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Thread: Su-57 (PAK FA) News, Discussion and Pics

  1. #91
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    Nice:

    http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/9098/rsz11rsz3807.jpg

  2. #92
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    From that F-16.net link. The truth has a funny way of coming out. The whole western defense media has convinced itself that the Pak Fa isn't stealth (Tyler Rogoway even made a whole post about how unstealth the Pak Fa is. Which is why I don't go there anymore)But now more and more, we keep running into posts like this.

    I think it's going a bit too far to say that the SU-57 only matches a super hornet for RCS. Everything that's been said publicly about stealth design is that the shape of the aircraft is the most important consideration, and that materials are less important.

    The SU-57 beats the pants off of a shornet, rafale, typhoon or gripen or any other aircraft that was designed with only aerodynamics in mind and then stealth features added opportunistically afterward. It has planform alignment. Those other aircraft don't. The horizontal stabs are in the same plane as the wing. Not the case on other 4.5 gens. It had sawtooth panels over the weapons bays, IFR probe, landing gear, etc. Those other aircraft don't. Hell, those other aircraft don't even have internal weapons bays.


  3. #93
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    It's obviously better than SH and Tyler is an idiot.
    "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by TR1
    Nice:

    Fantastic, thanks!

  5. #95
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    Tyler used to write great pieces, even if a little biased at times but nothing one couldn't look past.

    Lately, his articles read like propaganda pieces written by some douche on the Pentagon's payroll

  6. #96
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    gonna wait for anyone doing things in the level of Carlo Kopp's stuff.

  7. #97
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    I <3 that blue-grey the Russians use on their planes.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by KGB
    From that F-16.net link. The truth has a funny way of coming out. The whole western defense media has convinced itself that the Pak Fa isn't stealth (Tyler Rogoway even made a whole post about how unstealth the Pak Fa is. Which is why I don't go there anymore)But now more and more, we keep running into posts like this.

    I think it's going a bit too far to say that the SU-57 only matches a super hornet for RCS. Everything that's been said publicly about stealth design is that the shape of the aircraft is the most important consideration, and that materials are less important.

    The SU-57 beats the pants off of a shornet, rafale, typhoon or gripen or any other aircraft that was designed with only aerodynamics in mind and then stealth features added opportunistically afterward. It has planform alignment. Those other aircraft don't. The horizontal stabs are in the same plane as the wing. Not the case on other 4.5 gens. It had sawtooth panels over the weapons bays, IFR probe, landing gear, etc. Those other aircraft don't. Hell, those other aircraft don't even have internal weapons bays.
    Link?

  9. #99
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    Keep your F-16.net nonsense to PMs. Not everyone here cares.



    http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/9098/rsz11rsz3807.jpg

  10. #100
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    A nice anti glare around the canopy glass there^
    Did they rework the mesh right behind the glass canopy?
    Thanks

  11. #101
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    As a general rule detection range is halved when rcs is reduced by a factor of ten. Airframe rcs has to be reduced multiple factors of ten to reduce detection range to useful levels. Thus it doesn’t matter if SU-57 “beats the pants” off 4th gen fighters. Even if it has 10% the rcs of shornet that still place it in the same class in terms of detectable range. Now I have no idea how these aircraft actually compare, but simply claiming its more stealth than x and y is not meaningful.

  12. #102
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    That's right; but I think that with some basic (engineering) understanding of how RCS scattering (matrix) works and what can be achieved with materials (RAM) we can guess ...

    Thus, contribution of different structures and RCSR based on shaping to the reduction obtained (dominant scatter, combined RCS result ...); materials used; RAM treatments ...

    In relation with a legacy design (4G) where RCSR shaping was not considered at all or only in a limited way (no internal weapons bay, general surfaces alignment ...) 20-30 dB in most important aspects is realistic... that besides the other means. Therefore a new clean design shall be in a different class in terms of observability

  13. #103
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    Even if it has 10% the rcs of shornet that still place it in the same class in terms of detectable range
    This is total nonsense. There's no way that the su 57 has more than 5% more rcs than the F-22. The only reason the su 57 exists is to match and therefore neutralize the stealth advantage coming from the west. Its basic military doctrine. Its why Stalin worked and worked until they developed a nuclear bomb. He didn't just give up half way and call it good. Sukhoi didn't just give up and self sabotage the development of the rsc of the su 57 either.

    The su 35 has supercruise and 5th gen avionics. Russia didn't need another jet.

    If Russia had any doubt about its ability to design a stealth aircraft, it could have just copied the F-22 too. They could have easily copied the same basic design. They did it before. The western defense media just has this burning desire to deny the stealth of the su 57. And its ridiculous.
    Last edited by KGB; 23rd May 2018 at 17:33.

  14. #104
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  15. #105
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    Thank you Bellum for the pic.

    This picture shows that the Izd 30 is just a wee bit shorter in length compared to the AL-41F1.

    Bort 052 landed at Zhukovsky on April 26th.we have the picture of its landing. Where was this Bort all this time between its first flight with Izd 30 engine on Dec 5 and its arrival at Zhukovsky in April?
    Any chance of it being in Akhtubinsk?


    And can any Russian member of this forum give an estimate of the amount that has been invested in the Pakfa program till date?

  16. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by KGB
    This is total nonsense. There's no way that the su 57 has more than 5% more rcs than the F-22. The only reason the su 57 exists is to match and therefore neutralize the stealth advantage coming from the west. Its basic military doctrine. Its why Stalin worked and worked until they developed a nuclear bomb. He didn't just give up half way and call it good. Sukhoi didn't just give up and self sabotage the development of the rsc of the su 57 either.

    The su 35 has supercruise and 5th gen avionics. Russia didn't need another jet.

    If Russia had any doubt about its ability to design a stealth aircraft, it could have just copied the F-22 too. They could have easily copied the same basic design. They did it before. The western defense media just has this burning desire to deny the stealth of the su 57. And its ridiculous.
    http://archive.is/ZHbOH


    (...)
    According to the patent paperwork, taken together, all of the stealthy measures offer significant improvements over legacy fighter designs. The papers claim that the radar cross-section (RCS) of an Su-27 was in the order of 10-15 m 2 , with the intention being to reduce the size of the RCS in the T-50 to an "average figure of 0.1-1 m 2 ".

    (...)





    It is very easy to copy a F-22,....OMG

  17. #107
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    ^ So they only made the RCS of the su 57 10 to 15 times smaller than the 4th gen. Do you actually think that this is a small difference or something ? Reports show that the F-22 was estimated to be between .3 and .5 and that is where they decided to shoot for with the design of the su 57. Anyone with a rational grasp of what stealth is, knows that there is no magical formula that is making the F-22 way smaller than the su 57. Especially when the su 57 is lower profile and sleeker in size to begin with.

    The F-22 would be easier to copy than the Concorde. Its basically an F-15 that's gone through the stealth computer modeling.
    Last edited by KGB; 25th May 2018 at 05:31.

  18. #108
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    AGAIN, average figure is different than maximum RCS reduction,
    The latter is simply a comparative measurement took at a fixed azimuth (+/- 45°) and inclination (-45°)in an anechoic chamber: it has NOT any operative meaning.
    So those 0,000 you see would never happen if not for the blink of a second, as soon as the plane move RCS change.
    Last edited by Marcellogo; 25th May 2018 at 18:47.

  19. #109
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    Interview with Head of UAC Yuri Slyusar

    https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/3637769

    On Su-57 Program

    Tell us, how are the major projects of the corporation going forward? For example, at what stage is the new Su-57? I would also like to know about MS-21. Let's start with the bomber, how are things here?


    - Fighter of the fifth generation. Two significant events. The first is the baptism of fire that the plane received in February in Syria. Two planes took part, directly carrying out the task. And, in fact, we are satisfied with the implementation. I can say without any particular details that the aircraft has fundamentally different capabilities compared to a fighter of the current generation. It is quite competitive, if you compare it with analogues and American, and developed by the Chinese. And the discussion that has recently been on the topic, which is better, is certainly fruitful for us, since it allows us to discuss in a sufficiently broad format the pros and cons of each project. But our plane, of course, we think is the best.

    Well, the second is, of course, an event that is no less significant, it may, in the cultural sense, mean more, it is participation in the parade. The first airplanes took part in the parade. And, of course, the fact that they flew over Red Square, they were seen, for us, such a stage, perhaps from the point of view of directly experimental design work and launching into mass production, is not the most important, but again I say, in a cultural sense for us, of course, such a serious result of our work.

    - When will he go to the series?


    - June-July, we are assigned to sign a contract for the so-called installation lot, this is the first production lot. In 2019, we will take the first production car.

    "Will it go to the troops?"

    - Will go to the troops, will go into operation, yes.
    "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

  20. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by RALL
    http://archive.is/ZHbOH
    ...
    According to the patent paperwork, taken together, all of the stealthy measures offer significant improvements over legacy fighter designs. The papers claim that the radar cross-section (RCS) of an Su-27 was in the order of 10-15 m 2 , with the intention being to reduce the size of the RCS in the T-50 to an "average figure of 0.1-1 m 2 ".
    It is very easy to copy a F-22,....OMG
    Quote Originally Posted by KGB
    Reports show that the F-22 was estimated to be between .3 and .5
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcellogo
    AGAIN, average figure is different than maximum RCS reduction,
    The latter is simply a comparative measurement took at a fixed azimuth (+/- 45°) and inclination (-45°)in an anechoic chamber: it has NOT any operative meaning.
    So those 0,000 you see would never happen if not for the blink of a second, as son as the plane move RCS change.
    Not an expert but have to agree Marcellogo and to some extent KGB from what I have read. Russians do not take seriously those claimed infinitesimal RCS values disclosed in the west for F-22 since they only happen in a theoretical situation: head on at exactly the same level and without additional radars illuminating the stealth plane. They claim Ufimtsev's works had more to them than what was cleared for publication, implying their theoretical understanding of the phenomena is not only not below but actually above those of the US scientists. And they estimate REPEATEDLY F-22's RCS values at 0,3 - 0,5 sqm.

    Just saying, I have no way of proving or discussing this and nobody in the know will do to the point of irrefutably convincing anybody, but each one can make their own conclusions

  21. #111
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    I wonder why do we keep exercising this kind of futile exercise of comparing values without any base assumption or conditions.

    My take on those claims ? Both can be right. Why ? No one state any frequency information. and as seen here. Aircraft RCS can be vary wildly on frequency even when viewed from same aspect.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    It's just a prediction from a software for my KF/IF-X model but i think it's illustrative enough. Both side can make claim and NONE of them lying.

  22. #112
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    Shoigu: 5th gen Su-57s test-launched advanced operative-tactical cruise missiles under battle conditions in Syria this February.



    https://twitter.com/KomissarWhipla/s...55128290922496
    Last edited by Austin; 25th May 2018 at 17:52.
    "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

  23. #113
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    Holy ****. finally.

  24. #114
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    Probably X-59MK2

    Click image for larger version. 

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  25. #115
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    ^Misses the point.

    The F-22 and su 57 both have planform alignment. They both have been designed with stealth computer models. There is not argument to make that the F-22 is markedly more stealth than the su 57. Anyone who suggests that there is not thinking rationally.

  26. #116
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    Three of the four new aerial ordnance weapons displayed by the Tactical Missiles Corporation – GROM E1/E2 guided, standoff weapon, X-59Mk2 cruise missile and X-58USHKE/IIR stand-off anti-radiation attack missile. Photo: Tamir Eshel, Defense-Update
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Has to be one of the above if any
    Last edited by haavarla; 25th May 2018 at 22:13.
    Thanks

  27. #117
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    There is not argument to make that the F-22 is markedly more stealth than the su 57. Anyone who suggests that there is not thinking rationally.
    We will have to wait to see a production representative Su-57 before making that kind of comparison. A lot of potential issues need to be looked at from inlet blockers, rivets, engine treatments, etc.
    "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

  28. #118
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    @LMFS

    No, it's even worse, the published comparative value is not the +/- 0 degrees azimuth and 0° inclination as this one would almost allow the plane to point its own nose directly toward the radar emitter, it's instead usually the double 45° degree both in azimut than elevation.
    That because stealth, contrary to popular belief, was not thought to be used as an air to air tool but to avoid detection from AD network so they were more interested into calculating reduction toward emission coming from the ground.
    Needless to say frontal (+/- 0°), tail (+/- 180°) and above all lateral (+/- 90°) rcs are order of magnitude higher than both reference and the same average one.

    Difference between frontal and tail aspect as the one published fro Su-57 0,1/1 sqm are instead way less relevant as in this case doppler beam sharpening goes into negative more than compensating the higher RCS (unless emitter is on a faster moving plane than it, bonne chance...).

  29. #119
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    We will have to wait to see a production representative Su-57 before making that kind of comparison. A lot of potential issues need to be looked at from inlet blockers, rivets, engine treatments, etc.
    Rivets? You mean sunken milled screw's.


    plural noun: rivets

    1.

    a short metal pin or bolt for holding together two plates of metal, its headless end being beaten out or pressed down when in place.

    "a rectangular plate containing an iron rivet"

    verb

    3rd person present: rivets

    1.

    join or fasten (plates of metal) with a rivet or rivets.

    "the linings are bonded, not riveted, to the brake shoes for longer wear"

    2.

    fix (someone or something) so as to make them incapable of movement.

    "the grip on her arm was firm enough to rivet her to the spot"

    synonymer:fixed, rooted, frozen;
    Last edited by haavarla; 25th May 2018 at 19:27.
    Thanks

  30. #120
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    Yes, that's what I meant.

    Basically, what will the production RCS treatments look like.
    "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

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