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Thread: In cockpit camera of P51 Miss Velmas emergency landing at LAST years Legends

  1. #1
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    In cockpit camera of P51 Miss Velmas emergency landing at LAST years Legends

    I was sent this link of the inflight video and discussion of the incident from Miss Velma emergency landing last year.A great insight into the decisions and problems with a misfiring engine.

    https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/...irport-landing

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBpq...ature=youtu.be

  2. #2
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    Incredible, thanks for sharing. Exceptional airmanship.
    Witnessed it first hand at the AirSpace end on the day with my heart in my mouth.
    Plane Crazy

  3. #3
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    Fascinating insight

  4. #4
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    Great interview and footage.

  5. #5
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    Really excellent piece of video.

    ..but interesting comment from a US You-Tuber - "Trashed one of our planes. What were they doing in England anyway"? Is this a common thought in the US about warbirds in Britain? Interested to hear from Americans.
    www.whirlwindfighterproject.org
    It's all good. Probably.

  6. #6
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    I should imagine that Youtuber's comment is just an ill informed opinion from an arm chair enthusiast who thinks they know everything but know very little.

    The replies to that comment sum it up...

  7. #7
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    It was an excellent save considering he had so few hours on type too. The other comment I found interesting was about dumping the canopy and proximity to the motorway, and not making your emergency situation into someone elses emergency too.
    Stephen Carr

    Only dead fish swim with the stream.

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  8. #8
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    Really interesting to see, especially as one who was there on the Sunday afternoon. What a great outcome.

    I was berated on here by one individual, at the time, for being overly sensational in my reaction, but with Shoreham such a recent memory, if that had ended with a very bad outcome, I believe that non-coastal UK airshows would have been stopped dead, for good.

  9. #9
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    To massage a famous Dambusters quote :-)
    "Trashed one of our planes. What were they doing in England anyway"?
    replies,
    "If you tell him they were based here during the war, would that help?"

  10. #10
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    Thanks trumper for sharing the link, and thanks to the pilot and anyone else who was involved in making the footage and analysis public. I'm not a pilot, but if I were, I'm sure I would find that incredibly useful. As an enthusiast it was still amazing to hear that kind of insight.

  11. #11
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    Clearly a pilot familiar with the chimp behaviour model. The Chimp Paradox by Steve Peters: recommended reading for everyone.

  12. #12
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    Strange, a notable lack of any 'stunt flying'...

    ..."three down and safe", well done, that man!
    WA$.

  13. #13
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    WOW ! airmanship at its best, decisions decisions decision, bang bang bang one after another he nailed each of them.

    my heart stopped even knowing the outcome just watching that, now I can breath.

    Will he be at Legends?
    SMOKE SMOKE GO!
    TA out

  14. #14
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    Great video and a lot of useful stuff for others to learn from

  15. #15
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    He clearly didn't want to cross the motorway enroute to Duxford.
    An outcome of the Shoram crash?

    He clearly did the right thing...no sense in pushing one's luck.
    There are two sides to every story. The truth is usually somewhere between the two.

  16. #16
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    Yes, if he'd come down on the M11 motorway, just think of the consequences...

    ...the organisers of the M11 would surely be held to account for any deaths or injuries, use of the M11 would be banned indefinitely, there'd have been questions asked in the house-of-commons as to why a new motorway was built near a busy airfield, maybe even a public enquiry would be held and those responsible for building the M11 in such a dangerous location could even be prosecuted for corporate manslaughter!
    WA$.

  17. #17
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    Do we know why the engine quit? It seems like fuel starvation given the intermittent running. Can anyone confirm?

  18. #18
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    Do we know why the engine quit? It seems like fuel starvation given the intermittent running. Can anyone confirm?
    It seems similar to the engine malfunction on "Miss Helen" at Flying Legends in 2008 on landing approach as well (which I recall was also following the Balbo formation). I recall reports, back to original military operation, where the Bendix-Stromberg carburetor on the Mustang can get out of whack with too much movements/"jockeying" of the throttle.

  19. #19
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    I think Miss Helen's prob was mags wasn't it? Does seem very similar but in this case they seem to suspect carbs. Good outcome considering, well done and hope we will enjoy watching the two of them in Duxford's skies in July...

  20. #20
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    In my experience certain fuel issues show exactly the same symptoms as ignition (in this case mag) issues; apparently Merlins suffer from over greasing on the mags.

    It looks a one point as if he has enough height to make it back ,but at the end the plane is sinking fast, and probably the best decision, to belly in the field; I wonder what effect a similar landing at DX itself would have on the events precedings and whether advice is to put them down off (air) field?
    Last edited by stuart gowans; 20th May 2018 at 12:13.
    Why be your own worse critic, that's what the forum is for.

  21. #21
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    any report on the P51 involved in the prop versus tailplane mid air? Any lesson to be learned other than formation flying being challenging?

  22. #22
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    I'm interested to hear if this crash was due to a 'mag' problem; surely the Merlin in the P-51, and the engines of every other aircraft of the era, has two complete ignition systems: two spark plugs in each cylinder, two magnetos and two completely independent ignition wiring harnesses.

    This complete system redundancy, although it has performance benefits too, is designed to ensure that even if one magneto fails completely, every cylinder still has a good spark from one spark-plug. In fact part of the pre-flight checks is to switch-off each magneto in turn and note the drop in engine RPM; the 'mag-drop' test.

    So was there a problem with both magnetos?

    Surely, at the reduced power levels required to maintain altitude at reduced speed, a single correctly functioning magneto and a single spark-plug firing in each cylinder are enough to ensure that the engine is capable of producing, consistently, that level of power output?

    Similarly, and my knowledge is much more limited on this score, aren't the carburettors on most (all?) Merlin engines 'twin-choke' carburettors; effectively two identical carburettors side-by-side (with their throttle-valves on a common shaft)? Although the 'carburettors' share a common float-chamber, assuming fuel reaches this, there is system redundancy built into the carburettor too (although I appreciate that there are 'performance' reasons too for having two smaller carburettors than one large one - especially at lower power (or idle) settings)?

    The problem with a 'defective' choke in a twin-choke carburettor is that you can't just turn the defective choke off; it still admits an equal volume of air whether there is fuel mixed with that air or not.
    Last edited by Creaking Door; 20th May 2018 at 14:48.
    WA$.

  23. #23
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    I had an intermittent Mag drop on once that showed its self only in the air, it caused a lack of power not loosing the engine its started on a flight from Biggin up to Norfolk just north of Norwich, after landing we did mag drop tests and nothing all good so it was put down to the air temp about 88' that day, we did a local flight no problem but after leaving from the airfield for return to Biggin after 15 to 20 minutes it started to play up again diverted into DX turned out some wiring in the mag was shorting somehow both mags had to be rebuilt faultless after that.
    I have no idea what the problem with Miss Velma was and I would not speculate, comment or assume all I know is a text book cool calm decision making at its best by the pilot.
    SMOKE SMOKE GO!
    TA out

  24. #24
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    Absolutely no criticism, implied or intended, towards any of the pilots mentioned in this thread...

    ...merely an observation on the redundancy inherent in the ignition system design.
    WA$.

  25. #25
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    Yes agreed CD not suggesting this to be the cause; I do think that things go south real quick as a display pilot, as you are already close to the ground for display purposes; I would think a fairly natural reaction to loss of power, would be to push the throttle forward quickly, which often has a negative reaction in terms of stabilising power delivery.

    Not a lot of thinking time, with an engine failure, and as said in the video clip a lot of information to process.
    Why be your own worse critic, that's what the forum is for.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trolly Aux
    Will he be at Legends?
    According to the interview/discussion video, yes! And in the same aircraft. Good stuff!
    "those who know keep quiet, and those who don't are frowned upon for asking." - snafu

  27. #27
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    Interesting comments, including jockeying of the throttle. Something The Horsemen must regularly employ.

  28. #28
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    The cynical side of me wonders why the pilot didn’t change fuel tanks during this malady? I didn’t see him reach for the tank selector, which isn’t to say he didn’t, but regardless of that, he did very well in getting it and himself down in dreadful circumstances. I’m sure his wise words will be noted by many pilots.

  29. #29
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    "The cynical side of me wonders why the pilot didn’t change fuel tanks during this malady? I didn’t see him reach for the tank selector, which isn’t to say he didn’t, but regardless of that, he did very well in getting it and himself down in dreadful circumstances. I’m sure his wise words will be noted by many pilots. "
    The safety guy says near the end of the video "you changed tanks so it wasn't a fuel problem" or words to that effect.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trolly Aux
    Will he be at Legends?

    K5054NZ
    According to the interview/discussion video, yes! And in the same aircraft. Good stuff!

    Thank you, fantastic I think he should get a standing ovation when he steps out for his display
    SMOKE SMOKE GO!
    TA out

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