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Thread: Su-57/T-50/PAK-FA/FGFA News/Discussion 08/2017

  1. #811
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    Or, we have the same turning torque becouse the new engine has more thrust.

  2. #812
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    Becouse the new engine has more thrust, the moment arm should be shorter to get the same rotational torque as on previous engine. Maybe it is so simple?

  3. #813
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    https://forum.keypublishing.com/show...43#post2421743

    Do we see some gaps where nozzle meat engine cowl? Maybe for IR reduction?

  4. #814
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    Nowhere near a meter: the airframe-end of the nozzle on an AL-31F is about 1.2m in diameter and these engines are probably in the same ball park, it does looks like Izd.30 may be a bit shorter, but nothing like 1m. The engine as a whole, i.e. including the part inside the airframe, probably is somewhat more compact due to the significantly reduced stage count - but even there the new blading probably has wider chord, so the difference may not be as dramatic as the stage numbers suggest. Compare the RB.199 and EJ200 (though much if not all of the additional length on the EJ200 is due to the con/di nozzle - the AL-31F family already has that).

    http://www.airliners.net/photo/Russi...T-50/2326958/L
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  5. #815
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    Cool, so now we have the new engine under test. So they flew the new engine on Su-57-02. I thought there was talk about the new engine flying on the next new prototype. Either way. Might still mean that we see the next new prototype flying this month or January. As 3 new versions were aimed for this year. If so it will be a big year for the program.

  6. #816
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    Great! Now maybe they can test its weapons bay in flight and maybe someday test launch a missile from those weapons bay.

  7. #817
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    What in Jesus' name is Su-57-02?

    There is no such thing as Su-57 yet, and there certainly is no such thing as Su-57-02.

  8. #818
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    @Arihant


    I know those guys at Saturn and Sukhoi know what they are doing and they must have some ways to mitigate this.
    There's a reason why the su 57 has not gone balls to the wall at the shows. This is probably it.

  9. #819
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    FBW, here's what I'm getting my Mother for Christmas
    Click image for larger version. 

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  10. #820
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    Looks good, def very similar to the LOAN nozzle tested on F-16. Want clear pics on integration with airframe. If you look where the actuation for TVC is on the -117 it is clear the izdeliye 30 is shorter (at least nozzle section).

  11. #821
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    or perhaps it's only the nozzle that being tested. Flateric in secretprojects said the nozzle has nothing to do with Izd-30

  12. #822
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    Def possible, impossible to tell from screengrabs, flateric usually right.

  13. #823
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    Would be cool actually, as that might mean Salyut's PYBBN could still be on for the definitive engine

  14. #824
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    Perhaps its only nozzles testing in the T-50-2.
    But the Idz-30 will have fewer stages. That much is clear.
    So it will be shorter vs AL-31 engine linage. It should also have a slightly larger diameter.
    Thanks

  15. #825
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    Unconfirmed reports indicate today (5th December), T-50-2 took off with an 'Item-30' (Изделие 30) engine installed for the latter's first test flight.
    It's 2027 already??? Gee that was quick

  16. #826
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    So it will be shorter vs AL-31 engine linage. It should also have a slightly larger diameter.
    The Diameter is the same as we know from past interview I have posted here that its diameter is the same as 117 but it will have 2 less stages , IIRC 5 stage for new engine compared to 7 for 117
    "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

  17. #827
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    Perhaps its only nozzles testing in the T-50-2.
    No its not. The entire Item-30 engine is being tested on Bort 052. The UAC press release explicitly mentions that this was the first flight of PAK-FA with second stage engine. Had it been only nozzle testing, they wouldn't have come up with a press release.

    UAC and NPO Saturn hadn't released a single pic of Izdeliye - 30 engine on a test stand or being tested before this.
    They could have waited for a few more months before releasing any pictures when they had waited for over a year since the last tidbit of info in Nov of last year regarding the firing up of the engine in its full config for the first time.
    So, this is indeed the Item-30 engine that is being tested out and not just the nozzle.

    The Diameter is the same as we know from past interview I have posted here that its diameter is the same as 117 but it will have 2 less stages , IIRC 5 stage for new engine compared to 7 for 117
    I knew Item-117 had 4 lpc and 9 hpc just like the AL-31 series. Austin, do you have any articles or links on Item-117 which mentions that the engine has 7 HPC stages.

  18. #828
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    interestingly, they went back to using the black anti glare coating around the cockpit, as with their past fighters.
    looks much better imho.

  19. #829
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    A poster simply stated that the Su-57 flying with the Izd.30 appeared to be fitted with "the recently seen serrated nozzle".

    Flaterics exact reply:
    "Recently seen serrated nozzle has nothing to do with Izd.30".

    He isn't saying this isn't the Izd.30. He is simply saying that ONE of the TWO recently seen nozzles has nothing to do with the Izd.30.
    Whether that was from the beginning, or simply later once a design was chosen, or testing, or something else..isn't elaborated.
    It's a cryptic reply which is partially lost in translation.

    UAC stated that the Izd.30 would fly at the end of of 2017, and here we are.

  20. #830
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    The LO nozzle seen @ MMPP Salyut may well be a Chinese contractual commission, with whom they have a long-standing and close working relationship.

    The Chinese have shown considerable interest in their 5G turbofan components developed for the AL-31F-M3 (including a BLISKed 3- stage LP comp.). I wager Salyut have - at the very least, been employed as consultants for the J-20's definitive engine.

    I don't see Salyut going thru the time and considerable expense for the LO nozzle's development just for the sheer hell of it.

    Official UAC footage of the Izd.30's first flight @ 720p50:

    https://youtu.be/371VTv_jQE0
    Last edited by Jō Asakura; 6th December 2017 at 12:42.

  21. #831
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    My 2c is that it looks like a new engine.

    During blast off, the right engine (old) produced significanlty more smoke than the port engine. On take off the trend continued, with the starboard engine being -well not entirely smokeless- while the port engine was almost completely smoke free.

  22. #832
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    Is there any information on the thrust of the izd.30? I see people throwing 18 tons a lot but so far the only thing I read from officials is 17-18% more "effective" than 117. There's also saying of 5% better specific thrust and 25% better "specific gravity", but it doesn't say if it's compared to 117 or AL-31.

  23. #833
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    The constant figure is 18 T but recent news suggest it may be in 19-20T thrust , Since this is a clean design it will have upgrade potential of 20-25 % on thrust side

    The Id 30 engine can be made into a Variable Cycle One as its designer had suggested in an interview

    Today, the "Saturn" conducted extensive research on the development of fifth-generation engine with the use of a technology called "variable cycle engine." The studies, which suggest that a certain transformation engine thermodynamics through design changes can significantly improve engine performance at subsonic and supersonic flight conditions. One of these transformations can be the use of the third circuit. All this is provided.
    April 2013 interview

    Interview on PAK-FA 2nd stage engine

    Interview:General designer "Saturn" Yuri Shmotin

    "The engine of the second stage of the fifth generation aircraft will give new life"

    One of the biggest challenges currently facing the Russian aircraft engine is a development of the second stage engine for the aircraft PAK FA (T-50). Most of the work on the creation of this engine performs Rybinsk "Saturn."

    About that, at what stage is the creation of the engine, which features the new aircraft will become the "heart" told "Interfax-AVN" chief designer "Saturn" Yuri SHMOTIN.

    - Yuri, tell us what should be the engine for the fifth generation fighter aircraft? What are its main features?

    - The plane of the fifth generation T-50 is not just a fighter, bomber or attack aircraft. This multi-purpose aircraft. Such aircraft should be given a new "heart", which would make it highly maneuverable, fast, cost-effective and able to withstand such competitors as American F-22 and F-35.

    Engine for the fifth generation fighter aircraft will be different from the previous generation increased specific thrust, lower weight, reduced specific fuel consumption and the presence of new solutions for low visibility. In this case, it should be relatively cheap to operate and maintain. "Saturn" is currently working on such an engine.

    - What units and aggregates of the new engine is given special attention in the development? What is the greatest challenge for the engineers?

    - In aircraft engines, everything is important. One of the most complicated engine components is a high-pressure turbine. We were asked to make a turbine operating at this level of temperature at which the metal nickel alloys just melted. This work was successful.

    The heart of an aircraft engine is a high-pressure compressor. Of its level of excellence is directly dependent all basic characteristics of the engine. The amount of detail in the new high-pressure compressor, we have managed to reduce by almost half compared with the previous stage of the compressor, while providing a significant performance increase by one level. The cost of making such a compressor will not exceed the cost of making HPC engine fourth generation. This is subject to the application of new materials and technologies.

    Solving these and other problems, we will get to a gas generator with a new level of performance, which will be the basis for a new family of engines. Characteristics of the gas generator units, such as the effectiveness of the ARC, increased on average by more than four percent, and on a number of modes and eight. In fact, it is a revolution in engine, because determines the possibility of the engine with a huge reserve of development for traction.

    - What structural materials preferred for a new engine?

    - No of new materials is impossible to provide the characteristics that we make to the new generation of CCD. The specialists of "Saturn" is a good experience and the impact of new materials developed by the All-Russian Scientific Research Institute of Aviation Materials (VIAM).

    First of all, it is, of course, high-temperature nickel alloys spade. Turbine blade - it is a unique product. It is a complex spatial structure, which must operate at temperatures above 2000 K.

    There are also proprietary materials "Saturn." We can offer them for a new generation engine. These materials make it possible to increase the half life of the engine at the same temperatures.

    Today much is said about the use of composite materials. The new engine for the PAK FA used composites that are based not only on the polymer matrix to the cold part, and parts by the high-temperature compositions. These works "Saturn" is already long enough.

    - Do not forget that all new and modern with the time expires. Is there a possibility of the engine created for modernization?

    - Of course. Concurrently with the development work on the engine of the fifth generation we build backlog, which will develop the engine is not only ten, but at 30, maybe 50 years.

    Today, the "Saturn" conducted extensive research on the development of fifth-generation engine with the use of a technology called "variable cycle engine." The studies, which suggest that a certain transformation engine thermodynamics through design changes can significantly improve engine performance at subsonic and supersonic flight conditions. One of these transformations can be the use of the third circuit. All this is provided.

    - How will affect the installation of new engines for flight characteristics of fifth generation fighter? Feel a difference pilot peresevshy the plane with the engine of the first stage on the plane with the engine of the second stage?

    - The new engine is fundamentally different from the previous product of the first stage. Of course, the pilot will immediately feel the difference in traction. The plane with the new engine will be more docile and can quickly react to the pilot. In fact, the engine of the second stage is to give the T-50 aircraft to a new life.

    - Yuri, we know that the PAK FA is already being tested. What engines are equipped with the first prototypes?

    Now prototype completed the first phase of the motor, which in engineering circles is known as the product 117. In essence, this is the result of a deep family AL-31, which is installed on the aircraft today the Su-27.

    Certainly, it's a great engine, which is a best seller and is built on the fundamental principles and basic ideas of the design office Arkhip Cradles. But this is still the engine stage 4 + +.
    "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

  24. #834
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    VKS Russia can get three fighters of the fifth generation of the Su-57 in 2018

    https://vpk-news.ru/news/40307

    The aircraft will be armed with cruise missiles, air-to-air missiles, a 30-mm cannon. The Air and Space Forces (VCS) of Russia in 2018 will receive several fighters of the fifth generation of the Su-57 from the first installation batch. This was reported to Interfax on Thursday by the head of the Defense and Security Committee of the Federation Council.

    "The perspective aviation complex of front-line aviation (PAK FA) or Su-57, a modernized version of the T-50, is planned to be adopted in the next year," - said V. Bondarev, until recently - the commander-in-chief of the Russian Air Force. According to him, the first installation lot will be 12 fighters.

    "In the beginning, next year, VKS will receive only 2-3 units. This is ultramodern, and therefore, quite expensive aircraft, their mass production can not be adjusted in a short time. But over time, of course, we will put on stream the release of these, as they are called in everyday life, airplanes, invisible, "- said V. Bondarev. According to him, the Su-57 will be equipped with cruise missiles, air-to-air missiles, conventional weapons, high-precision weapons, which is almost invisible for radar detection, with a 30-mm air cannon. "These are the most effective means of non-nuclear deterrence. We pin great hopes on the PAK FA as the flagship of the domestic fleet of fighters in the future, "Bondarev said. On Tuesday, made the first flight of the Su-57 with a new engine.


    Until recently, 9 flight models of the T-50 with the "first stage" engine participated in the flight tests. "December 5, 2017 in the LII them. M.M. Gromov made the first flight of the newest Russian fighter of the fifth generation T-50 with the engine of the second stage. The flight duration was 17 minutes. The flight was completed in accordance with the conditions of the flight assignment, "the press service of the Ministry of Industry and Trade of the Russian Federation said.

    PAK FA is a Russian multi-role fighter of the fifth generation, developed by Sukhoi Design Bureau. It is equipped with a fundamentally new complex of deeply integrated avionics, which has a high level of control automation and intelligent crew support. The first flight of PAK FA took place on January 29, 2010 in Komsomolsk-on-Amur. The Ministry of Defense of Russia plans to sign a contract for the purchase of the installation lot of the fifth generation of Su-57 fighters in 2018 with the delivery of cars in 2019, said Deputy Defense Minister Yury Borisov.

    Earlier, the head of the corporation Tactical Missile Armament Boris Obnosov said that for the T-50 create new missiles. "T-50 will receive by 601 fundamentally new missiles by 2020, by 2020 - six more. Four samples of the missiles of the interfacial placement have already been created and are being tested, "B.Obnosov said.
    "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

  25. #835
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    19-20 tons? Where does it say that? Variable cycle? It doesn't even reference the izd.30 anywhere other than a generic "5th generation" label which can mean anything. This is really coming across like wishful thinking.

    Maybe Berkut and Scar have better idea?

  26. #836
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    He talked about the second stage engine for Su-57 and the means to further upgrade the engine.

    Or is further study and development only possible for PW or GE..?
    Take a peek into the F-35 thread and read about the F135 imminent thrust upgrade
    Last edited by haavarla; 7th December 2017 at 09:59.
    Thanks

  27. #837
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    @Jo Asakura

    A long time back in a previous Pakfa thread you had posted articles on Item-30 components - compressors, turbines, the application of exotic materials in this engine, etc.

    Can you reproduce some of those articles now in this thread?

    From the 2013 interview it is clear that this engine use a substantial amount of composites in the cold section.
    So LPC blades are made from composites, perhaps PMC.

    The HPC may be using Titanium aluminide alloys.

    First of all, it is, of course, high-temperature nickel alloys spade. Turbine blade - it is a unique product. It is a complex spatial structure, which must operate at temperatures above 2000 K.
    With what are the HPT and LPT made from? Some Rhenium nickel based super alloys? But here it is said that the turbine inlet temp is too high for nickel based alloys.


    Today much is said about the use of composite materials. The new engine for the PAK FA used composites that are based not only on the polymer matrix to the cold part, and parts by the high-temperature compositions. These works "Saturn" is already long enough.
    So they are also using composites in the hot section?
    GE has been using ceramic matrix composites in the annular combustors and in the vanes for quite some time. Leap x and GE9X series use them. But I don't know whether they use it in any moving parts like LPC.

    If NPO Saturn is indeed using cmc in the hot section, then it would be a world first as far as low bypass high-performance turbofan for a fighter jet is concerned.


    What are the lo features of this engine besides obviously the nozzle? The IGV of course will function as a radar blocker.

    Jo Asakura, Scar, TR1, Berkut,Paralay, FBW, Trident . If any of you guys have any articles or information regarding these, pls do post.

  28. #838
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    @Haavarla

    Take a peek into the F-35 thread and read about the F135 imminent thrust upgrade
    Can you kindly tell the post no. There aren't anything about F135 upgrade in the last three pages of the F-35 thread.

  29. #839
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    ...

    He was my North, my South, my East and West,
    My working week and my Sunday rest,
    My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
    I thought that love would last forever; I was wrong.

    The stars are not wanted now; put out every one:
    Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun;
    Pour away the ocean and sweep up the woods:
    For nothing now can ever come to any good.
    -------------------------------------------------
    W.H.Auden (1945)

  30. #840
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    you can see the civilian side of engine technology. the same composite material approach to heli and jet fighter engine.
    https://news.cgtn.com/news/34417a4d3...4/share_p.html
    UEC representative Fedor Mironov shared that PD-35 advantages over it’s western counterparts will be not just empty words:
    “The PD-35 engine will have characteristics that can be competitive not just with existing British or American analogues, but also with future projects that will be created after the year 2020. That’s why we are implementing in this PD-35 engine such technologies like composite fan blades, a high-effectiveness compressor, a low-emission combustion chamber, a high-temperature turbine, and other polymer-based parts.”

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