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Thread: Su-57/T-50/PAK-FA/FGFA News/Discussion 08/2017

  1. #841
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    a better link to the better video

  2. #842
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haavarla
    He talked about the second stage engine for Su-57 and the means to further upgrade the engine.

    Or is further study and development only possible for PW or GE..?
    Take a peek into the F-35 thread and read about the F135 imminent thrust upgrade
    Other than some generic lines about 5th generation engines possibly being variable cycle there is nothing firm on izd.30 being an actual VC engine. This is like me looking at some potential P&W upgrade map and then say the F-35 will have adaptive 3 stream engine, which won't be happening in near future. Nowhere do I see 19-20 ton thrust VC izd.30.

  3. #843
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    F135 will not have a 3rd stream in the current dimensions, Advent was wider. One upgrade path for F135 did include thrust and fuel burn improvements but without VCE tech. There haven’t been any firm decisions. The type 30 would have to grow in diameter as well to include a third stream. The YF120 engine grew considerably in diameter going from the XF120 to include variable cycle and the original AL-41 had a larger diameter than the current AL-41F1.

    It’s not just fan diameter, the third steam air duct and shroud will increase diameter around the core. Rad disconnect has a point. It may be in the works, as in the USAF AETD program, but don’t think the current type 30 is VCE and fitting a third stream may be a “study in the works” as in the F135.
    Last edited by FBW; 8th December 2017 at 04:48.

  4. #844
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    P&W's plan for the F135 includes a 3-stream version (June 2015):

    The company sees its F135 development pathway as essentially a two-step program, which would result by the mid- to late-2020s in an entirely new engine employing a third airstream, which would allow both an adaptive-cycle compressor and an adaptive-cycle turbine and also would allow weapons-system cooling technologies.
    https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-n...opment-pathway

    GE said the same thing ():

    P&W is developing the XA101 adaptive turbofan engine. GE Aviation is working on the XA102 engine. Both designs are being prepared to possibly replace the F135 and power future combat aircraft.
    https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...ance-p-437803/
    "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

  5. #845
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    I have not said anything about thrust figure on Idz 30.
    And 18-19t sound excesive to me.
    I think around 16.5t is more realistic.
    Its not wet thrust, but dry thrust that is important here.

    And if we look at upgrade. See no further than
    the AL-31F > AL-31FM1 > 117S > 117 roadmap.

    Surly the new engine will have Some room for improvments.
    Thanks

  6. #846
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    P&W's plan for the F135 includes a 3-stream version (June 2015):
    All these reports about 3 stream engines in F-35 have words "possibly" and "potential". They're studies and not something that will definitely make it to the F-35 and definitely not in near future. F135 will see some small thrust increases in near future but something like 3 stream engine will take much more work. It's the same reason why VC for izd.30 is also unlikely in near future.
    Last edited by RadDisconnect; 8th December 2017 at 14:07.

  7. #847
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    What FBW said was

    F135 will not have a 3rd stream in the current dimensions, Advent was wider.
    The reason I showed the info from P&W and GE was to demonstrate that a 3-Stream engine can indeed fit into the F135 bay.

    There was an article talking with GE and they were very emphatic that they will offer a 3-Stream F135 replacement engine in the 2020s. I'll have to do more Google-Fu to find it.
    "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

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    @JSR, you are funny when you tells Su-57 eill be improved frmo to be a 6 generation fighter. Firstly Su-57 needs to be a 5º generation fighter, and its very much concerns about its stealthy and about its fusion sensors.... And it its 2 of the most important parameters for to tell a aircraft is a 5º generation or not. In this moment Su-57 does not seem a 5º generation aircraft, or not like in occident is called 5º generation aircraft.

    And Rafale is not obsolote fighter, i think you need read more and dont tell stupid things. For example, Rafale has aesa radar, but not the Su-35 russian aircraft. Is the most important aircraft in russia in this moment obsolet too???

  9. #849
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpudmanWP View Post
    What FBW said was



    The reason I showed the info from P&W and GE was to demonstrate that a 3-Stream engine can indeed fit into the F135 bay.

    There was an article talking with GE and they were very emphatic that they will offer a 3-Stream F135 replacement engine in the 2020s. I'll have to do more Google-Fu to find it.
    They’ve stated it is too wide as is. Does not mean that they can’t make changes:
    http://aviationweek.com/defense/ge-d...er-engine-plan

    Will have to change bay-
    https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...ade-fo-427146/

    3 path development for F135
    https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-n...opment-pathway

    I’ll have to find the article, but they also stated current TD engines were longer and they would have to redesign nozzle. (Edit found it- http://www.airforcemag.com/DRArchive...-the-F-35.aspx )

    My impression is that this is all up in the air, there are several upgrade paths they are studying based on what the requirements are: 1. Make mods to engine and bay to fit full VCE 3rd stream, 2. use adaptive fan (similar to YF120) some parts of VCE tech like increased use of CMC and new heat exchangers , 3. Improve thrust and fuel burn of current F135

    Sorry, Su-57 thread but the VCE technology does fit with current talk about type 30 engine.
    Last edited by FBW; 8th December 2017 at 14:27.

  10. #850
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    RAll

    and its very much concerns about its stealthy
    This is pure F-ing nonsense so stop bringing it up. The stealth has only ever been questioned by butthurt fanboys from out west. Never ounce. Not even once has a western military official said "oh well the su 57 isn't that stealthy. So we need not worry"

    The first official reaction when western military brass seen the su 57 was "plasma stealth obviously failed ,because they did(the Russians) stealth the hard way." Then they proceeded to call it the Raptorski, because of its similar stealth shape.

    su 57 is the stealthiest jet in the world from the front. And its guaranteed more stealthy than the j-20.
    Last edited by KGB; 8th December 2017 at 14:14.

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    @JSR, you are funny when you tells Su-57 eill be improved frmo to be a 6 generation fighter. Firstly Su-57 needs to be a 5º generation fighter, and its very much concerns about its stealthy and about its fusion sensors.... And it its 2 of the most important parameters for to tell a aircraft is a 5º generation or not. In this moment Su-57 does not seem a 5º generation aircraft, or not like in occident is called 5º generation aircraft.

    And Rafale is not obsolote fighter, i think you need read more and dont tell stupid things. For example, Rafale has aesa radar, but not the Su-35 russian aircraft. Is the most important aircraft in russia in this moment obsolet too???
    Rafale is as much obsolete as LCA despite sensor fusion, AESA and 45% composite by weight while MIG-31BM2 is not obsolete until 2028 at earliest. that will be time when 6G technologies will surpass current effectiveness of MIG-31BM. I don't expect that with your limited knowledge you will understand it.

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    According to the different Russian sources ...

    The images are links to the articles


    ....

    .....

    ......

    .......

    ........

    .........


    ... on the 05. Dec 2017 Su-57 (заводской индекс Т-50, проект "ПАК ФА") fighter aircraft, Борт № 052 * Серийный № T-50-2 - first flight on 03. Mar 2011), taking off from PJSC "Gromov Flight Research Institute"О "ЛИИ им. М.М.Громова") at Zhukovsky, performed its first, 17 min long flight, with the Saturn Type 30 (Изделие 30) engine installed on the port-side position and the AL-41F-1 (Изделие 117), twin-shaft, TVC, afterburning turbofan engine (fan diameter: 932,0 mm / 36,7 in; BPR: 0,60:1; engine architecture: 4F–9HPC1HPT–1LPT), rated at 86,30 kN / 8.800 kgf / 19.401 lbf dry and 147,10 kN / 15.000 kgf / 33.069 lbf with the afterburner, remaining on the starboard side. It is visible that that the Изделие 30 engine features a serrated engine nozzle, compared to the flat nozzle on the Изделие 117 (AL-41F-1) engine.





    Unlike the basic Saturn AL-31F (изд. 99В) engine and all its derivates produced by both JSC NPO "Saturn" (ПАО "НПО "Сатурн") and "MMPP "Salut" ("ММПП "Салют"), including the latest Saturn AL-41F-1S (изд. 117C) and Saturn AL-41F-1 (изд. 117) engines, and that were designed on the 4F–9HPC1HPT–1LPT engine architecture, the architecture of the new Izdeliye 30 engine, 3F–5HPC1HPT–1LPT, in a much greater extent resembles the one of the AL-31F M3 (изд. 99M3), twin-shaft, TVC, afterburning turbofan (fan diameter: 924,0 mm / 36,4 in; BPR: 0,61:1; engine architecture: 3F–6HPC1HPT–1LPT), OPR: 27,72:1, rated at 150,04 kN / 15.300 kgf / 33.731 lbf on the afterburner, the engine that was competing with Saturn AL-41F-1 (изд. 117) for the propulsion of the Sukhoi "PAK FA" / T-50 aircraft, with an all new 3-stage KND 924-3 fan, 6-stage HP compressor and a new KLIVT thrust vector nozzles (also used on the MiG-29 aircraft's derivatives: MiG-29M OVT - TVC demonstrator and recently presented MiG-35). I have to say, once more, I find Salyut AL-31F M3, twin-shaft, TVC, afterburning turbofan engine as the perfect powerplant for the Chinese J-20 fighter jet, especially because of the fact "MMPP "Salut" has always been Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group's preferred engines' supplier. In my humble opinion, we'll have to wait for a while until we see WS-15 engine installed on the port-side (or starboard, whatever) position of their Chengdu J-20 aircraft …

    Looking at the next two images …





    … I would say that the Изделие 30 engine has larger diameter than the Saturn AL-41F-1 (изд. 117) engine (fan diameter: 932,0 mm / 36,7 in). I remember I have read somewhere that the Saturn AL-41F (Изделие 20) engine, once designed for the propulsion of MiG 1.44 MFI, had the fan diameter of 1.000,0 mm / 39,4 in. I don't know if that was correct data and if Izdeliye 30 engine has the same one, but there is no doubt that the temperatures, pressures, N1 and N2 speeds, mass flow of the Изделие 30 engine were heavily increased compared to the Saturn AL-41F-1 (изд. 117) engine. Namely, there are two basic ways to increase core's power: hot route - increasing HP turbine's inlet temperature (TIT) and cold route - increasing core's mass flow. The larger fan's airflow requires (I guess Izdeliye 30 engine has larger BPR than the Izdeliye 117 engine) more power from the engine's core. This can be achieved by raising the OPR (combustor inlet pressure / intake delivery pressure) just to induce more airflow into the core and by increasing TIT. Together, these parameters tend to increase core's thermal efficiency and improve engine's SFC.

    The desired OPR (overall pressure ratio) for the engine's Brayton cycle is usually achieved by the multiple axial stages on the core's compression section. Let me explain in just a few words how that functions at civil airliners' engines. F.e. Rolls-Royce tend to split the core's compression with an IP compressor supercharging the HP compressor, both units being driven by the turbines with a single stage on both, HPT and IPT turbines (the latest Trent XWB engine has two stages on IPT turbine – architecture 1F-8IPC=6HPC1HPT=2IPT-6LPT), mounted on separate HP and IP shafts. Consequently to this, the HPC needs only to develop a modest pressure ratio (~4.5:1). On the other side, U.S.' civil turbofan engines - Pratt & Whitney and General Electric, those aimed for the civil aircraft, use much higher HP compressor pressure ratios (~23:1 on the GEnx-1B - Boeing 787 and GEnx-2B - Boeing 747-8 engines) and are driven by a two-stage HP turbine (GEnx-1B/-2B, GE90-123" fan /128" fan, GE9X and Engine Alliance GP7200 engines do all have 2 stages on HPT). Even so, there are usually a few IP axial stages mounted on the LP shaft, just behind the fan, to further supercharge the core's compression system. Civil engines have multi-stages LP turbines, the number of stages being determined by the bypass ratio, the amount of IP compression on the LP shaft and the LPT blade's circumferential speed. And, if the BPR's ratio increases, the mean radius ratio of the fan and LPT increases. Consequently, if the fan is to rotate at its optimum blade speed, the LPT blading will spin slowly, so additional LPT stages will be required, to extract sufficient energy to drive the fan. That is the reason why the gearbox turbofan engines enter the big door at the civil airliners market. Currently, the most famous is Pratt & Whitney Pure Power PW1000G engine family, aimed for the wide spectar of the civil aircraft: Airbus A320neo aircraft family - A319neo, A320neo and A321neo, Bombardier CSeries - CS100 and CS300, Mitsubishi MRJ - MRJ70E and MRJ90E and Embraer E2 family- E175-E2, E190-E2 and E195-E2…)

    And while the commercial turbofan engine manufacturers have focused on developing very high BPR (bypass ratio) and OPR (overall pressure ratio) systems, a supersonic (mostly military) engines require a comparatively low BPR and CPR (compressor pressure ratio). Too large fan diameter creates too much frontal area drag, but also the massive volume of cool exhaust flow, and as such is not able to move fast enough to push the aircraft to supersonic speeds.

    On the front end of the engine, the FPR (fan pressure ratio) affects the specific thrust (thrust divided by the inlet airflow) and indirectly the speed of the air through the engine. And while the low-bypass engines tend to have very high specific thrust values, those large high-bypass turbofans have a very low specific thrust. Civilian turbofans usually use one large fan whereas high performance military turbofans typically use 3 or more fan stages for this exact reason (Izdeliye 117 engine has four of them while Izdeliye 30 engine has three). Retaining still for a moment on the engine's propulsion efficiency, the exhaust nozzle has to be mentioned as a highly important part of the whole story. In ideal conditions, a jet engine exhausts the flow at the ambient pressure so it could produce a stable area of thrust. However, a given engine can push the air out at a higher pressure than is the ambient one, but this flow will simply over-expand, collapse-in at its LP core and possibly re-expand. This phenomenon causes inefficiency and could be dangerous to the aircraft's operation. To allow the higher than the ambient pressure flow to expand under control, so the energy is translated more axially rather than radially, a divergent section of nozzle is required. Each angle designed considering the convergent and divergent sections has a specific Mach number and pressure ratio associated with it. Knowing that fact, it is not hard to conclude that the aircraft would have maximum efficiency across a wide range of Mach numbers with the variable convergent-divergent nozzle at its exhaust. But, such a type of nozzle is very complicated to build and requires a system to activate it, just like hydraulic one or bleed air. A fixed nozzle has much lower efficiency, but also and much lower cost of construction...

    Considering the thermal efficiency of the engine; all until the TIT is kept constant, specific thrust expound a maximum in its variation with CPR, because as the compressor pressure ratio is increased, the combustor's inlet temperature is also increased. This means that the fuel to air ratio must be decreased to avoid overheating the turbine, and if the CPR was large enough, the maximum allowable temperature would be achieved at the compressor outlet and any addition of the fuel would overheat the turbine. In this way, a turbojet engine with high CPR can't produce thrust at high Mach numbers without exceeding the maximum allowable TIT. No matter of the fact the thermal efficiency is increased with the higher CPR, the attendant decrease in specific thrust, at the higher Mach numbers, makes high-CPR turbojet engines impractical for supersonic flight. The optimum CPR reduces quickly with the increasing Mach number, in supersonic flight. On the other side; for the subsonic flight, high(er) CPR is welcome just to attain better engine's thermal efficiency and lower specific thrust. However, for the supersonic flights, lower CPRs are typically used to accomplish higher specific thrust …

    The development of the material technology, to a large degree, conditions the efficiency of the construction of the modern turbofan engine, and to search for more power and thrust out of the existing or completely new engine´s constructions, implies the existence of the higher thermal and mechanical stresses of the engine's construction, and all because of the increasing of their operating parameters (pressures, temperatures, mass flow, rotational speeds…). In the same way as the increased mechanical stresses may affect the fractures and tearing-offs of the materials, the increased long-term temperature stresses could easily cause a change in the structure of the materials leading to their disintegration. Besides, to have a thermally efficient engine does not mean that it is, in the same time, a propulsive efficient engine just for every purpose…

    No matter of the engine's limitations, conditioned by its architecture and the core's geometry, there are still many opportunities for the engine's improvements: in its aerodynamics, higher rotational speeds, improved combustors, higher working parameters (temperatures, pressures - FPR, CPR and OPR, TIT, mass flow...), stronger cooling of the thermally most loaded engine's sections, using of the new sophisticated materials… Very interesting and wide area …

    Images below: Sukhoi Su-57 prototype, Борт № 052 * Серийный № T-50-2 - from two different views …





    For the end of this post, I have tried to find out, using the images I have made out of the video file, if the Izdeliye 30 engine's nozzle plane's distance to the tip of the tail boom is larger or smaller than the one of the Izdeliye 117 engine. It is definetely larger, but from this perspective I had to rely in a much more extent on isometrics than on the geometry, so I wouldn't calculate with some specific values like in the case of the Chengdu J-20.Those one I have shown below are just relative …

    ......Please click for a larger view ...

    ..........

    ..........Mario

    Last edited by mfranjic; 16th February 2018 at 21:51.
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  13. #853
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    Good report mfranjic

    Now watch the usual suspects attack your sources.

  14. #854
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    @RALL

    @JSR, you are funny when you tells Su-57 eill be improved frmo to be a 6 generation fighter. Firstly Su-57 needs to be a 5º generation fighter, and its very much concerns about its stealthy and about its fusion sensors.... And it its 2 of the most important parameters for to tell a aircraft is a 5º generation or not. In this moment Su-57 does not seem a 5º generation aircraft, or not like in occident is called 5º generation aircraft.
    Even Su-57 crtics consider it VLO in frontal aspect (with radar blocker) but because of of non stealth nozzles, side and rear aspect wasn't VLO. Now we see it got new engine and new nozzle. So stop this nonsense it isn't VLO.

    Sensor fusion? Well if you think Su-57 with much higher computing power and more complex software then F-22 doesn't have sensors fusion then I really don't know what to say?

  15. #855
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    Hmm.



    Source; https://aviaforum.ru/threads/pak-fa.31278/page-52

    Anyone remember if it is the same dude that posted the claimed early Izd.30 pics?

    A few interesting points;

    1; There is only one Izd.30 engine if i am understanding her correctly. Meaning the test-stand one was fitted into T-50-2. I assumed there were two.

    2; "[It]Will be soon working on two engines." So T-50-2 is to get two Izd.30's...
    Last edited by Berkut; 9th December 2017 at 23:50.

  16. #856
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkut View Post
    Hmm.



    Source; https://aviaforum.ru/threads/pak-fa.31278/page-52

    Anyone remember if it is the same dude that posted the claimed early Izd.30 pics?

    A few interesting points;

    1; There is only one Izd.30 engine if i am understanding her correctly. Meaning the test-stand one was fitted into T-50-2. I assumed there were two.

    2; "[It]Will be soon working on two engines." So T-50-2 is to get two Izd.30's...
    Post seemed a little cryptic (or translation is off), couldn’t tell if they were saying only one in exsistence was tested or only one ready for flight testing. I would assume there would be a test stand mule.


    Addition- LP Fan (IGV and nosecone section actually) make an interesting comparison with the YF120, and contrast with the P&W IGV sections of the F119 and F135.
    Last edited by FBW; 10th December 2017 at 00:48.

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    Did Su-35 bort 710 ever get 2 Izdeliye 117 engines? Sensoru might be saying that the 2 engines they are working on now are for a new airframe.

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    710 always had only one of the engines as Izd.117, at a later date it was flying with... something else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkut
    Anyone remember if it is the same dude that posted the claimed early Izd.30 pics?
    Yes, he is definitely the same guy and I am not relying just on my memory.

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    Well the point I was trying to make is that 710 is a flying laboratory, and now T-50-2 is also one (for those who didn't notice, "ЛЛ" is now painted on the vertical stabilizers). So the two new Izdeliye 30s that Sensoru says they are building are probably for a new airframe (T-50-10?). Any clue as to what 710 was flying with later, Berkut?

    Also I know Sensoru posted the pictures of the Izdeliye 30 nozzle originally, but they seem to be deleted.

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    Of all climbing on mirrors that last one about a single izdelje 30 being ready allow me to say that the naysayers are now officially scratching the barrel.
    Almost everytime you introduce a totally new engine you put it on a multiengined flying Laboratory for its first fly-off so to avoid that any possible malfunction would lead to the loss of a plane.
    We have recently seen in this same thread a propjet mounted on a Il-76 for same purpose.
    It's just a standard practice: this is instead the first time, for what i'm aware, that this happen using the veryb same frame it would end to be mounted on instead to a totally unrelated one.
    Fact that they passed diretly from the T-50-9 to -11 it's a clear proof how the -10 will be the one on which they would show the whole package, having completely new components they have begun works on it first because they know they would have needed more time than with the already well know -117, hene the discrepany between prototype numbers and their effective show off.
    Last edited by Marcellogo; 10th December 2017 at 10:46.

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    @FBW

    You had previously mentioned the usage of adaptive fan i- GE YF120 as a means of introducing variable cycle into an engine.

    , 2. use adaptive fan (similar to YF120) some parts of VCE tech like increased use of CMC and new heat exchangers ,
    FBW, Can you pls briefly explain what is this adaptive fan? How does it function and how does this fan help to realize variable cycle.

    Here's the GE YF120 engine. The first stage fan or IGVof the Item-30 bears quite a resemblance to the IGV of the YF-120. And the F-119-PW-100 and F-135 1st stage fans /IGV are completely different in design to the YF120 fan.

    Name:  GE YF120 F-35 623.jpg
Views: 1370
Size:  78.2 KB

    So, there's a good chance of the Item-30 being a variable cycle engine but withkut having the third stream airflow since according to those articles you have posted, a third stage airstream will increase the engine diameter.
    Last edited by Arihant; 10th December 2017 at 11:11.

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    Fact that they passed diretly from the T-50-9 to -11 it's a clear proof how the -10 will be the one on which they would show the whole package, having completely new components they have begun works on it first because they know they would have needed more time than with the already well know -117, hene the discrepany between prototype numbers and their effective show off.
    Um, no. T-50-10 might be "the most complete" frame, but i havent seen evidence either way. The reason why -11 was finished before -10 was because there were structural upgrades that were done to -11 during production while -10 had to have it done "after the fact". Hence it lagging behind -11.

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    @Arihant- short answer is one has nothing to do with the other. The IGV design was interesting cause the vanes has camber (or looked like their cambered), like the YF120. I don’t remember what the advantage is, but it’s fitted to GE commercial turbofans so....

    Variable bypass like you are talking about adds a second set of bypass valves in fan stage. Guess it would be more accurate to call it adaptive fan stage engine.

    As far as type 30 being a variable bypass engine, we mentioned some reasons why it might not, but who knows. Even without adopting the “third stream” approach of adding another bypass duct, the fan stage would have to be wider than -117. Another tip-off is weight, the type 30 is supposed to be considerably lighter than -117. The YF120 engine was heavier than the -1119 despite similar size/thrust, allegedly the AL-41 was heavy as well, tough to add diameter to fan stage and bypass valves, controls and come in lighter than current engine. But who really knows.
    Last edited by FBW; 10th December 2017 at 13:56.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcellogo View Post
    Of all climbing on mirrors that last one about a single izdelje 30 being ready allow me to say that the naysayers are now officially scratching the barrel.
    Almost everytime you introduce a totally new engine you put it on a multiengined flying Laboratory for its first fly-off so to avoid that any possible malfunction would lead to the loss of a plane.off.
    This is the type of post that kicks off needless arguements because the poster couldn’t be bothered to read the thread and origin of the comment. It wasn’t naysayers claiming this. Berkut posted that from a different website, we were trying to figure out what they meant.


    Read first then jump on the negative commentary, you just pulled a KGB.

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    the structural frame has large ellipsoid holes provisioned in the engine bay. Ideally suited for a bypass conduit. We have been discussing this earlier.

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    We don't know if the Su-30 bort 710 testbed did test a Idz 30. It might have tested sections of Idz 30 as only the low or high pressure modular stages. The combustion section or only a new nozzle. Who knows.

    One thing is clear though, you can do this since the AL-31F is a MODULAR jet engine.

    http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/aerospace-...nes/al-41f-1s/
    Last edited by haavarla; 10th December 2017 at 14:17.
    Thanks

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    Can we assume that the range of 1500km @ supersonic and 3500km @ subsonic with 117 will only increase with the new engine? If so, by how much?

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    That is a good question and one i have been wondering ever since Pogo made that statement. Whether the numbers are Izd.117 or Izd.30 based. I *suspect* they were Izd.117 based, but no way of knowing for sure.

    If they were assuming Izd.117 engines, i suspect the supersonic range wont change much, if at all. The reason is that T-50 will be supercruising faster, but i expect the fuel burn to be about the same. Remember, if you want to go twice as fast, you need 4 times the energy... So whatever fuel savings Izd.30 offers over Izd.117 those will be nullified by larger speed and hence larger overall fuel burn at max dry thrust. Subsonic range will likely improve by 10-15% since the velocity will be the same there. But that is just my 10 cents.

  30. #870
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    Well it depends on the thrust setting and what kind of supercruise Mach we are talking about. if you would go most economical, then around Mach 1.1-1.2 i guess.

    By default, if you have lets say 2000kgf more dry thrust on Idz 30, that's a total of 4K extra over 117 engines. It would make up for lower power settings on new engine and still travel just as fast.
    Thanks

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