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Thread: What is Qatar doing?

  1. #1
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    What is Qatar doing?

    https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...opping-444485/

    According to this article Qatar has ordered:
    36x F-15
    36x Rafale
    36x Typhoon

    Won't this be a logistical nightmare for the tiny country that only operates 12x Mirage 2000 fighters? I understand you don't want to put all of your eggs in one basket but this seems like a financial disaster with training and logistics for three different types of fighters. All three types perform the same role. If they wanted to spend so much money on their air force then I would have suggested this fleet instead:
    36x F-15 or Rafale or Typhoon (for the Hi mix)
    36x Gripen NG (for the low mix)
    36x SU-34 (for the strike capability)

    What does everyone else think about Qatar's spending spree?
    -=*J33NELSON*=-

  2. #2
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    Trying to buy insurance from major western nations who might accuse them of providing financial support and arms to some very unsavory people.

  3. #3
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    Only 24 Eurofighters at the moment. 12 more are optional (similar to the Rafale deal).

    Quote Originally Posted by J33Nelson
    I understand you don't want to put all of your eggs in one basket but this seems like a financial disaster with training and logistics for three different types of fighters.
    On the contrary, this is about wanting to curry political influence through arms purchases.

    Qatar is a city state with a local citizenry only around 300,000 strong, most of whom live very comfortable (and decidedly non-martial) lives. If its GCC neighbours decided to roll up at the door, there is little the govt can do to prevent it from being absorbed into the Saudi state. And given Qatar's resources, it'd be a rather profitable invasion.

    But through these deals, influential Western states (along with Turkey and others) have been given a strong business interest in the continued survival of the Qatari state. Keep in mind, all these aircraft ordered will be delivered over the next 5-10 years. In the meantime, if the incumbent regime is overthrown, these contracts are likely to be torn up or at least heavily "renegotiated" by the new establishment.

  4. #4
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    I don't understand the thought process of buying three different twin engine heavy fighters from three different countries? If Qatar wants political influence through arms purchases then buy aircraft/helicopters from one country, ships/submarines from another country, and air defense/ground equipment from the third country. That seems a lot more balanced then buying three different twin engine fighters that all fill the same role.
    -=*J33NELSON*=-

  5. #5
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    er, Rafale there is 36 signed orders and option for 36 more, in fact. If they sign for the second batch, that would be 72 rafales

  6. #6
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    At one time even the F-15 deal was to be 72 aircraft strong.
    Old radar types never die; they just phased array

  7. #7
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    They do not care about logistical nightmare because they can afford to pay for the extortionate maintenance services to keep these machines airworthy. In any case they are not buying these fighters to protect the little kingdom (who will be flying them...qatari pilots?). It is a sort of protection money to save them from the rest of GCC. Remember President Trump's comments at the start of GCC Qatar saga? And now the US is selling F-15s to that nation. MIC influence in action backed by geopolitics.

  8. #8
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    The F-15 feels to dated for me.. For a non partisan air force, that would fill Russia, US, and Europe's order books, Id go..

    30x su 35 high mix multi roll
    15x EF typhoon pure interceptor

    20x F-16's for low mix
    15x su 34's for strike

  9. #9
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    thats a good point KGB.
    given that Qatars enemies..the saudis and UAE are anti Russian.. Qatar should've considered Russian equipment.
    Also agree with the others.. the spending doesn't have to be exclusively aviation related. more ships, tanks, etc would've been good.
    well not sure what their navy has.. their army already has some really top notch stuff. Leopard 2A7s, THAAD, etc.

  10. #10
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    Could Qatar order up Russian stuff come 2018?
    Thanks

  11. #11
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    It is easy to understand. Three different nations are three independent insurances, just in case one or two may drop out under Saudi pressure. Military relevance is nil, when not bought for political purposes. For example to be part of a coalition and add some military force to that. All the emirates are in constant danger to be absorbed by their bigger neighbors. See the example of Kuwait, when the own military was/is useless, whatever it fields.

  12. #12
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    What does Russia buy from Katar to have an intrest to lower its debts by military sales?! Katar is not intrested in ground forces posing a constant danger to the regime.

  13. #13
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    ^What about Anti air systems?
    Thanks

  14. #14
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    They are running out of Western systems to order so ordering some Russian or Chinese systems, either aircraft or ground equipment, does not seem outside the realm of possibility. In fact, I think it is quite likely in the next year or two. Their Air-Defense deals with the US OEMs were to conclude in late 2014/early 2015 for the Patriot and involved something like 10-11 Patriot Units, along with 1000 or so Interceptors ( 700-800 PAC-3s and the remaining PAC-2s). They then signed a deal with Raytheon for the UEWR but the deal with Lockheed for THAAD (2 units with 150 or so interceptors) had not been completed as of mid 2016ish iirc. They also had a pending deal (announced/DSCA but never concluded) for the 737 AEW (E-7A) which doesn't seem to be going anywhere.
    Last edited by bring_it_on; 28th December 2017 at 12:59.
    Old radar types never die; they just phased array

  15. #15
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    Qatar is a city state with a local citizenry only around 300,000 strong, most of whom live very comfortable (and decidedly non-martial) lives. If its GCC neighbours decided to roll up at the door, there is little the govt can do to prevent it from being absorbed into the Saudi state. And given Qatar's resources, it'd be a rather profitable invasion.

    But through these deals, influential Western states (along with Turkey and others) have been given a strong business interest in the continued survival of the Qatari state. Keep in mind, all these aircraft ordered will be delivered over the next 5-10 years. In the meantime, if the incumbent regime is overthrown, these contracts are likely to be torn up or at least heavily "renegotiated" by the new establishment.
    Persuasive perception.

    I don't understand the thought process of buying three different twin engine heavy fighters from three different countries? If Qatar wants political influence through arms purchases then buy aircraft/helicopters from one country, ships/submarines from another country, and air defense/ground equipment from the third country. That seems a lot more balanced then buying three different twin engine fighters that all fill the same role.
    I'm baffled, too.
    Sum ergo cogito

  16. #16
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    What does Russia buy from Katar to have an intrest to lower its debts by military sales?! Katar is not intrested in ground forces posing a constant danger to the regime.
    Russia does not need to buy anything from katar to squeeze money out of it.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-r...-idUSKBN1CV11E
    Qatar, Russia sign agreements on air defense, supplies
    Well if they can fund Sudan better its good for Russian exports. previously Sudan was funded well by Saudis but we have to see what role Sudan airforce play.
    http://www.sudantribune.com/spip.php?article64352
    Sudan, Russia and Qatar hold military discussions in Khartoum

  17. #17
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    Precisely what djcross said.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by J33Nelson
    I don't understand the thought process of buying three different twin engine heavy fighters from three different countries? If Qatar wants political influence through arms purchases then buy aircraft/helicopters from one country, ships/submarines from another country, and air defense/ground equipment from the third country. That seems a lot more balanced then buying three different twin engine fighters that all fill the same role.
    Fighter jets are the most manpower-light capital-intensive investments one can make in defence. Going from 12 Mirages to 100 odd aircraft over a period of 5-7 years isn't that big a challenge (relatively speaking). They'd need to train a 100-120 odd pilots with most of the maintenance element being contracted out to the OEM.

    Alternatively, they could remain understaffed and put the aircraft back on the market in 10-15 years time. India would very likely be interested in surplus Rafales, with probably South Korea & Japan being viable options to offload the F-15Qs.

    Now if they had decided to spend $ 8 billion on naval vessels, they'd have found themselves having to operate a fleet of 10-12 frigates or submarines. That's a massive jump up from the half a dozen 500 ton FACs they operate today. They'd need to build a entire new naval base to accommodate them while facing even more serious manpower challenges - recruiting officers to fly fighter jets from the airbase next door is far simpler than recruiting sailors & technicians to go out to sea for weeks at end while being paid a significantly lower wage.

    Similar problem with air defence/ground equipment. Operating it is by-and-large a blue collar job. Which makes their purchase less than ideal for a country where blue collar jobs are performed by immigrant/expat workers.
    Last edited by Vnomad; 28th December 2017 at 19:13.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TooCool_12f
    er, Rafale there is 36 signed orders and option for 36 more, in fact. If they sign for the second batch, that would be 72 rafales
    That's the current status. The EF's deal is similar to the one signed for the Rafale last year (24+12).

  20. #20
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    Tbh, i know a security officer presently eatihng his hat. There are real issues to deliver security clearances to so many newly qatari ppl...

  21. #21
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    The current tiny air force is reliant on contractors from other countries, including Pakistani pilots. Just buying 100 aeroplanes from miscellaneous sources will not create a meaningful air force, there are other elements to think of too.

    Currently it looks like protection money to US, France and UK, however I suspect Turks might come to the rescue to help Qatar air force, given the current situation in mid east.

  22. #22
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    They're cashing in on political capital. This spending spree has little to do with defense. Like it was stated earlier, the QEAF would take years to become operational to combat readiness on the new equipment. The Qatari government is spreading money all around the world to influence their position in the world, politically.

  23. #23
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    I don't understand the thought process of buying three different twin engine heavy fighters from three different countries? If Qatar wants political influence through arms purchases then buy aircraft/helicopters from one country, ships/submarines from another country, and air defense/ground equipment from the third country. That seems a lot more balanced then buying three different twin engine fighters that all fill the same role.
    More than three countries. Almost a new navy has been ordered from Italy, coastguard vessels from Turkey, tanks & artillery from Germany, etc.

    In general, they have bought each class of weapon from one supplier, e.g. C-17 & A330MRTT. The fighters are exceptions.
    Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
    Justinian

  24. #24
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    Vnomad:
    Now if they had decided to spend $ 8 billion on naval vessels, they'd have found themselves having to operate a fleet of 10-12 frigates or submarines. That's a massive jump up from the half a dozen 500 ton FACs they operate today. They'd need to build a entire new naval base to accommodate them while facing even more serious manpower challenges
    Not quite USD $8 bn. Only €5bn on an LPD/small LHD, four 'corvettes' with Aster SAMs & a couple of OPVs.
    Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
    Justinian

  25. #25
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    As others and Freehand has most succinctly stated Qatar is cashing in on political capital.

    The thing is they are not the only Gulf state doing this, the last twelve months has been a veritable buying spree amongst the Sunni ruled GCC states! They are all putting in big ticket purchases from multiple sources.

    In my opinion the penny is finally starting to drop that the Oil is finite and very few of them have properly prepared for life after Oil. Ironically Persian Iran having spent decades outside is sitting on huge reserves of Oil and Gas plus unlike the Arab states has the ability to feed itself due to its large tracts of farmable land.

    (Good lord I am starting to sound like JSR!)
    Because sometimes in life we need a bit of fun

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXNAp3mKepc

  26. #26
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    The thing is they are not the only Gulf state doing this, the last twelve months has been a veritable buying spree amongst the Sunni ruled GCC states! They are all putting in big ticket purchases from multiple sources.
    last twelve months have been good for energy and metal prices. Pallidium is the star.


    In my opinion the penny is finally starting to drop that the Oil is finite and very few of them have properly prepared for life after Oil. Ironically Persian Iran having spent decades outside is sitting on huge reserves of Oil and Gas plus unlike the Arab states has the ability to feed itself due to its large tracts of farmable land.
    It does not matter what reserves they are sitting on it. the price of protection and extraction of those reserves going up. the more they remove subsidies the higher the will pay salaries from Pilots to everything else in that economic system.
    All those Tu-22M3M/Tu-160M/Tu-95MSM with latest missiles will create the sustainable strike capability.


    (Good lord I am starting to sound like JSR!)
    yup the slow turn around.

  27. #27
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    No, it's alright JSR is still spouting gibberish...I haven't gone mad yet!
    Because sometimes in life we need a bit of fun

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXNAp3mKepc

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