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Thread: Flying Mosquito B.IV DZ542 for UK

  1. #1
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    Flying Mosquito B.IV DZ542 for UK

    Hi all,
    I've just discovered the Mosquito Pathfinder Trust on Facebook, aiming to raise funds to restore and operate a B.IV in the United Kingdom:
    Welcome to The Mosquito Pathfinder Trust

    The Mosquito Pathfinder Trust was established with the sole mission of returning a fully airworthy de Havilland Mosquito to the skies over Britain. The Mosquito is a British designed and engineered marvel of aviation history, yet the British public does not have one to grace the skies of this great nation.

    All three airworthy de Havilland Mosquito’s in existence today are operated by private owners in the USA. Our charity has been set up with the full intent of changing that, and restoring a de Havilland Mosquito that the British public can call their own.

    To complete our mission, our charity needs to raise £4 million in 3 years. We do however have a very urgent need to raise £750,000 before the end of 2017 to commence the restoration work on our selected MK.IV aircraft.

    Our board of Trustees is supported by John de Havilland, direct descendant of Geoffrey de Havilland and by Philip Birtles, President of the de Havilland Aircraft Museum.

    You can find out more by visiting our website:
    https://www.thewoodenwonder.org.uk/
    Apologies if this has been posted elsewhere on the forum. Their website says the charity registration was in July this year.

    So now the owner of DZ542 is public! I'm very, very curious to see how this and TPM can coexist.
    "those who know keep quiet, and those who don't are frowned upon for asking." - snafu

  2. #2
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    Hi All,
    Can't help wondering why they would not join forces with TPM project pool their resources and money into getting one up then do the same again
    with a second ? Still all good news for us aviation enthusiasts here is their Facebbok page:- https://www.facebook.com/thewoodenwonder/

    Geoff.

  3. #3
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    I've looked at the website and it's not clear to me whether (a) the remains of DZ542 have been acquired and now are owned by the MPT or (b) there is a 'start' date for the 33-35 months scheduled work for its restoration to airworthiness by Avspecs. Can anyone help me with this information?

  4. #4
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    If this is genuine, then I wish them well. The only concern I would have, is how much the charity's CEO will be being paid.

    Bob T.

  5. #5
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    You would think, if they want to be taken seriously, they could get the location of the 3 currently airworthy Mossie's correct. I'm sure Bob Jens wouldn't be amused to find that his B.35 was now in the USA, no matter how close it actually is to the border. Of course, whether VR796 will ever fly again is open to question.

    Be nice to see DZ rebuilt/recreated into its highball spec.

    Can both projects succeed given they are competing for funds for the same thing though?

    Hopefully, as 2 x Mossie's in the UK would be bloody marvellous.
    I was with it all the way until letting the brakes off..........

  6. #6
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    Two Mosquito's from public appeals ! Sounds massively unlikely !

  7. #7
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    Hopefully, as 2 x Mossie's in the UK would be bloody marvellous
    But if and when these come to fruition, will there be any air shows in the UK at which they can earn a living?

  8. #8
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    Bob, let me just ask a simple question. If the Vulcan trust had not paid a CEO, would the aircraft ever have flown?

    Best of luck to the Pathfinder Trust, and to the Peoples Mosquito.

  9. #9
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    Honestly...do any owners really rely on airshow income when planning a purchase? If there is some it is really icing on the cake.

  10. #10
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    There's a difference between private owners and charity owners. The former tend to be wealthy men and women, who can afford to indulge themselves, bear operational costs personally and look at air show fees as little more than 'pin money'. The latter tend not to have that luxury and thus their aeroplanes may have to be better able to pay their ways rather than rely on supporters to provide a constant and significant income stream.

    I'm still hoping that someone will be able to tell me whether MPT is the owner of DZ542 and whether there is a start date for the restoration work. Does anyone know?

  11. #11
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    The available evidence suggests early in 2018 is hoped for. Whoever the current owner is, it seems likely there is some kind of conditional agreement in place, ownership isn't always simple!

  12. #12
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    Bruce, it's not the fact that the founder/CEO of VTTS got paid, as I believe that is a requirement for registering a charity etc, it's the amount he is paid. Surely if something is your dream/passion, then you would do it for as little remuneration as possible, not take a large sum of the raised funds, as your pay packet ?.
    It just seems to me, that some charities are set up by people whose main aim is to pay themselves a large wage.
    If VTTS's CEO had taken a token wage of say, not more than £25.000 a year, then it might have been more acceptable.
    My worry regarding this new Mosquito charity "& other such charities" is that the person who started it, will take a large wage out of the donations that people who want to see a Mosquito flying here in Britain have made. Not only that, but will continue to raise funds to keep it flying, and continue to use it as a means to pay himself a large wage.....

  13. #13
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    If I interpret it correctly, Bruce's comment is related to an understanding and acceptance of the fact that many charities are run as a large and significant business and need paid expertise to be successful. It wasn't always that way.

    In the dim and distant past, charities were run under the patronage of wealthy and well known people who, being financially independent could afford to indulge their charitable instincts in running the charity without being a liability on the charities purse. Specialised expertise was always donated.

    Those times have gone, in their stead, we have business people who expect some reward for their labour and because it is a charity, a large reward from what is seen to be - at least in the beginning - an unlimited cashcow.

    I emailed Help For Heroes last week and enquired as to how much of every pound donated is taken to pay for admin, wages and organisational costs. The answer was 25%. That, in my opinion is too much.

  14. #14
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    Oxfam is said to be a good example of an efficient modern charity. Their figures are: 82% charitable, 8% fundraising and 10% expenses and salaries etc. So their 18% overheads would be a good yardstick for assessing the performance of other charities. You could expect some variation by type of charity of course.

  15. #15
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    Depends how you look at it ,82% of a possible small amount into a larger amount may be worth the price of employing people who can increase that turn over.

  16. #16
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    This thread would be more interesting if it's dedicated to the actual build of DZ542.

  17. #17
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    Yes - and some so called charitable companies contribute very little indeed to their chosen sector. There was research done a few years ago relating to charitable concerts that were supposed to support a charity similar to Help for Heroes, and also relating to companies that organised raffles of cars with the intention that funds over and above the purchase price of the vehicle, less expenses would go to supporting a particular fund.

    The concerts often made a loss on paper, yet they still paid the organisers, and the cars were similar. They were clearly a scam.

    25% may be too much, if it can be demonstrated that it can be done for less. As yet, we don't know the structure of the new Mosquito charity, and must be careful not to make assumptions. I don't know what proportion of fundraising for the Vulcan (for example) went on Fundraising/related salary, compared to the spend on the aircraft (which would also include related salary of course). As far as I am aware, those running the 'Peoples Mosquito' do not draw any salary from the funds they are raising.

  18. #18
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    Cees - hopefully it can be as and when work starts.

    I would note that DZ542 is a BIV - so there is a chance to restore an early Bomber aircraft, which would be very good indeed - the only other existing airframe in such a configuration is in Canada. Even W4050 has sprouted two stage engines of late!

  19. #19
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    Our museum has a 7 meter wingsection of DZ497.

  20. #20
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    In theory they can be 'restored' as any mark as the airframe is a new build anyway!

  21. #21
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    "...do not draw any salary from the funds they are raising."

    Exactly as it should be. In other words, a 'labour of love'.

  22. #22
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    This is an interesting debate. In contrast with the restoration of Avro Lancaster NX611; the Lincs Aviation Heritage Centre is not a charity but every donated penny is spent on NX611 as the operating of the Centre covers the other costs allowing 100% of donations to be attributed to the restoration. Yet we as general public feel much more confident in donating to a charity.

  23. #23
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    Despite certain charities having abused the confidence (trust?) that the general public have placed in them.

  24. #24
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    Bruce - I've been working on a round-up of potential flyers and DZ452's the only B.IV I've been able to come up with. It would be cool to see one fly so I was very pleased to finally learn the plans for it.
    "those who know keep quiet, and those who don't are frowned upon for asking." - snafu

  25. #25
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    For those upset about people being paid, this from an MPT (confusing how similar the acronyms are) Facebook post 13hr ago:

    In regards to your enquiry about remuneration, we can confirm that The Board of Trustees, The Principal Officer and all other members of The Mosquito Pathfinder Trust are volunteers. No one is taking a salary from the charity, as for us, this is a labour of love more than anything else. We really want to see a Mosquito flying in the UK again soon and we are happy to give our own time and resource to making that happen.
    And, from the red corner, the first jab: http://www.peoplesmosquito.org.uk/20...zero-sum-game/
    "those who know keep quiet, and those who don't are frowned upon for asking." - snafu

  26. #26
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    Not a jab, I would say, for confrontation or even competition will help neither party.

    The concern is a valid one, as the 'fund' of public goodwill/contributions is finite, and might result in 2 underfunded and stalled projects instead of one complete one.

    My instinct is that when a Mosquito flies in the UK ( and it surely will, as a warbird superstar ) it will be a privately owned example. In the classic car world £6 million is not a startling sum, perhaps a McLaren F1, and for such a figure you would turn every head on the airshow scene, and if you relish attention, a flying Mosquito will certainly deliver.

  27. #27
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    And what's the opinion of the CAA about a new built flying Mosquito in the UK?

  28. #28
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    Have they still got the moulds in NZ after the new builds? Why recreate the wheel?
    "If the C.O. ask's you to be Tail End Charlie...just shoot him!!!....A Piece of Cake.
    http://spitfirea58-27.blogspot.com.au/

  29. #29
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    And what's the opinion of the CAA about a new built flying Mosquito in the UK?
    TPM have been saying for some time that the CAA (UK, not the NZ one) have signed off on their plan.
    http://www.peoplesmosquito.org.uk/the-plan/

    Presumably MPT have a similar plan.

  30. #30
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    All flying Mosquito projects should be done in NZ. Its a no-brainer. There is an established Mosquito industry there with very experienced companies and individuals involved.

    I know very well the amount of experience and learning that has happened there in the past 20 years. As QldSpitty says, why re-invent the wheel.

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