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Thread: So why are the Austrians ditching Typhoon?

  1. #1
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    So why are the Austrians ditching Typhoon?

    Austria’s deliberately down-graded Eurofighters are to be retired prematurely, amid criticism of missing capabilities:


    On 7 July 2017 Austria’s Social Democrat Defence Minister Hans Peter Doskozil announced that the Luftstreitkräfte (Austrian air force) would end operations of its fleet of 15 single-seat Tranche-1/Block-5/2R Eurofighters prematurely, some time between 2020-2023.

    The Minister was quoted as saying that: “It was necessary to halt the overflowing costs of a Eurofighter which does not have the full capabilities needed for our sovereign air-surveillance. Subsequently we today announce that the Eurofighter in Austrian service is history!”

    At the same press conference, Brigadier Karl Gruber, the commander of the Austrian air force melodramatically said that: “I want to be assured that my pilots are not sentenced to death, when in the future (they) may be meeting a defecting, renegade Su-27 and its pursuers...”

    The impression given was that the Eurofighter was too expensive, and was inherently lacking in capability, and that the Tranche 1 version used by Austria was effectively obsolescent and might be difficult to support. The official Austrian Bundeswehr (armed forces) website described the Tranche 1 aircraft as having “limited equipment and significant cost uncertainty.”
    Brigadier Gruber pointed out that the Tranche 1 version of the aircraft was only operated by the core member countries of the Eurofighter consortium — the UK, Germany, Italy and Spain – and that since those countries had “developed different concepts for the future,” he said. “it appears likely that there will be no uniform Eurofighter Typhoon Tranche 1 system in the future.”

    This is extremely misleading, since the Tranche 1 Eurofighter Typhoon remains one of the most capable and most effective air defence aircraft in service today, while with proper support arrangements, other operators are finding costs to be reasonable. Moreover, the UK RAF has recently delivered a real boost in the Tranche 1 aircraft’s long term future by committing to retain it in service until 2035, thereby ensuring that the type will be fully supported for at least another 18 years.

    Furthermore any lack of capability in Austria’s Tranche 1 Eurofighter aircraft is very much restricted to the specific Austrian configuration, and is the direct result of ‘unique-to-Austria’ procurement decisions, which saw the Alpine nation order a version of the aircraft which quite deliberately lacked a number of key items of equipment, in a short-sighted attempt to shave cost from the programme.

    More at:

    https://www.facebook.com/aerospacean...59527507586743

  2. #2
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    Long time no see.

    I think that the former Austrian Minister of Disarmament sorry Defence, Norbert Darabos (a man who had stated that there was no point in Austria having fighter aircraft), was chiefly responsible for the downgrading & cutting numbers for hardly any savings fiasco, & seemed to regard it as a triumph. He seemed to be more interested in cutting capabilities than saving money.

    His successors don't seem much, if any, better, though.
    Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
    Justinian

  3. #3
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    Austria has deliberately requested that their own Typhoons would had to be downgraded even in comparison to the first batch standard, so this jerk is actually making jokes of his own nation, not of Eurofighter.
    However even Italy has put on the market a part of its own first tranche planes.
    That's because the eurofighters from batch 8 onward are designed with an open architecture allowing to plug&play new capability just updating sowtware while the previous one would require a much more greater effort to be taken at latest standard.
    To avoid what happened with the Tornado, built at a common standard but updated separately by each partecipant so to became uncompatible one with the others, it was envisaged to develop updates by a common standard but to leave each nation to adopt them or not.
    It doesn't worked perfectly, thank to Good Puppy urge to appease Doublya that lead Uk to implement some A2G capability on its own (and pay them in full) but such a possibility was actually implemented by the others but only on the plug & play versions.
    Still batch 5 planes are actually an hell of good air defence planes so he idea was to offer them to eastern Nato Members, problem is that they have Gripens or are planning to adopt them, so even if they would be offered for free the same maintenance cost of a plane like typhoon would made them not would made them not convenient in comparison.
    Just spare us the renegate Su-27 story please : actually i think more probable to see in future a renegate western pilot fleeing from Europistan to a still cristian country than the other way round.
    Last edited by Marcellogo; 18th September 2017 at 22:19.

  4. #4
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    I think you are underestimating the level of resentment of Austrians and their ability to have equal technical knowledge.
    Last edited by TomcatViP; 19th September 2017 at 08:28.

  5. #5
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    The level of sheer stupidity and political coniving of the Austrian Defense Ministry is stagering.

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    And the vibrant call to their "Constitutional rights" was not?
    Last edited by TomcatViP; 19th September 2017 at 16:45.

  7. #7
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    Purchasing the Typhoon was the wrong decision in the first place -- they should have gone with something cheaper, simpler...

    It would be like Loke buying a Porsche -- insane! It does not help that the Porsche is an amazing car, if Loke 1) does not need it and 2) cannot afford it.

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    There are some very cheap Porsches out there. Does that help you?

    There are after all Porsches and there are Porsches. Until the Austrian order, one could have said that Typhoon is a Typhoon.

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    The Typhoon is very capable but it is also very expensive to operate -- just look at the leaks from Switzerland, for instance, or the reports coming from Germany.

    Gripen C would have been the perfect fit for Austria. Hungary and Czhechia are both operating Gripen C at a shoestring budget, and with very high availability. They are even able to support QRA missions to the Baltics and Iceland, and at the same time maintain QRA in their home country!
    Last edited by Loke; 19th September 2017 at 13:52.

  10. #10
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    what will they replace them with? I'm guessing a French product. They should just find some good used stuff somewhere

  11. #11
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    A French product? No. Either a European (i.e. Tyhpoon) or a Swedish product. 1% chance for a US product (F-16).

    Just wait until after elections have been held on October 15th. And a new government has been formed. The next gov. does not have to follow current Def. Min. Doskozil's report.
    How can less be more? It's impossible. More is more.
    Yngwie Malmsteen

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    technically, they could always buy used Mirages 2000-9 from the UAE (excellent aircraft with low hours overall), but while it is technically a possible choice, it's more than highly unlikely... if they maintain the idea of ditching Typhoons, then, most probably they'll opt for a Gripen

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    I always thought that Typhoon was the wrong aircraft for Austria, and that Gripen C seemed a better fit.

    However, if one takes Gruber's statements at face value, and in particular his melodramatic statement that he wants to make sure that his "pilots are not sentenced to death, when in the future (they) may be meeting a defecting, renegade Su-27 and its pursuers...” then it follows that Austria needs a better capability than the very stripped down Tranche 1 Typhoon that they have. They need a proper DASS, they need proper radar and missile warning systems, they need a proper long range BVR missile capability.

    A Gripen C is not, with the best will in the world, going to provide sufficient overmatch to deal with a horde of Su-35s, whereas by upgrading the Tranche 1 Typhoons to the latest RAF standards, then a small degree of superiority would be assured. Add Meteor and the job's done.

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    Gripen has the advantage they can pool its maintenance with their neightbours (Czechs, Hungarians and with all the probability Croatians also) so not to spend what would take to replace the Typhoon logistic with an almost completely new one.

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    @ Jackonicko
    That of Flankers is just an absurd bestiality, no one around has such planes, so because a NEUTRAL nation like Austria would care about this possibility completely surrounded as it is by NATO countries (well, Switzerland and Lietchestein also but not a great menace)?
    They need it just for air policing something for which also a M-346 FA would be enough.
    Last edited by Marcellogo; 20th September 2017 at 09:21.

  16. #16
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    M-346 couldn't catch an airliner or business jet. Not enough speed advantage.
    Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
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    technically, they could always buy used Mirages 2000-9 from the UAE (excellent aircraft with low hours overall), but while it is technically a possible choice, it's more than highly unlikely... if they maintain the idea of ditching Typhoons, then, most probably they'll opt for a Gripen
    Yes most probably. Austrian socialist party (probably) has no links to UAE but strong links to Sweden. If they are in charge after October 15th and decide to retire EF, they'll buy Gripen.

    People have to understand: this is 100% politics. Socialists are still very mad about conservatives decision to buy EF. Money from EADS compensation deals didn't find its way to the right recipients, money from Saab will.
    Also, Tyhpoon in particular and armed forces in general are hated by a majority, so anti-EF rhetorics are excellent campaign tactics. After the elections, socialists can still blame Airbus/other parties/EU or whomever for "forcing" Austria to keep the Typhoons if they should secretly decide to keep them.
    How can less be more? It's impossible. More is more.
    Yngwie Malmsteen

  18. #18
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    A Gripen C is not, with the best will in the world, going to provide sufficient overmatch to deal with a horde of Su-35s, whereas by upgrading the Tranche 1 Typhoons to the latest RAF standards, then a small degree of superiority would be assured. Add Meteor and the job's done.
    What? Gripen C fully equipped is more than able to meet the official requirements. Hordes of Su-35s are not very likely to appear over Vienna anytime soon.
    The lone renegade Su-27 could be handled by pretty much anything.
    How can less be more? It's impossible. More is more.
    Yngwie Malmsteen

  19. #19
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    They need it just for air policing something for which also a M-346 FA would be enough.
    This again? For the n-th time, it has been well established that a subsonic aircraft is unable to perform the air policing role.
    Hell, in 2017, even the Austrian socialist party realised a supersonic fighter is required. The requirement is for a supersonic jet, all weather capable, with self defence equipment and BVR armament. Not a jet trainer, however advanced it may be.

    I'm waiting to read first reports in Swiss media asking why Textron's Scorpion at 20 Mio. a piece is not considered for the new fighter competition, or even better, why the Swiss made PC-21 is not a candidate. Happened before.
    How can less be more? It's impossible. More is more.
    Yngwie Malmsteen

  20. #20
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    Maybe they should look at T-50 Geagle.........

  21. #21
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    Lilium, no one ?

  22. #22
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    Maybe they should look at T-50 Geagle.........
    This has been covered before.
    A non starter because it doesn't meet the requirements (BVR) and South Korea is geographically and politically too far away.
    How can less be more? It's impossible. More is more.
    Yngwie Malmsteen

  23. #23
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    Ask Red Bull to sponsor the €Fighter operations, or have Red Bull take over the air policing role with their Alpha Jets.

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    A non starter because it doesn't meet the requirements (BVR)
    Perhaps they need to rescope their requirements. Why is BVR considered necessary for air policing? It is the antithesis of that function.

  25. #25
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    Perhaps you need to reconsider your order of priorities: a country puts up requirements it considers necessary and then, the manufacturers try to fulfill them. it's not up to a country to set up requirements to please a weaker manufacturer

  26. #26
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    LOL
    I knew it would happen. Overkill. Even if dumbed down, had much higher operation costs than needed for a small landlocked country.
    They should've chosen Gripen from the start

    but for some reason Tom Cooper (Deino's boss at ACIG) defended it as a wise choice for Austria.

  27. #27
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    Why ditch Typhoon? Well, apparently not because of bribery

    A parliamentary inquiry into Austria’s $2 billion Eurofighter deal found no indications of bribery or that Airbus (AIR.PA) and its partners illegally influenced Austrian politicians, according to the final report on the matter.
    Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
    Justinian

  28. #28
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    @Kenneth

    Lol well.. Its a socialist govt. They wont like the capitalist idea of selling ad space on their jets.

  29. #29
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    @ Y 20 bacon

    What is it that makes the EF so expensive to operate ?

    Burns lots of fuel ? Or are they the Bugatti of the jet world ? Blown tire $20,000. Set of brake pads $10,000

  30. #30
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    Not, it's just a twin engined 11000 kg plane instead of a 6 to 9 tons single engine like, let's say Gripen or F-16.

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