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Thread: Syria related aviation events, news and discussion

  1. #61
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    how they are failing. unless you have the data.
    Have you been living under a rock.
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    Last edited by Levsha; 11th May 2018 at 17:07.

  2. #62
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    It must have broken down - otherwise shouldn't air defence radars be running 24/7?
    Yes, clearly, no chance they simply were outside their vehicle taking a break / not aware of an Israeli raid since Syria has no half-modern early detection net.

    Must have broken down.

    One can safely say that the IAF owns the skies over Syria.
    Yes, it does have a good record of overcoming a decades old, half non functional AD net and the two dozen fighters Syria can get airborn. Doesn't make their 50% AD claims any more overstated.

    Russia being the great big pillar of strength to rally the ME against their economic target, the Saudis
    Not only do you seem to miss the fact that Netenyahu was next to Putin during the May 9th parade (as strikes were happening basically), but apparently have also missed OPEC and Russia successfully cooperating to cut oil production as of late.
    Last edited by TR1; 11th May 2018 at 17:12.
    http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/9098/rsz11rsz3807.jpg

  3. #63
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    Yes, clearly, no chance they simply were outside their vehicle taking a break / not aware of an Israeli raid since Syria has no half-modern early detection net.

    Must have broken down.
    No such thing as relief crews?

    Yes, it does have a good record of overcoming a decades old, half non functional AD net and the two dozen fighters Syria can get airborn. Doesn't make their 50% AD claims any more overstated.
    Well the Syrians certainly have had enough technology and systems delivered to its AD system over the past decades. Why doesn't the Syrian AD detection system work - maybe because the Israeli air force knocked it out a long time ago?

  4. #64
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    Have you been living under a rock.
    is there numbers of airdefence missiles fired to number of incoming missiles?. low altitude cruise missiles can only be intercepted at short distance and that mean airdefence battery has to right on sight.

  5. #65
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    Regardless of any dependencies Russia has on Israel, you’re failing to grasp the impact the events are having on the regional and global impression of Russia Putin has fought for years to establish.
    you don't create impressions. you create practical and verifiable benefit. look at Iraqi airforce Su-25 sorties compared to F-16 sorties. or Mi-28/Mi-35/Mi-171 sorties. that will be in hundreds of thousands. Russian UAVs/UCAVs are now entering service. I mean without Russia situation with Syria/Iraq would be a lot different. Russia manage to tame Turkey ambitions. no one can compete with Russia military and economic strength. and it can literally destroy Middleast and nothing will happen to it but it giving plenty of time to other countries to diversify there imports.
    https://af.reuters.com/article/energ.../idAFL8N1RW2V2
    CORRECTED-UPDATE 1-Russia's Lukoil starts up Uzbekistan gas plant for Chinese exports

  6. #66
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    Alleged to be the radar for the S-200 system (Unverified).
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    Old radar types never die; they just phased array

  7. #67
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    That looks like a Almaz K-1V/M / 5N62 Square Pair FMCW Engagement Radar



    http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Engag...e-Control.html
    "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by OooShiny View Post
    Any way you look at it, Russia doesn’t have the nerve (or ability perhaps?) to protect its allies so doesn’t try. That is clear now.
    In marked contrast to US protection for its YPG allies against Turkey, right? And I don't know if 'nerve' is the right term... considering the potential for escalation, 'responsibility' might be more accurate. What d'you want them to do - hit back with everything they've got and trigger WWIII? Boy, you must be in urgent need of a sun tan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Levsha View Post
    No such thing as relief crews?
    I don't think it'd be a good idea to casually stand that close to an active gun/missile AD system which has a 360° traverse (i.e. there isn't really a place safe from rocket back blast and spent casings ejected from the guns - watch a video of Pantsir in action for reference!). That and the lack of scanning by the search radar strongly suggests the system - for whatever reason - was not in fact online at the time.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by OooShiny View Post
    Surprised you didn’t come right out with a “you’re a poopie head”.

    Regardless of any dependencies Russia has on Israel, you’re failing to grasp the impact the events are having on the regional and global impression of Russia Putin has fought for years to establish.

    The events of the past month are not painting a picture of Russia being the great big pillar of strength to rally the ME against their economic target, the Saudis or their strategic enemy, the US.

    They’ve completely ignored the continued, direct attacks on assets of two countries considered globally to be amongst their closest (though the list is short) allies. In fact they haven’t just ignored the attacks they’ve been complicit as evidenced by the SA-22 crew being caught completely off guard.

    The bleating about evil Israel on their news sites while taking no action only indicates that they’re offended by what’s happening but are powerless in this situation.

    US canning the nuclear agreement shows the US backs out of deals with enemies, but Russia, as demonstrated, is a fair weather friend.
    ------------------- As a matter of fact, the picture Russia is getting could hardly be better.. they don't seem to show tendencies for ------- use of the force (which they have plenty and which is exactly what I'd expect from someone like yourself) rather than stay remarkably patient and focused on long term targets.. not engaging against Israelis and not compromising long-term relations for the sake of few unimportant Iranian assets is a behavior which exactly fits the concept..

    ---------------------------
    Last edited by Mpacha; 12th May 2018 at 09:15. Reason: Insulting another member.

  10. #70
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    A glimpse of what’s like to witness a network of AD systems working to repel a continues hostile missiles/drone attack, This video shows small portion of what was happening then.

    P.S the nearby system which was launching continuously was a Pantsir

    https://twitter.com/WaelAlRussi/stat...81991392178176
    "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

  11. #71
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    To Trident
    I don't think it'd be a good idea to casually stand that close to an active gun/missile AD system which has a 360° traverse (i.e. there isn't really a place safe from rocket back blast and spent casings ejected from the guns - watch a video of Pantsir in action for reference!). That and the lack of scanning by the search radar strongly suggests the system - for whatever reason - was not in fact online at the time.
    I don't doubt the Pantsir wasn't operating at the time, I am just curious as to why? I mean, at the very time that the AD system is needed (during an Israeli air raid) the crew should happen be having a cigarette break or something - that seems like a pretty lame excuse, or at least a serious lapse of operational procedure and discipline. Shouldn't any AD system be operating 24 hours a day. In which case shouldn't there normally be a second and even a third relief crew? Unless of course the Pantsir, had indeed, broken down?
    Last edited by Levsha; 12th May 2018 at 10:40.

  12. #72
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    Don't forget guys that with so many Russian national having emigrated in Israel, the situation for Russia is far different than the one it faced during the 60s/70s. People tend to forget that point when they try to analyse the Russian strategy in the region.

    I think it would be much better then if we stick to the facts.

  13. #73
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    thing is that russia is turning strongly orthodox and the antisemitism there is quite present.. so, considering the "russian national" emigrating to israel, I doubt they care much about...
    Last edited by TooCool_12f; 12th May 2018 at 12:45.

  14. #74
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    I think it would be much better then if we stick to the facts.

  15. #75
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    Pantsir was not operating and crew was outside simply because it fired all ammunition on targets and is awaiting to reload new ammunition. But still it was a big mistake from the crew, not to drive Pantsir under cover for time of waiting to reload new missiles. This is a problem, when you have small number of modern SAMs against massive attacks, because when they all run out of missiles, they could not protect each other until the first one is reloaded. Lessons learned in hard way.

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  17. #77
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    So the pantsyr was offline, crew exits as their SOP.. it got picked by missiles. One crew fallen. Other than that the crew survived.
    ---

    The thing that i worries most is the apparent lack of sorties from SyAF.. where are those MiG-29's. One element of IADS is the interceptor/fighter aircraft. Fighter would have better chance than SAM's to pick low flying cruise missiles or enforcing sovereignty.

  18. #78
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    So what some of our fine posters are trying to sell the rest of us is essentially this:

    After firing all missiles and shells at incoming Israeli strike, they decided to stand on the side of the road (smoke break?) on the way to rearming. All while strike was ongoing.

    Is that about the gist of it? I mean was it out of fuel too? Because it makes a conspicuous target in the middle of the road. Right....

    It got hit. End of story. It happens in war. There is no shame in it. Syrian AD has been battered for years, it’s probably hard for them to maintain early warning and command and control of an AD system in the middle of a Civil war. The lies and excuses that get shuttled about on social media are just embarrassing,
    Last edited by FBW; 12th May 2018 at 13:37.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBW
    So what some of our fine posters are trying to sell the rest of us is essentially this:

    After firing all missiles and shells at incoming Israeli strike, they decided to stand on the side of the road (smoke break?) on the way to rearming. All while strike was ongoing.

    Is that about the gist of it? I mean was it out of fuel too? Because it makes a conspicuous target in the middle of the road. Right....
    So what is your claim? That the Pantsir was crewed and operational at the time of the impact and the active radar just failed to pick up the incoming projectile?

    We can actually see from the video published by the Israelis that there was a group of people standing on the side of the road and one of them runs into the Pantsir just before the hit. No other vehicles visible. It was reported by the Syrian side before any claims by Israeli, that a Pantsir was hit and one personnel killed. Also from the Israeli video it appears that the search radar was not rotating. From the after picture we can see blackened missile tubes indeed suggesting that it had done some shooting.

    Considering the level of (in)competence the Syrian forces have shown through many decades and different conflicts already it is no way unrealistic to think that they first did some shooting and then after moving away from the shooting positon or even before moving took a smoking break and got punished for it.

    To summerize relevant points from the video and picture:
    1. The Pantsir is not moving, just standing in the middle of the road.
    2. The radar is not rotating.
    3. Hydraulic jacks are not deployed.
    4. Apparent crew is just standing around close to the machine, with one person doing a dash inside just before the hit.
    5. Missile tubes show signs of usage.

  20. #80
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    Anyway where's that video of Israels thaad system going off because of machine gun fire and then started shooting its own projectiles ?

  21. #81
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    So what is your claim? That the Pantsir was crewed and operational at the time of the impact and the active radar just failed to pick up the incoming projectile?
    That doesn't seem to be his claim, no. He is saying that ultimately it doesn't matter what anyone thinks was the operational condition of the Pantsir before it was hit by a missile - in the end it's just became a casualty of the Israeli air strike - just like a lot of other Syrian military assets on that night.

  22. #82
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    Very simple Bellum- they crew was unaware there was a strike inbound. Most likely Israel informed Russia that they were going to hit Hezbollah and Iranian targets in Syria and got assurances that Russian military would not tip off Syria.

    Pre-strike intelligence identified the Syrian air defense systems that were a threat to strike packages and took them out. Edit- I also don’t think the “incompetence” claim covers it. These guys have been fighting for years. I wouldnt think it’s procedure in any military to cluster together on side of road when airstrikes are going on. Self preservation alone would have had them laying down, or spread out while waiting for resupply during an airstrike. They didn’t know it was coming. The video makes that pretty clear.

    What I don’t get is why so many buy the BS being peddled about. It makes sense for Syrian sources to overstate the effectiveness of their AD systems. They need the morale boost. What I don’t get is why Russian sources, even government ones corroborate these falsehoods about 70% of missiles shot down, and whatnot. What we have seen is multiple nations operate over Syria and strike targets with little resistance (other than one F-16) what does that tell you about the current state of Syrian AD and C3?
    Last edited by FBW; 12th May 2018 at 16:39.

  23. #83
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    thing is that russia is turning strongly orthodox and the antisemitism there is quite present.. so, considering the "russian national" emigrating to israel, I doubt they care much about...
    The number of dual citizen Russians-Israeli businessmen and Jewish oligarchs close to Putin is more relevant than any country wide "antisemitism" you are trying to find.

    Grossly OT but Mods tolerate it from some repeated trolls anyways (not you just to be clear).
    http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/9098/rsz11rsz3807.jpg

  24. #84
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    Very simple Bellum- they crew was unaware there was a strike inbound. Most likely Israel informed Russia that they were going to hit Hezbollah and Iranian targets in Syria and got assurances that Russian military would not tip off Syria.
    there are statements in twitter with time stamp that Syria clearly knew that attack will happen. its just they cannot have the means to deal with so many projectiles at same time. it is like real life practice on mass scale.
    All this is taken into account for improving the system.
    http://www.armyrecognition.com/may_2...ol_system.html
    Russia successfully tests IA-equipped air defense automatic control system

  25. #85
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    The number of dual citizen Russians-Israeli businessmen and Jewish oligarchs close to Putin is more relevant than any country wide "antisemitism" you are trying to find.

    Grossly OT but Mods tolerate it from some repeated trolls anyways (not you just to be clear).
    wasn't attempting to troll, but while not very familiar with Putin's buddies, I've read that quite a number of jews left Russia after USSR collapsed (when they could) as their situation was rather even more complicated (was already "complicated" before, but leaving wasn't that much of an option) with increased "religious" behavior from many.. anyway, I doubt Russia expects strong ties with Israel considering the relations between Israel and the USA

  26. #86
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    Prior to the collapse of Syria, Israel has grown quite close with the Russians.

    How do we know it struck an authentic PANTSIR and not a decoy?
    Last edited by MadRat; 12th May 2018 at 20:41.
    Go Huskers!

  27. #87
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    Soviet atomic bomb is as old as Israel birth.
    https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,...470781,00.html
    Russia honors Jewish Cold War spy
    Award of nation's highest medal goes to Iowa native George Koval, for helping Soviets develop atomic bomb
    Russia allow Turkey to bomb Syrian kurds but Iraqi kurds are guests at Victory day parade. so it all depend on geography.

    The boarder Russia-Saudi-Israel-UAE alliance will make EU poor that only place EU can make money will be China. and what will China ask in return from EU? and what Russia will ask China in return for doing the favor.

  28. #88
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    The Pantsir was standing on runway 240 of Mezze AB close to the threshold.

  29. #89
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    Does anyone still seriously think that Russia and Israel aren’t allies ?
    http://theduran.com/does-anyone-stil...-arent-allies/
    Israel and Russia are NOT on the verge of war. They are allies !
    http://theduran.com/israel-russia-not-verge-war-allies/

    Israel is just the Japan of the middle east. Russia has good relations with both. But since the US projects its own hegemonic policy through these allies, Russia pushes back on the US through these countries too.
    Last edited by KGB; 13th May 2018 at 00:46.

  30. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBW
    Very simple Bellum- they crew was unaware there was a strike inbound. Most likely Israel informed Russia that they were going to hit Hezbollah and Iranian targets in Syria and got assurances that Russian military would not tip off Syria.

    Pre-strike intelligence identified the Syrian air defense systems that were a threat to strike packages and took them out. Edit- I also don’t think the “incompetence” claim covers it. These guys have been fighting for years. I wouldnt think it’s procedure in any military to cluster together on side of road when airstrikes are going on. Self preservation alone would have had them laying down, or spread out while waiting for resupply during an airstrike. They didn’t know it was coming. The video makes that pretty clear.
    Obviously they didn't know that this specific strike which took out the Pantsir was coming, but I can't quite understand what you are taking an issue with. You ridiculed the idea that the crew was on a "smoke break" after intercepting or trying to intercept Israeli attacks, but in the Israeli video it states that they targeted the Pantsir "following its attempt to fire at IAF fighter jets" and the after picture show that the missile tubes had seen use and had not yet been replaced by new ones. So what you seem to be claiming is that the Pantsir crew never had any idea that any hostile action could be expected that night and thus were not operational at the time of the strike. And the position which so offended your sensibilities is that the Pantsir had done some shooting before the fatal attack and the crew was on a ill-conceived break before rearming, probably assuming that the attack was over.

    Overall seems pretty pointless argument, I guess you are just trying to protect the good image of the Syrian air defence crews.

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