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Thread: Israel Air launched Stunner (Python-6) speculation thread

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    Israel Air launched Stunner (Python-6) speculation thread

    It seem like Israel modified theirSAM to make a new AAM



    Specs of original ground launched Stunner
    David's Sling (Hebrew: קלע דוד‎, translit. Kelah Da'vid), also formerly known as Magic Wand (Hebrew: שרביט קסמים‎, translit. Sharvit Ksamim), is an Israel Defense Forces military system being jointly developed by the Israeli defense contractor Rafael Advanced Defense Systems and the American defense contractor Raytheon, designed to intercept enemy planes, drones, tactical ballistic missiles, medium- to long-range rockets and cruise missiles, fired at ranges from 40 km (24.85 miles) to 300 km (186.41 miles) with speeds of up to mach 7.5
    Guidance system: AESA Millimeter 3D Radar + Dual Electro-Optical / (FPA) / Imaging Infrared (CCD/IIR) Seeker + 3 Way Data Link With Advanced Real-time Automatic and Manual Re-targeting Capability
    Steering system: Advanced Asymmetric Kill Vehicle With Advanced Super Maneuverability Steering Capability For Super Maneuver Trajectory During Kill Stage
    Any speculation about the potential specs of the air launched version ? it looks like the second stage of ground version without the booster, the missiles seem somewhat smaller than AIM-120, but it is a hit to kill missiles so probably can carry more fuel ?

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    probably that the 40km range is what you should look for: it might describe the maximum theoretical range at max theoretical alt, hence the one where the booster is fully expended to gain some altitude before the internal engine of the missile take-over)

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    Would be great if they could mix the Python-6 sensor with Meteor body.

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    I was under the impression this was cancelled in favor of I-Derby-ER

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    Quote Originally Posted by TomcatViP
    probably that the 40km range is what you should look for: it might describe the maximum theoretical range at max theoretical alt, hence the one where the booster is fully expended to gain some altitude before the internal engine of the missile take-over
    Comparing their relative length with the AIM-120, the air launched version of stunner seem to be 20% longer than the second stage of ground launched version. As it doesn't have a warhead i think it could approach the range of AIM-120, may be equal to MICA ?

    Last edited by mig-31bm; 28th January 2018 at 10:23.

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    I was under the impression this was cancelled in favor of I-Derby-ER
    I-Derby-ER is a poor man AMRAAM whereas Stunner is the world's first air to air missile with AESA radar sensor and EO sensor and kinematic rival that of Meteor.

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    Does it really "AESA seeker" ? Especially if it's mm wave band. Does cross section image of the missiles available ? The fire control radar tho is indeed AESA. s far as i browse it's a dual mode seeker but i found no real mention of it's being an AESA.

    Performance tho. This subject on weight and launch profile but it seems that it would do the same range at least as the AMRAAM-D.

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    thanks for the clarification.
    yeah I also have some questions about the AESA seeker as the radome looks unique. (also any explanation to why its asymmetrical)?

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    I-Derby-ER is a poor man AMRAAM whereas Stunner is the world's first air to air missile with AESA radar sensor and EO sensor and kinematic rival that of Meteor.
    Surely Japanese AAM-4B holds that title and I doubt it can approach Meteor's range with any solid rocket motor, unless much larger. In the pictures it appears smaller than an AMRAAM.

    thanks for the clarification.
    yeah I also have some questions about the AESA seeker as the radome looks unique. (also any explanation to why its asymmetrical)?
    According to some sources it's AESA and IIR dual mode.
    Last edited by St. John; 28th January 2018 at 11:38.

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    Don't forget that its alleged Mach 7 top speed would give it a fair range in a boost-glide profile.

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    I'm confused here. The ground-launched Stunner was assumed to have a speed of Mach 7.5 and a range of 250-300km with the booster motor, however it later turned out to be 160km and the Mach 7.5 and 300km figures referred to maximum target speed and range, making it more of an Aster 30 type missile.

    https://fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf



    The air-launched version will not have the booster stage, and seems to have similar proportions to the Derby (3.6m, 160mm diameter). How that's going to exceed 100km is a mystery, let alone 200km.
    Last edited by St. John; 28th January 2018 at 13:34.

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    The air-launched version will not have the booster stage, and seems to have similar proportions to the Derby (3.6m, 160mm diameter). How that's going to exceed 100km is a mystery, let alone 200km
    SAM version of Derby (SPYDER-MR) has similar booster size and length to David's Sling Stunner. However, SPYDER-MR is limited to maximum range of 50 km and top speed of Mach 4 while Stunner can reach 160 km with top speed of Mach 7.5. May be the elimination of warhead give Stunner that much more propellant?. The air version doesn't have the booster but the length is extended and it has the benefits of high altitude/speed launch.

    Last edited by garryA; 28th January 2018 at 15:11.

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    There's some confusion in these ranges. Spyder-MR has two distinct variants - a Python 5 + booster and Derby + booster. The 50km seems a very generic statement that can't apply to both, since the missiles minus booster have very different A2A ranges. Meanwhile the Barak-8 there has a range of 90km. Dubious figures. The speed figure is especially dubious. I.e. speed of Aster 30 - M4.5, speed of 48N6E3 - M6.6, range 250km. Meanwhile Rafael's own website has absolutely no mention of range for the Sling. I basically think target capabilities are being confused with missile capabilities a lot here.

    http://www.rafael.co.il/5618-694-en/Marketing.aspx

    If we were to work with the figures, 50-160km for SAM should also work out to 50-160km for A2A minus booster but I think the figures are misleading. It's difficult to believe that range for a missile that size.
    Last edited by St. John; 28th January 2018 at 15:29.

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    It can intercept target moving at Mach 7.5. not its top speed. The real velocity of the missile itself could be less.

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    Real speed would have to less than mach 7.5 to intercept in atmosphere. The reason AA missiles haven't gone above mach 4 is the reentry type effect blocking all communications/seeking both in and out rendering the system blind once you reach mach 5 in atmosphere.

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    Another observation would be that these HTK missiles with 'no warhead' actually do have a warhead.
    http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic....53723&start=15

    A third observation would be that missiles with no warhead might not lead to aircraft destruction and could lead to missile copying, as with the AIM-9B that hit a MiG-17 over the Taiwan Straight in 1958.

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    Spyder-MR has two distinct variants - a Python 5 + booster and Derby + booster. The 50km seems a very generic statement that can't apply to both, since the missiles minus booster have very different A2A ranges
    The engagement range of SPYDER-MR was advertised by Rafael, if Derby with booster can reach further than 50 km, i think they would have used that figure, better marketing and all that.
    On the otherhand, i also think the speed and range is somewhat dubious given that David sling Stunner is actually smaller than Derby-MR


    Another observation would be that these HTK missiles with 'no warhead' actually do have a warhead.
    A third observation would be that missiles with no warhead might not lead to aircraft destruction and could lead to missile copying, as with the AIM-9B that hit a MiG-17 over the Taiwan Straight in 1958
    Big HTK SAM like PAC-3 could have the enhanced lethality "warhead" but i don't think it exists on tiny missiles such as Stunner.
    AIM-9B is much slower than current AAM we have in our inventory.
    Last edited by garryA; 28th January 2018 at 16:14.

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    Stunner does not have that long range as a lot many publications have often wrongly cited the maximum TBM envelope as its own range. As a concept the performance was kept reasonable to keep costs low as it goes after the very short range ballistic missiles where it is cost prohibitive to use the Patriot or arrow. No LE warhead exists so it is entirely hit to kill which limits its target set. Will still be a good weapon for low cost work against cruise and short range ballistic missiles much like the NCADE concept.
    Last edited by bring_it_on; 28th January 2018 at 16:53.
    Old radar types never die; they just phased array

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    They are spending $125m on R&D and looking at post 2020 timeframe. The Cheapest integration of Meteor with Gripen cost $70m and that like 5 years ago. Israel cost structure is more like lab experiment.

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    kinematic rival that of Meteor
    Given that it has the motor equiv of a 9X, it does not come close to the Meteor.
    "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

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