded in the Black Sea or Mediterranean Sea.

    It will be primarily in the Indian Ocean with logistical support from the Turkish bases in Somalia and Sudan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TomcatViP View Post
    ... (Sensored)

    Really the Yack?! In 2030's!

    One minute... Let me get the Nieuport Blueprints... You never know.
    Keyword- derivative of the YAK-141.

    You would recall the F-35B also uses technology that Lockheed Martin had obtained from Yakolev

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    You would recall the F-35B also uses technology that Lockheed Martin had obtained from Yakolev
    BS

    A great deal of misinformation has appeared on the Internet regarding the relationship of the Soviet Yak-41 (later Yak-141), NATO reporting name Freestyle, to the X-35 and the rest of the JSF program. The Pratt & Whitney 3BSD nozzle design predates the Russian work. In fact the 3BSD was tested with a real engine almost twenty years before the first flight of the Yak.
    http://www.codeonemagazine.com/article.html?item_id=137
    "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

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    ^Nonsense Spudman. The US reframed the argument to make it about the nozzle. Its not about the nozzle. Its about the jet. The size, the mission scope and the general capability. That was manifested in the Yak first.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bayar View Post
    Keyword- derivative of the YAK-141.
    Yeah... that's not achievable within the next two decades. Its not as simple as dusting out the old blueprints and ordering up a new set of molds.

    You would recall the F-35B also uses technology that Lockheed Martin had obtained from Yakolev
    A popular myth. The data from Yakolev was employed in the JSF risk reduction studies and to pad LM's proposal to the DoD. None of the technology made it onto the actual aircraft - the F-35B employs a shaft driven lift fan (cold air) in contrast to the Yak-141's twin turbojets. Its a very different principle. As for the 3 bearing swivel nozzle - that had its origins in the Convair 200 program (which, though cancelled, predates the Yak-141).

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    You mean the two lift engines.. oh wait, the F-35 uses a lift fan.. maybe the stealth, nope.... mid-mounted the main engine.... nope.

    The size, the mission scope and the general capability
    You mean like a bigger version of the Harrier which has been on the drawing board FOREVER.. or how about the Convair Model 200 which came LONG before the Yak was even drempt of and is where teh 3BN came from.

    Try your nonsense elsewhere.
    "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

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    The general 'philosophy' of VSTOL had been demonstrated way back in the 60s.


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    With a little R&D, an ASELSAN AESA radar and a TAEC Aircraft Engine Industry Corporation Engine I am pretty sure Turkey can field a YAK-141 based VTOL aircraft suitable for use on its LHD’s. It does not need to be a 5th Gen aircraft. 4.5 Gen is sufficient for Turkey.

    With Turkey’s stand-off missiles such as the SOM-B1 the 4.5 gen VTOL aircraft can still be very useful.
    Last edited by Bayar; 23rd May 2018 at 05:15.

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    The general 'philosophy' of VSTOL had been demonstrated way back in the 60s.
    ...and in 1963 in Germany (VJ 101), and in UK (Hawker P.1127) and in... who knows...

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    I am pretty sure Turkey can field a YAK-141 based VTOL
    ok so who will pay for its development? Russia probably won't, they're interested in the Su-57K, unless Turkey pays most of reviving a Yak-141.
    Also why would you want to go from a 5th gen aircraft to a 4th gen?

    And do you really want to leave the US-NATO alliance for Russia? Sure, it means Incirlik might be gone.. but it also means it makes it much easier for NATO to side with Greece during a dispute. Also supporting the Kurds.

    Russia?.. they support Syria, your enemy.

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    The Harrier wasn't supersonic.

    In the spirit of these copy accusations , it works. I can go on all day about how the tu 160 isn't a copy of the B1A but you wont care.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vans View Post
    ok so who will pay for its development? Russia probably won't, they're interested in the Su-57K, unless Turkey pays most of reviving a Yak-141.
    Also why would you want to go from a 5th gen aircraft to a 4th gen?

    And do you really want to leave the US-NATO alliance for Russia? Sure, it means Incirlik might be gone.. but it also means it makes it much easier for NATO to side with Greece during a dispute. Also supporting the Kurds.

    Russia?.. they support Syria, your enemy.

    Its all up to the snobby US Congressman. If they want to seek to dictate to Turkey what it can and cant buy or have double standards towards it- Turkey can show them that there are alternative options in this world.

    Turkey is a Level 3 Partner in the JSF consortium. Turkey is not an off-the-shelf purchaser of the F-35. Turkey has also paid for its aircraft. If the US suddenly thinks it can use the program to blackmail Turkey into abandoning the S-400 acquisition it will soon realise that the Turks are not Arabs and that they would reply with very radical moves.

    As for who will pay for the development- obviously Turkey. They already have a spare $20 billion from the F-35 program and $60 billion worth of arms programs in the pipeline. The development costs will also not be a great deal as the VTOL aircraft will use sub-systems developed for the TF-X program.

    Russia also already has plans for a new VTOL aircraft...
    http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2017/july-2017-navy-naval-forces-defense-industry-technology-maritime-security-global-news/5406-russia-s-defense-ministry-discussing-development-of-vtol-plane-for-aircraft-carrier.html
    Last edited by Bayar; 23rd May 2018 at 06:17.

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    Well..with Erdogan continue making market losing confidence on future Turkey good economic management..will see how all of this can be financed.

    One thing on hearing producing new SVTOL fighter from China that can pay the bill. Now this going to be paid by USD 20 bio that not existed right now..and all depends to Turkish future economic trend that continue being put in doubt by Erdogan anti-market management..

    Well..get rid Erdogan first from Turkey management..bring back market confidence on Turkey..then potential this can happen..

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    Quote Originally Posted by ananda View Post
    Well..with Erdogan continue making market losing confidence on future Turkey good economic management..will see how all of this can be financed.

    One thing on hearing producing new SVTOL fighter from China that can pay the bill. Now this going to be paid by USD 20 bio that not existed right now..and all depends to Turkish future economic trend that continue being put in doubt by Erdogan anti-market management..

    Well..get rid Erdogan first from Turkey management..bring back market confidence on Turkey..then potential this can happen..
    Turkey has been putting aside $5 billion for the past 10 yearly budgets to fund the F-35 acquisition. There is over $50 billion in this fund now. The same has been allocated for the U-214 submarine program etc. That is Turkey spreads out the costs of large programs over a period of 10 years. $5 billion per year is peanuts for Turkey. They spent $20 billion alone on Syrian refugees! Turkey is not some Arabian desert country. Turkey is an industrialised G20 member State.

    All this whoo ha about the Turkish economy will discipate after the Turkish elections...we see a decline in the Lira at every Turkish election and then it stabalizes once the political uncertainty is resolved. In any event $20 - $30 billion projects are not projects that a G20 member State with a GDP of $1.8 Trillion (PPP) cannot finance.

    All these major programs are also controlled by the Turkish Presidency (with a panel of senior military advisors). This means that parliamentary politics have very minimal role in their timelines.

    Turkish arms exports such as the 30 T-129 Attack helicopter sale to Pakistan or the MILGEM corvette sales also fund these programs.
    Last edited by Bayar; 23rd May 2018 at 08:05.

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    With a little R&D, an ASELSAN AESA radar and a TAEC Aircraft Engine Industry Corporation Engine I am pretty sure Turkey can field a YAK-141 based VTOL aircraft suitable for use on its LHD’s. It does not need to be a 5th Gen aircraft. 4.5 Gen is sufficient for Turkey.
    "Little R&D"?! To develop a STVOL strike fighter?!!!
    "TAEC Aircraft Engine Industry Corporation Engine"?!! Rolls Royce cooperating with Rostec and Yak?!!
    You dont have a clue.
    Last edited by Sintra; 23rd May 2018 at 23:41.

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    "Little R&D"?! To develop a STVOL strike fighter?!!!

    The Yakovlev Yak-141 made its maiden flight in 1989. That is, it was a flying platform. Turkey would not be developing a VTOL aircraft from scratch but merely updating an existing aircraft design to modern times. Just like the TAI T-129 Attack Helicopter program. Turkey took the Agusta A129 Mangusta and transformed it into a modern platform. Turkish companies already have extremely mature programs for AESA radars, Mission Computers, Modern Avionics etc. TAI Hurkus, TAI HurJet, TAI TF-X programs are all complimentary to this effort.

    "TAEC Aircraft Engine Industry Corporation Engine"?!! Rolls Royce cooperating with Rostec and Yak?!!

    The "TAEC Aircraft Engine Industry Corporation" is a Turkish Corporation incorporated under the laws of the Republic of Turkey. Its sole purpose is to develop and produces turbo-fan engines for Turkish Aircraft programs such as the TF-X, TAI HurJet. It will also produce engines for Turkish Airlines aircraft purchased from Boeing and Airbus.

    KALE Group of Turkey owns 51% of this corporation whilst Rolls-Royce of the United Kingdom has a 49% share. The company is modeled around the Joint Venture between IHI Corporation of Japan and GE of the USA.

    Technology developed by TAEC will be subject to Turkish Export controls not UK Export Controls. Rolls-Royce will provide 400 of its Engineers to TAEC for the co-development effort.

    When Turkey issued the tender for co-development of Turbo-fan engines for its combat aircraft programs only 3 countries satisfied the requirements of full ToT. They were EuroJet, Rolls-Royce and Rostec of Russia. Rolls-Royce was selected by the Turkish Government because they had obtained Export approval from the British Government and guaranteed full ToT.

    Turkey is already look to use TAEC Turbo-fan engines on the new Heavy lift aircraft dubbed An-188 by Antanov of Ukraine.

    If you want to know how extensive the Partnership with British companies are just look at the below Export Approval....







    https://assets.publishing.service.go...7-ogel-tfx.pdf
    Last edited by Bayar; 24th May 2018 at 03:59.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bayar View Post
    The Yakovlev Yak-141 made its maiden flight in 1989. That is, it was a flying platform. Turkey would not be developing a VTOL aircraft from scratch but merely updating an existing aircraft design to modern times.
    Without wanting to be condescending, I don't think you have any idea how complex this little 'update' would actually be, given that the flying platform never actually went into production, putting the components of the aircraft beyond reach 30 years later. Practically everything on the aircraft will need to independently acquired or developed.

    New vectoring turbofan engine, new lift jets, different transmission, different air frame materials, different avionics. All resulting in different weight distribution, different handling, different FBW... basically what you have is new aircraft that just happens to be unnecessarily confined by the 1980s design choices of a 1980s Soviet OKB.

    The A 129 customization to develop the TA 129 has parallels in the the Israeli F-16I development. What you're describing is more akin to the development of the Japanese F-2, only much much more complex since its a VSTOL aircraft. The idea that it could be delivered in a time-frame corresponding to the planned Turkish LHA/carrier is a nonstarter.

    It would be a lot simpler & cheaper to just order the vessel in a CATOBAR configuration and develop the T-FX in a naval variant, while buying a fighter off-the-shelf in the interim. Or maybe collaborating with Russia on a naval Su-57.
    Last edited by Vnomad; 24th May 2018 at 04:39.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vnomad View Post
    Without wanting to be condescending, I don't think you have any idea how complex this little 'update' would actually be, given that the flying platform never actually went into production, putting the components of the aircraft beyond reach 30 years later. Practically everything on the aircraft will need to independently acquired or developed.

    New vectoring turbofan engine, new lift jets, different transmission, different air frame materials, different avionics. All resulting in different weight distribution, different handling, different FBW... basically what you have is new aircraft that just happens to be unnecessarily confined by the 1980s design choices of a 1980s Soviet OKB.

    The A 129 customization to develop the TA 129 has parallels in the the Israeli F-16I development. What you're describing is more akin to the development of the Japanese F-2, only much much more complex since its a VSTOL aircraft. The idea that it could be delivered in a time-frame corresponding to the planned Turkish LHA/carrier is a nonstarter.

    It would be a lot simpler & cheaper to just order the vessel in a CATOBAR configuration and develop the T-FX in a naval variant, while buying a fighter off-the-shelf in the interim. Or maybe collaborating with Russia on a naval Su-57.
    Ofcourse the Yak-141 derivative would not be ready when TCG Anadolu is delivered in 2019.

    It would take at the least 5 years to enter service. It would be ready however for the commissioning of TCG Trakya. But should the US impose an arms embargo on the F-35B this route is inevitable for Turkey.

    As for redesigning the LHD/Light Carriers for STOL aircraft- this is not possible as Turkey wants these vessels to focus on amphibious role.

    The 300m vessel being designed however will be an aircraft carrier proper...

    P.S. Given the extent of relations with the UK of late I wouldnt discount a program to develop a new Harrier derivative with the UK either...
    Last edited by Bayar; 24th May 2018 at 04:50.

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    The Yak is an interesting idea. The jet didn't go into production only because there wasn't enough committed buyers. It was a finished project. All of the blueprints and re for the jet are probably available.

    collaborating with Russia on a naval Su-57
    That's a good idea. It looks like, from what bayer posted, that Turkey's whole MIC is like the Russia model so I think it would work good.

    Turkey should have scooped those used Harriers if this carrier was in the works

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    Turkey has been putting aside $5 billion for the past 10 yearly budgets to fund the F-35 acquisition. There is over $50 billion in this fund now. The same has been allocated for the U-214 submarine program etc. That is Turkey spreads out the costs of large programs over a period of 10 years. $5 billion per year is peanuts for Turkey. They spent $20 billion alone on Syrian refugees! Turkey is not some Arabian desert country. Turkey is an industrialised G20 member State.

    All this whoo ha about the Turkish economy will discipate after the Turkish elections...we see a decline in the Lira at every Turkish election and then it stabalizes once the political uncertainty is resolved. In any event $20 - $30 billion projects are not projects that a G20 member State with a GDP of $1.8 Trillion (PPP) cannot finance.
    Is there any public information about these funds? Would be interesting to see. 5-10 billion USD per year is anything but peanuts.

    PPP adjustments aren't very relevant when you consider financial flow between countries. The US wants its F-35s paid for in dollars, although having cheap local labor can of course help with parts of the sustainment costs of the program.

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    “The director of the Russian state-owned defense company Rostec for International Co-operation, Viktor Kladov, in his statements from Antalya at the Eurasia Airshow told Ria Novosti that Russia can supply engines for the fighter that Turkey plans to build and announced that they some days of Turkish experts will visit Russia, as Turkey is “particularly interested in co-production of aircraft and helicopters”. According to Defense News invoking Turkish officials responsible for military supplies.”

    https://en.reseauinternational.net/h...h-fighter-jet/

    Turkish and Russian officials are holding high level meetings to discuss joint development of combat aircraft and helicopters.

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