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Thread: "Classified" aircraft down, Nevada USA

  1. #1
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    "Classified" aircraft down, Nevada USA

    As well as the two A-10 crashes, a "classified" aircraft went down last week within the testing ranges in Nevada. Sadly the pilot was lost. Salute to Lt Col Schutlz and family.

    http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone...d-in-same-area

    The vague press releases are quite similar to the early press releases of two losses of the F-117 and the MiG-23 crash of General Bond. Later releases clarified it was NOT a F-35.

    So: MiG, Su-27, F-117 from flyable storage, or other foreign, demonstrator or black program....

  2. #2
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    http://www.popularmechanics.com/mili...eign-aircraft/

    Russian or stealth? When will the truth emerge?!
    http://www.flightmemory.com/ I have been round the world 11.83 times!

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    So most likely a Su-30MKI or MK2V?

    RIP Col Shultz. His qualifications were most impressive.

    Link has more about the man. PhD in aeronautics from Caltech.


    https://theaviationist.com/2017/09/0...some-theories/
    Last edited by Multirole; 13th September 2017 at 07:58.

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    So most likely a Su-30MKI or MK2V?

    RIP Col Shultz. His qualifications were most impressive.

    Link has more about the man. PhD in aeronautics from Caltech.

    https://theaviationist.com/2017/09/0...some-theories/
    So how does some de-militarized Legacy Ukrainian Su-27UB become a 2005 version MKI...?
    Thanks

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    How would the US get their hands on an MKI?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by haavarla View Post
    So how does some de-militarized Legacy Ukrainian Su-27UB become a 2005 version MKI...?
    How do the Su-27P's that have been spotted over Groom become de-militarized Su-27UB's in your mind?

  7. #7
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    How do the Su-27P's that have been spotted over Groom become de-militarized Su-27UB's in your mind
    ?

    Oh but those Ukraine Su-27UB are in NEVADA no doubt.
    And where does the "spottet" Su-27P come from.. Russia?

    Did any African Country buy the Su-27P back in the days? Dunno, small chance Ukraine sold a Su-27P to US.

    And eighter way, it cannot ever never become a MKI.
    Thanks

  8. #8
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    The UB purchased from Ukraine were bought by a contractor providing OPFOR training. Su-27P's were acquired from Belarus. Whether the Su-27P that have been spotted flying on many occasions from Groom are those former Belorussian Su-27 is debatable.

    For one, the fact that the USAF refused to release the exact type of "classified" aircraft suggests that if it was an Su-27 or such, they probably don't want to reveal how they acquired it.

    The full extent of the smuggling operations of Soviet weapons from former republics by both the CIA and third party weapons dealers will never fully come to light. Nor is it likely that these operations have stopped considering that Russia still sells arms to cash poor states that may not be able to maintain or operate complex weapon systems long term. The pipeline of weapons from these states likely means that some Russian weapons still find their way into the US.

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    I wonder how long before a Turkish S-400 finds it's way into the US?
    "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

  10. #10
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    If ever, in a very long time period.. like when the S-400 is replaced with something better.
    Eredogan is up US @ss these days. Its not like he will share
    Thanks

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpudmanWP View Post
    I wonder how long before a Turkish S-400 finds it's way into the US?
    for all Russia cares, it can happen as soon as the S-400 reaches Turkey. They will complain but 100% guaranteed it won't be using same components as Russian S-400. Probably same that China got and India is getting.

    The jet in question will definitely be something along the lines of an Su-27UB if it was one as I heard of them flying before in US, as they were Ukrainian stock. There isn't any Su-30MKI or MK2 in US as none of the countries with it would be willingly giving the US such an aircraft.

  12. #12
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    definitely be something along the lines of an Su-27UB if it was one as I heard of them flying before in US, as they were Ukrainian stock
    -no, first off the Su-27UB purchased from Ukraine were bought by a private contractor firm, Tac Air, they were not operated by the 53rd TEG.

    Whether you want to believe it or not, single seat Su-27's were acquired by the U.S. nor were they "demilitarized" to be used for OPFOR training like the Ukrainian aircraft.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBW View Post
    -no, first off the Su-27UB purchased from Ukraine were bought by a private contractor firm, Tac Air, they were not operated by the 53rd TEG.

    Whether you want to believe it or not, single seat Su-27's were acquired by the U.S. nor were they "demilitarized" to be used for OPFOR training like the Ukrainian aircraft.
    that's fine then. Could possibly be that too.

  14. #14
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    Su-27 single seaters in the US:
    S/n (369110)-
    • -27918, built 1989, ended up in the Belarusian AF after 1992. Subsequently sold by Belarus to the US in November 1995, shipped over in boxes via the UK.
    • -27717, also built 1989, ended up in Belarus after 1992, was still in service with them by 1995. In 2001 it showed up in Ukraine. Subsequently sold by Ukraine to the US shortly afterwards, also shipped over in boxes.


    Then there are two -UB's that were demilled, as noted already, and hardly comparable to any 30MKx or whatever. But it's not like these '89ers are much relevant today either, save for purely aerodynamic evaluations in dogfighting perhaps (which, incidentally, seems to be what they've been doing at A51). They're miles behind -27Mx and -35S in every other respect.

    Apart from these, you also have export models of MiG-29s and what not that's been flying out of Groom Lake, originally from Moldova among other places. Plus a heap of export MiG-21s, -23s etc, that were even more widespread during the Cold War and much more easily obtained.
    Last edited by Dr.Snufflebug; 13th September 2017 at 19:05.

  15. #15
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    Some are saying that the US bought the recently for sale su 27 that was floating around in the classifieds last year. This is it.


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    http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone...h-near-area-51

    Rumors continue to swirl around the mysterious death of Lt. Col. Eric "Doc" Schultz near Area 51 on September 5th. Various theories exist, including one that says he was the commander of the elite and shadowy "Red Hats" squadron that secretly flies foreign tactical aircraft for test and training purposes. Make sure to read about all about theories here. Now a report has emerged from the Russian website Radio Moscow claiming that a famous Russian test pilot was not only in contact with Schultz shortly before the crash, but that he warned him of executing certain maneuvers while flying Russian hardware.

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    Any reason why it couldn't be a classified prototype or proof of concept and not Russian?

    The F-117 proved that secrets could still be kept (as recently as the 80s at least).

    You have to give the USAF credit for being open in admitting it was a classified type and not issuing a story saying it was a T-38.
    There are two sides to every story. The truth is usually somewhere between the two.

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    People have cited the time of day when the accident happened as a clue against that theory: the crash occurred quite comfortably before sunset, i.e. in broad daylight. A crucial part of the successful cover strategy for the F-117 however was a strict rule of exclusive night flying, to reduce the chance of incidental outside observers identifying it as something new.

    So, the argument goes, although the mishap airframe was of an officially classified type, it probably was not considered as deeply secret that it could not be allowed to fly in daylight. You'd expect precisely that to be the case for a genuinely new prototype/demonstrator though - the Groom Lake Flankers on the other hand have been routinely seen in daytime.

    Aviationweek also reported that the rumour mill indicates a foreign type.

  19. #19
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    "You'll die, you can not do what I do"

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/2851790.html


    President of the MAKS airshow about a US pilot who crashed in a Russian fighter pilot: I warned him

    Magomed Tolboyev, test pilot, Hero of the Russian Federation, Honorary President of the MAKS airshow, said "Says Moscow" that he had been in contact with Lieutenant Colonel Eric Schulz a month ago. Lieutenant Colonel of the US Air Force Eric "Doc" Schulz, who died in a plane crash near the Nellis airbase 05/09/2017 (c) US Air Force

    "I talked with him, I told him a month ago: do not do what we do. I showed him dead loops, but said: do not do this. It's only our plane, dear, we know what to do with it. First you need to know what you're on. The Cossack is only a Cossack on his horse. I just warned them: you can not do this. The difference is 1 degree, exactly one degree. He was a good guy, he flew well, his fate is as follows. He was experienced, no questions asked. We must pay tribute: American pilots and English - great pilots, we appreciate them and never badly do not speak of them as professionals. But there are some subtleties very deep, only we, the test pilots know them. I told him: "you'll perish, you can not do what I do." This is the line. "



    According to Tolboyev, in the United States since 1967 there is a squadron equipped with Soviet technology, on which pilots work out individual elements of aerobatics. On the eve of the exercises in Nevada, a Russian-made fighter crashed, according to some versions - SU-27 or SU-30. The crash of the military aircraft took place at the secret airbase of the US Air Force "Zone 51". At the helm was Lt. Col. Eric Schulz, he died. Given the information I found 4 years ago after checking numerous interviews with Tolboyev https://twower.livejournal.com/1142 957.html http://twower.livejournal.com/1143288.h tml https://twower.livejournal.com / 1143 301.html https://twower.livejournal.com/1143 762.html


    http://twower.livejournal.com/1146093.h tml
    with high probability it can be assumed that the late lieutenant-colonel would be very surprised by the "fact" of any discussion of the specifics of performing dead loops with the honorary president of MAKS.
    "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

  20. #20
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    What's so secret about a US pilot flying some Su27/30s? Everyone knows the US have them. So I'm not buying this theory.

  21. #21
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    Classification is a largely bureaucratic status, whether it is factually still a secret or not - bureaucracy does not necessarily care about logic

    Plenty of people know, but as it is nominally considered classified, an incident triggers the prescribed response regardless.

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    I read somewhere that the pilot had an unsuccessful ejection. It might then involves an old Russian/Chinese model. Given that the emphasis is on NK and that two A-10 went down the day after, it might well be an accident part of a NK scenario involving on of the oldest red-air asset the red-hat had in their inventory (hence the failed escape attempt).

    Only wild assumption obviously.

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    Not sure what you are trying to say. But i'm 100% sure that the US pilot did not decided to test out the K-36 ejection system on a whimp.. obviously something went very wrong in the first place. If the Red Hatter have a mixed fleet of Migs and Sukhois at Nevada, then it would be wise to hire some Ukrainians contractors to maintain the units.
    What you fly, you must maintain..
    Thanks

  24. #24
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    Tomcat, your north korea scenario of doing some dissimilar air to air against some old soviet/russian hardware is not a bad theory at all. Google earth images still show MiG-17, 21, An2, Il-28 and other types on the ramp at North Korean air bases. I also recall the glorious leader doing a photo op with some female pilots in front of their twin seat MiG 15 rather recently. Few western crews would have any experience against these types. There was also a similar gap in Vietnam when few crews had experience against simple jets, and F-86's were used to mimic MiG 17's before the US obtained the Have Drill/Have Ferry MiG-17's. So while many of us think something newer went down, the "obsolete" theory is not too far fetched. I recal from the Steve Davies books that the Red Hats and Red Eagles did not enjoy the prospects of having to rely on the soviet ejection systems.

  25. #25
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    Soviet ejection systems like the excellent K-36?
    http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/9098/rsz11rsz3807.jpg

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    he's speaking about ejection seats of older types that flew when the K-36 class seats were science fiction, methinks

  27. #27
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    Absolutly Toocool. SanDiego89 said it all also.

  28. #28
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    Correct TooCool and Tomcat, I was referring to the seats in the MiG-17, 21 and 23. The US was operating these aircraft without the benefits of full manuals, practical experience, no records how the particular airframes and components had been maintained, nor a full understanding of how everything worked. Quite remarkable.

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