Key.Aero Network
Register Free

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 80

Thread: World Piston Engined Speed Record Attempt

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    England
    Posts
    5,638

    World Piston Engined Speed Record Attempt

    I understand that Steve Hinton Jr is going use a modified P-51 Mustang to attempt to break the world speed record for a piston engined aircraft, currently held by Lyle Shelton in the modified Grumman Bearcat 'Rare Bear'. His father was a previous holder of the record;

    Darryl Greenamyer in 1969 (483 mph)
    Steve Hinton Sr. 1979 (499 mph)
    Lyle Shelton in 1989 (524 mph)

    I never realised it was that long ago that Rare Bear last broke it. Its going to be some achievement if he succeeds. Best of luck!



    Rob

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Close to the last operational 11 Grp 'B of B' airfield
    Posts
    2,079
    Good luck to him

    I wonder which P-51 they are going to use, or is this is 'new build' one specially for the record attempt?

    Those high tuned Merlin's on exotic fuel do sound something else at high speed.....I love this short clip, taken from out in the desert somewhere at Reno, what a noise!!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6DWBkF7NUI

    I was with it all the way until letting the brakes off..........

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Angels one-five over North Bucks.
    Posts
    10,761
    Lyle Shelton in 1989 (524 mph)
    Trying to squeak a few more mph, the word went out for a four blade spinner to improve the front end aerodynamics.

    I got the call...'can you find a Varsity Spinner'.

    Indeed I could, sitting with a load more aircraft junk in Ted Sinclair's front garden in nearby Milton Keynes.

    The deed was done and I smile every time I see an image of Rare Bear with the four blade prop.

    Mark
    "...the story had been forensically examined and was deeply impressive. I knew that the whole story was a load of myth and baloney…"

  4. #4
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    656
    Approximately 520mph is said to be about as fast as a piston powered aircraft can go in sustained level flight. On that basis it would need to be something rather radical to beat the existing record. Perhaps using an ultra-highly tuned engine that has to be rebuilt between each flight.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Wanganui, New Zealand
    Posts
    1,041
    The aircraft being used is Voodoo, everyone's favourite purple P-51, although for the record attempt she's changed her appearance quite a bit! Apparently the paint strip helped her lose several hundred pounds.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lon Moer at WIX
    picture from fb
    Word on the 'net is that the attempt is being made in Idaho, but details have been kept under very tight wraps - I imagine to prevent crowds and the resultant pressure on the crew. Good luck Stevo!

    Merlins going around the Reno pylons certainly sound very different to those passing by an airshow crowd! It's otherworldly! I've only seen videos online and DVD footage, in person it must be amazing.

    As an aside: when Steve Sr broke the record in the Red Baron he was 27. Amazing.
    Last edited by K5054NZ; 24th August 2017 at 00:37.
    "those who know keep quiet, and those who don't are frowned upon for asking." - snafu

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    303
    It was mentioned on one of the P-51 Facebook group pages that the wing was redone with a newly engineered and significantly modified airfoil chord where the wings are now thicker at the root and thinner at the wing tips (the highly qualified company Aviation Partners, Inc. being the ones who did the redesign), and that the entire aircraft has been tuned/geared to the 550-mph range. In one of its test flights in recent weeks, it reached 565-mph true in a dive and the aircraft handled the speed just fine. There seems to be a lot of confidence that the record will be broken (despite needing to reach I think about 534-mph to do so). Rod Lewis recently quipped that if the Voodoo team are successful, they'll dust off Rare Bear and go after the record again, but a potential new record by Voodoo could very well forever put that possibility too far out of reach.

    Knowing that Stevo is very close in age to me, he just turned 30 yesterday I believe (so if he does break the record, his dad will still have the record for youngest pilot having done so).
    Last edited by JohnTerrell; 24th August 2017 at 02:45.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    The Wirral
    Posts
    2,746
    Tell them to make sure the tailplane trim tab is securely attached.

    Anon.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Wanganui, New Zealand
    Posts
    1,041
    I'm not sure what to make of that (to me) tactless comment, Anon. I'm stunned.
    "those who know keep quiet, and those who don't are frowned upon for asking." - snafu

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Not far from here!
    Posts
    1,726
    Not funny just crass.
    "Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind."(Mary Baker Eddy)

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Aerospace Valley
    Posts
    4,433
    AP Inc is Joe Clarks company, the guy who owns the former TFC (& now dual-control) Tigercat. He knows a bit about aerodynamics, if you've seen a 737 with winglets, you've seen his products. He also shares Mr Greys passion for Astons.
    If anybody ever tells you anything about an aeroplane which is so bloody complicated you can't understand it, take it from me: It's all balls. RJM.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    cambridge uk
    Posts
    6,451
    Is this aircraft really still a P51? Seems it is pretty much a new design and technology

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Englishman in Germany
    Posts
    477
    Why does it matter if it's a P51 or not? It just has to go fast.
    Can't help wondering if the A or B model with the thinner fuselage would go faster?

    Still I love a speed record attempt and I'd love to see them succeed. Good luck guys.

    Edit: I see that this isn't that much faster than the piston engined land speed record, which stands at 437.183 mph, although the car topped 450mph during one pass.
    Last edited by James D; 25th August 2017 at 12:06.
    Have YOU used the "Will it be at Legends" joke yet today?

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    cambridge uk
    Posts
    6,451
    "I understand that Steve Hinton Jr is going use a modified P-51 Mustang" Well i guess that is the link between the P51 and the "historic part of the forum.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Cambridge, Duxfordshire
    Posts
    3,481
    The oft-quoted 520mph 'barrier' does not exist. The problem has always been one of efficiency of prop blade aerofoils as they transit through sonic speed - you get more and more drag for any given 'lift' (ie thrust) as things get 'shockier' for want of a better phrase. This does not mean you can't keep pouring on more and more horsepower, or that there isn't an engineering limit to this for every design, but there's no absolute limiting figure.

    To break the record the aircraft needs to be substantially different to a P-51, and embody all the things learned ( and often curiously forgotten) about local compressibility effects since 1940!
    Last edited by Beermat; 25th August 2017 at 13:36.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    Just over the hill from Croydon's best piece of history
    Posts
    203
    How standard is the prop? It looks quite coarse (is that the right term?) at the root.

    Good luck Stevo!

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Englishman in Germany
    Posts
    477
    I wonder if one of these "scimitar" props would work on an old piston engine?
    Name:  blog-e-2-hawkeye_mg_5477.jpg
Views: 2834
Size:  190.9 KB
    Have YOU used the "Will it be at Legends" joke yet today?

  17. #17
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    656
    No one is claiming it is a impenetrable barrier. The figure of 520mph represents an approximate point beyond which going faster (already hard to get that far) starts becoming very hard indeed. As far as I know the figure is based on what the Centaurus Sea Fury would be capable of without serious modification. I recall that there was once a proposal to build a supersonic piston engined aircraft which had a pusher layout so that the propellor was contained within the shock wave. Nothing seems to have come of that proposal.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    miles away
    Posts
    622
    I understand John Sandberg's 'Tsunami' is also being rebuilt with a record attempt in mind.

    Anyway, good luck to Stevo, I wish him every success.
    Work! You don't know what work is. When I was a boy...

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Cambridge, Duxfordshire
    Posts
    3,481
    Exactly - that's the limit for a Centaurus Sea Fury. Nothing more than that. It gets progressively (exponentially) harder as you go faster - where it becomes 'very hard indeed' is entirely subjective. Designers tend to identify the maximum theoretical speed of their design as the speed which is 'very hard' to exceed- c.f. Lockheed and all the nonsense at the time about the P-38 hitting some aerial speed limit at a lot less than 520mph level speed (in fact it was an aerodynamic oversight that Lockheed never publicly admitted to) Those drag curves are a moveable feast - including those defined by prop design.
    Last edited by Beermat; 25th August 2017 at 22:51.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Wanganui, New Zealand
    Posts
    1,041
    Apparently a scimitar prop was tried on an Unlimited racer in the 1990s but wasn't successful.

    Here's what seems to be the official website for the attempt, confirmed to be in Idaho on 27 August: http://www.pursuitaviation.com/world-speed-record
    "those who know keep quiet, and those who don't are frowned upon for asking." - snafu

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    135 metres from Boscombe Down
    Posts
    1,940
    I have wondered if it is physically possible for a piston powered aircraft to go supersonic.
    If you're not living on the edge then you're taking up too much space!

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Posts
    253
    In a dive, yes it is.

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Englishman in Germany
    Posts
    477
    I wonder if you could use a propellor to go properly supersonic in sustained level flight, given that even supersonic jets have to slow the intake air speed to subsonic speeds?
    Have YOU used the "Will it be at Legends" joke yet today?

  24. #24
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    656
    The idea behind the supersonic proposal I mentioned above was that by using a pusher configuration the propellor would be behind the rest of the airframe. The airframe would create and shape the shockwave(s) so that the propellor could operate in a more benign environment. That was the theory anyway. I don't know if the project progressed beyond a general proposal.

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    3,249
    I wonder if you could use a propellor to go properly supersonic in sustained level flight, given that even supersonic jets have to slow the intake air speed to subsonic speeds?
    thing is, the jets need the air to be subsonic as it would stall the compressor blades otherwise (which would at best end just in a flameout, and at worst, the engine and aircraft blown to pieces). propeller engines don't have such a problem but rather the efficiency of the propeller at supersonic speed, which is abysmal, needing huge amounts of power to overcome the drag...

  26. #26
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Posts
    253
    I wonder if the blades became shorter but pitch increased with speed, whether supersonic speeds would be easier to attain.

    Maybe put on several rows of blades, in a case to gain compressed air, oh, er....😆

  27. #27
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Englishman in Germany
    Posts
    477
    Yet aren`t compressor blades and propellor blades doing basically the same job?
    Have YOU used the "Will it be at Legends" joke yet today?

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    SPL Rad112/09DME
    Posts
    1,620
    Basically: yes. But after that it gets really different: compressor blades work in a confined space, props in open air. Compressor blades change the energy (speed) of the air by giving it a huge push in the right direction, prop blades create a pressure difference between the two sides (as the wing does but in a different direction), with the resulting force pulling on the prop. In the end both accellerate the air moving past them.

  29. #29
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Glorious Souffff
    Posts
    5,096
    For jets, shockwaves in the intake, particularly oblique ones reduce the speed to subsonic by the time it reaches the engine face.

  30. #30
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Wanganui, New Zealand
    Posts
    1,041
    Pursuit Aviation posted on Facebook less than 10min ago: "We are preparing for the attempt as we speak! To be notified right when the Live broadcast starts, click “Follow” at the top of the page. From there, you can choose to be notified for “All Live Videos”. Stay tuned!"

    For those with Facebook access their page is here (not sure if you need to be a Facebook member to see it): https://www.facebook.com/PursuitAviationCo/

    EDIT: "UPDATE: Due to current conditions the World Record attempt will be delayed until tomorrow. We will let everyone know in the morning about tomorrow afternoon's attempt and the live feed."
    Last edited by K5054NZ; 28th August 2017 at 00:57.
    "those who know keep quiet, and those who don't are frowned upon for asking." - snafu

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

 

- Part of the    Network -

KEY AERO AVIATION NEWS

MAGAZINES

AVIATION FORUM

SHOP

 

WEBSITES