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Thread: Future Franco-German MPA

  1. #1
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    Future Franco-German MPA

    Germany, France eyeing joint development of new maritime patrol aircraft

    e new aircraft is set to replace Germany’s P-3C Orion aircraft and France’s Breguet Atlantique 2 which are currently in service.
    The new aircraft is to be ready to enter service by the time its predecessors start retiring. Both French and German MPAs are scheduled to retire in the early 2030s.
    Fascinating perspectives. Given that Germany discarded the Atlantic for a fleet of leased P-3 and that French politicians are grown to enter in a catatonic state at the single mention of LM, it should be expected that the future MPA would be built on a new platform. But what could it be?


    My favorite guess today would be toward a Q400 derivative (Airbus bought Bombardier and this airplane has much better performances to fulfill the role than the sluggish ATR-72 does).
    If a jet, the question remains open. As the possibility of a heavy specific UCAV, what would lead to some tremendous challenges and beyond opportunities for both national industry.

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    (Sourced from the News thread - posted by Tango III)
    Last edited by TomcatViP; 6th April 2018 at 21:57.

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    How can less be more? It's impossible. More is more.
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    i also think an Airbus A320/319neo is the likely platform, they have stated that the new aircraft is idealy suited for the role.
    if Airbus wants to compete with boeing, it will have to develop a better MPA, as for certain roles, theyre C295-MPA falls a little short, especialy for countries with a larger coastline, like France.

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    Marine life will enjoy the quieter design base.
    Go Huskers!

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    And present C295-MPA would be a huge capability step back as compared two modernized ATL2.

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    The best A400M. turboprop for low altitude flying and short field performance. the range of A320 will be too low and will need long runway once equipment is installed.

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    My favorite guess today would be toward a Q400 derivative (Airbus bought Bombardier and this airplane has much better performances to fulfill the role than the sluggish ATR-72 does).
    Airbus haven't bought Bombardier. The Q400 is not associated with the Airbus-Bombardier-Quebec C-Series venture. There have been a few integrators offering their systems on an MPA variant ( SAAB, L3 and IAI ) but no-one has shown interest as yet. And frankly with Bombardier's constant state of semi-failure no-one knows if the Q400 will even be available by 2030.

    I don't see the A400M being a contender, traditionally MPA conversions of transporters have sold in single-digit quantities. They're just the wrong shape for a dozen crew at low-level.

    To me it would be logical to go in with Japan on the P-1 instead of splitting the non-P-8 market even smaller, but in the end it'll probably be something boring based on the A320 or C-Series.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherry Ripe View Post
    To me it would be logical to go in with Japan on the P-1 instead of splitting the non-P-8 market even smaller, but in the end it'll probably be something boring based on the A320 or C-Series.
    This.

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    the range of A320 will be too low and will need long runway once equipment is installed.
    a standard A320 yes, but not one equiped with additional fuel tanks like the ACJ320 series, witch gives the aircraft a transatlantic range.
    STOL requirements these days are not a requirement, just look at the Boeing P-8/737.

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    I have looked at P-8 about 7000km range but no mention what flight altitude and how much fuel used. US has fracked Oil and willing to tolerate large trade deficits so the systems are reflection of it. EU has its own limitations so it simply cannot follow similar systems development and sustainment.

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    Don't be so certain on that, when the Lockheed P-7 LRAACA was cancelled leaving the USN running the P-3 on longer and forcing the UK to seek an alternative replacement for the Nimrod MR2 British Aerospace conducted a study of what would be the most suitable airframe to act as the basis for a new MPA. Their conclusion was the still in early development FLA which would become the A400M. As the the FLA was many years away from service they were forced to seek an alternative leading us down the path to the Nimrod 2000/MRA4 debacle. My personal opinion is they should have partnered with Boeing and put forward a solution based upon the 757, Boeing had already conducted some basic development work for the LRAACA program and the aircraft more than met range and payload requirements.

    http://www.boeing.com/news/frontiers...i_history.html

    Anyway all history now, to be honest the P-8a is pretty much becoming the clear choice as a P-3 replacement but if France an Germany really want to go it alone it is a far less risky proposition now. The FITS system is mature and many of the sensors are available off the shelf if you wanted to make an A320 based MPA.
    Because sometimes in life we need a bit of fun

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    I am not sure that Germany would need a Jet. Given that the north sea is their main area of operation, a low to medium cruise altitude could be suitable. There is hence room for a turboprop with low transit time.

    But Cherry Ripe is right. I would like to see the 4 engined, frwd centered P1 in service too. I won't trust an A320 for that mission (airframe wise).

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    I just don't see the P1 ever getting an export sale, it is expensive with an entirely Japanese-centric weapons and systems fit that is not compatible with the majority of weapons on the market without expensive integration.

    If a country is in the market for a long range MPA and is friendly with the US the P-8 is the obvious choice, most countries don't need that and there are plenty of twin engine turbo prop MPA available to buy.

    If France and Germany are in the market for that class of MPA then I am hard pressed to see why they shouldn't just buy the P-8 and be done with it.
    Because sometimes in life we need a bit of fun

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXNAp3mKepc

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    The A320neo is the base, but there is no reason to judge the final design based upon the civilian form. First off, it's going to trade creature comforts found in an airliner for equipment to fulfill its mission.

    The P-1 is a beautiful jet. But the P-8 is far more cost-effective. The goal of keeping work at home is self defeating in this case. It would be better for their economy to settle on P-8 over a new build based on A320neo no matter how great the latter airframe could be with enough money sunk into it. That's money basically wasted.
    Last edited by MadRat; 9th April 2018 at 02:34.
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    With Trump trade behaviour...French and Germany will go with Airbus..Airbus already shown their concept for A-320 MPA. Why should French and Germany buy Boeing, when Airbus alternative can easily developed..Thus is French and Germany we are talking about, not UK.

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    Name on next generation MPA platform that was ever easy. There is your answer.
    Go Huskers!

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    Next French and German MPA will be Boeing P8.

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    I could understand if the P-8 hardware, suite and sensors were taken out and installed into an Airbus A320.. but why should Germany and France settle for B737 based airframes is beyond me..

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    Because the Germans and French don't have unlimited funds to develop a MPA and also a new fighter aircraft. The new fighter program will be a black hole sucking down a huge percentage of available RnD for the next decade. Other programs will suffer and A320 MPA is an entire program built to duplicate P8 for a plane that a best has few hundred export orders if it succeeds. It will also be a decade minimum before it is ready and will suffer by being late to market versus P8.

    If they build an A320 MPA it really indicates that they wont be developing a new fighter aircraft.
    Last edited by Siddar; 9th April 2018 at 12:09.

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    Unlikely to be a 320, and even more a P-8 base platform, IMHO.

    I bet on a Falcon platform, as it was just selected to be the next SIGINT aircraft. FAF is not Indian airforce, it is not stupid (nor has enough money to throw overboard) to have hundreds of different platforms while a single one (or a closely related one) to fill various roles.

    ..and frankly I hardly see Airbus Military/DS get any large, risk-prone project (or its lead) anytime soon.
    Last edited by EC 5/25 Corsair; 9th April 2018 at 15:19.

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    Get the P1 already! It looks BIG + it has a bomb bay & a superb blue colour.

    Nic

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    ..and frankly I hardly see Airbus Military/DS get any large, risk-prone project (or its lead) anytime soon.
    They´ve pretty much imposed the Euro Male design. There´s also the Tiger upgrade and a few others.

    Cheers
    Last edited by Sintra; 9th April 2018 at 18:01.

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    I thought it was forbidden to be a male in europe nowadays

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    I thought it was forbidden to be a male in europe nowadays
    That might explain something

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    A320 is also assembled in China. they approaching 400 build. It is far cheaper to outsource this MPA build to Chinese.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EC 5/25 Corsair View Post
    Unlikely to be a 320, and even more a P-8 base platform, IMHO.

    I bet on a Falcon platform, as it was just selected to be the next SIGINT aircraft.
    Lol. That’ll be popular with the Germans. French design, manufactured in France, equipped with what will inevitably be mostly French mission systems. The German Navy may as well cut out the complication and go with the in-service P-8.

    If Germans are to participate, the least they can expect is a Franco-German platform i.e. an Airbus; the A318, if fuel savings are the paramount concern.

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    My favorite guess today would be toward a Q400 derivative (Airbus bought Bombardier and this airplane has much better performances to fulfill the role than the sluggish ATR-72 does).
    I bet on a Falcon platform, as it was just selected to be the next SIGINT aircraft.
    I have to agree with Vnomad about the German attitude to an all-French platform, & I think that an MPA based on something with <40% of the max TO weight of the P-8 (e.g. Q400 or the biggest Falcon) isn't going to be seriously considered. Something able to carry & power more & better sensors, plus weapons, with a long range & endurance will be wanted - even by the Germans. They deploy outside the Baltic & North Sea sometimes.

    This Franco-German initiative comes on top of a larger multinational co-operation on a possible joint future MPA, by France, Germany, Greece, Italy, Spain, Turkey, Canada and Poland. That isn't an agreement to develop one, but it's working on requirements. Spain & Canada operate upgraded P-3s, & I think aren't likely to want to downgrade to a platform able to lift half as much.

    If France & Germany develop their own MPA, with whatever other countries they can get on board (Spain's probably the best bet), I think an A320 series platform is most likely, as Fedaykin says - maybe an A320neo with LEAP engines. A bit of work's already been done on airframe changes, AFAIK, & it's big enough. It also has a huge civilian user base. Otherwise, that's a list of P-8 customers.

    If it wasn't NIH, a P-1 with European systems could be a candidate, but I don't think its realistic.

    Individual W. European NATO air forces can & nowadays sometimes do share logistics, so extra types aren't much of a problem as long as neighbours also buy them. For example, nobody's buying two or three tankers: they club together.

    Development of a new MPA based on an existing platform isn't going to be in the same league as developing a new fighter, so it's not an alternative. Look at what SAAB has got a new AEW aircraft with surface search ability into the air for. It wouldn't be that cheap, but still small beer compared to a fighter.
    Last edited by swerve; 10th April 2018 at 18:02.
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    I won't trust an A320 for that mission (airframe wise).
    So I presume you don't trust the 737 airframe, & thus the P-8.
    Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
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    C'mon you know the difference. 320 rely on FBW to fly. There is now direct laws to handle the plane in case of damages. We already have seen airframe crashing due to in-weather severe turbulences. This is not a fighter jet with a single jokey. You will have dozen of people exposed to fire (think piratery, manpad...).
    One thing that you need for sure is a stable, Fwd centered airframe.
    Last edited by TomcatViP; 10th April 2018 at 21:48.

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    it will probably be an A320 family derivative. They'll produce the basic airframes in Toulouse and Hamburg and probably send them to Getafe for "militarization". That's what they do with A330 MRTTs and that's what i find logical for A320 MPA versions, particularly considering that Airbus military is headquartered in Madrid and that they are already producing MPA version of C295. This last part may vary depending on the actual equipment to be installed and other industrial considerations but i think that fits the two main partners and their smaller likely associate.
    C295 is to small + the industrial share for either France or Germany wouldn´t be that significant.
    A400 could be a contender but I think AIRBUS intention is to keep militarizing comercial airframes as in the long term it makes sense regarding economies of escale.

    P8? I don't see the point since AIRBUS already produce the airframes and even MPAs, and have part of its business focused in militarization of comercial platforms, sure it could be a less riskier maneuvre but also was A330 in the KC-X tanker competition. In the end industrial considerations are a key part for these programs and from my point of view militarization of A320 is a pretty straight forward movement for Germany, France and probably also for Spain (in much lesser numbers though).

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