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Thread: Rafale 2017-2

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by moon_light
    Can you post the photo again, i can't see anything.
    No need to be too skeptical, Rafale should be able to do that since even F-16 can achieve similar speed with 3 fuel tank.
    From F-16 flight manual, each 600 gallons ( 2727.65L ) tanks on station 4/6 has drag index of 20 when nothing is carried on station 3/7 (no interference drag), with nonjetison pylon the total drag index is 28 for each
    , the centerline 300 gallons (1363L ) tank has drag index of 18, with pylon the drag index is 25. Wing tip missiles doesn't add to drag index.
    So totally, an F-16 with two wing tip AIM-120, two 600 gallons tanks and one 300 gallons tanks will have total drag index of 81



    F-16CJ with CFT and drag index of 100 can reach top speed of Mach 1.6 , it would not be too much of a stretch to say F-16 can reach Mach 1.7 with 3 tanks and no CFTs.

  2. #62
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    The Rafale international forum :
    http://rafale.freeforums.org/

    Rafale news blog :
    http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/

  3. #63
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    A couple of questions: wasn't "Tiger Meet" supposed to be the meeting of units having the tiger as amblem? and if yes, what does Flottille 11F has to do there? their amblem is a Sea Horse AFAIK

    Click image for larger version. 

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  4. #64
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    It goes back when they operated from the Clemenceau aircraft carrier which emblem is a Tiger.

    The Rafale international forum :
    http://rafale.freeforums.org/

    Rafale news blog :
    http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/

  5. #65
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    Ah ok, not unit related in fact...

  6. #66
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    Can one of you rafale ooglers tell me what the empty weight on the M is and how much heavier it is than the C? Also it would be nice to have a source. Thanks much.

  7. #67
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    Rafale M

    Empty Weight: 10 196 kg or 22 478 lb

    from French navy site:

    http://ffaa.net/aircraft/rafale/caracteristiques.htm

    it is said to be about 500kg heavier than the C

  8. #68
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    Can one of you rafale ooglers tell me what the empty weight on the M is and how much heavier it is than the C? Also it would be nice to have a source. Thanks much.
    < 10,500 Kg

    Source :
    http://www.defense.gouv.fr/content/d...2009-010-A.pdf

    You have to do some maths based on the information provided by this crash report.

    First you have the take off weight of the Rafale M22 : 20300 Kg

    Then you have the complete loadout of the Rafale M22 at take off:

    • 6700 Kg of F44 fuel = 6700 Kg
    • 1 x equiped pilot = 90 Kg
    • 2 x mica IRX = 224 Kg
    • 2 x Mica EMX = 224 Kg
    • 6 x 250 Kg exercice munitions = 1500 Kg
    • 2 x RPL711 drop tanks = 240 Kg
    • 2 x LM 3466 missile launchers (wing tip) = 114 Kg
    • 2 x LM 3066 missile launchers (fuselage) = 122 Kg
    • 2 x AT730 triple bomb adaptor > 240 Kg
    • 2 x PU 708 Universal pylon > 240 Kg
    • 2 x PE 156A2 Universal pylon > 260 Kg
    • 30 Liters of H-537 hydraulic fluid =25.5 Kg
    • 20 Liters of O-156 engine oil = 19.9 Kg
    • 3 Liters of Coolanol 25R = 2.7 Kg


    With all that you can estimate an empty weight of about 10,500 Kg (with engine oil, hydrolic/cooling fluids and the 2 wing tip missile launchers)
    Note : I might have underestimated the weight of the Universal pylons and the triple bomb adaptor in my calculation as I have no solid source for their actual weight (heavier pylons would mean lighter empty weight)
    Last edited by Kovy; 1st August 2017 at 22:00.
    The Rafale international forum :
    http://rafale.freeforums.org/

    Rafale news blog :
    http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/

  9. #69
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    Thank you kovy and toocool. As ever I cannot but be impressed by how much this tiny bird can lug around.

    sincerely yours in oogling the dimpled one,
    USS

  10. #70
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    https://www.livefistdefence.com/2017...r-cockpit.html

    Nice read, although not much news.

    Capt. Cassan, who says he has flown F/A-18s for three years and deems it a ‘versatile multi-mission jet’, says that when it comes to long range sensors, the Rafale still manages to see ‘much better than what the Americans can see’
    I assume he flew the Hornet and not the SH... a pity...

    “It’s almost a pleasure to trap at night. All we’ve got to do is align the vector instead of the mirror. With a wider HUD, landing is no longer the anxiety it used to be,” says Capt. Cassan, the Landivisiau CO. With half of all Rafale M pilots qualified to night trap at sea, half of all current operations have shifted to after dark hours over Iraq and Syria.
    Interesting...

  11. #71
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    We have mentioned here that Dassault was one of the 4 nominee at the NAA's collier trophy, the US aerospace recompense, for it's Advanced low-light enhanced vision system, the FalconEye...

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by TomcatViP; 3rd August 2017 at 17:04.

  12. #72
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    Is there a document with a comprehensive breakdown of the total cost of the program to the French taxpayer? Something like an accounting of Research and Development Cost, Procurement Cost for the fleet (both money spent and projected to complete the program) and the cost of upgrades?
    Old radar types never die; they just phased array

  13. #73
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    Only 20 liters of engine oil? With two engines? My car seems to carry that much per engine..

  14. #74
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    Is there a document with a comprehensive breakdown of the total cost of the program to the French taxpayer? Something like an accounting of Research and Development Cost, Procurement Cost for the fleet (both money spent and projected to complete the program) and the cost of upgrades?
    I think the only one you will get is that old one concerning 294 planes. Every updates till F3 were scheduled and included in it, until the one billion more value for the F3-R, neither the recently started F4. 2006 values here http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/12...asp#P409_12225 specially the suty cost 10,636 milliards d'euros, dont 8,803 milliards d'euros à la charge de l'Etat

  15. #75
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    How is the new Franco German fighter going to be incorporated into discussion about Dassault ? Similar to the Euro fighter I guess.

    Which means that the Dassault brand, will be seen as a 2nd tier , that builds only 4th and 4.5 gen aircraft. And im saying this as a stealth skeptic.

    Dassault should think about stealth skinning and hiding the engines a little better , on at least one product line, otherwise they'll get taken to the cleaners by FC 31, F 35 and the UAE/Russian concept.

  16. #76
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    Rafale demonstrator flew back in 1986. about 1988 or 89 (not sure) they received new requirements, to incorporate stealth as much as possible into the design.. the whole fighter has been redesigned with low RCS in mind then. It looks similar, but there isn't a single part in common.

    They've been working on lots of things since then, and low RCS research is also part of it. About the next franco-german fighter, for now there's only teh intent to make something together between political leaders of today... it is still along way before a common set of requirements is decided, and even further away, the decision about who will make what

  17. #77
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    I think the only one you will get is that old one concerning 294 planes. Every updates till F3 were scheduled and included in it, until the one billion more value for the F3-R, neither the recently started F4. 2006 values here http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/12...asp#P409_12225 specially the suty cost 10,636 milliards d'euros, dont 8,803 milliards d'euros à la charge de l'Etat
    Thanks. So how much total spent buying how many aircraft (state expenditure and not whatever the OEM may have put in) in say 2017 Euros? Is there any data file put together by french natsec analysts and/or media? Even a half baked effort that goes into each and every contract issued pertaining to the program (like the one done by the french analyst on the F-35) would work.
    Last edited by bring_it_on; 4th September 2017 at 19:54.
    Old radar types never die; they just phased array

  18. #78
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    Interesting topic that hasn't benn rehashed for years. I'll dig.
    In the meanwhile, in y memory, total schedule cost was 47 billion euros (1986 euro) for the originally scheduled number of planes (around 320, need to check)
    Industrials had to pay for 25% of development cost (40 billion francs). The eal as to refund those on exports.
    Cour des Comptes said the drift of costs was around 5%
    180 ordered, present target 286.... (250 own estimate, but number should vary greatly)
    numbers cited by Senate i linked above include VAT (20%). Dunno if it is of interest to you.
    In 2012, Senate estimated value of program : 44.2 billion euros for 286 planes.
    aka 112 miilion per plane (but i think it is without VAT)
    ADD F3R program (not originally scheduled, 1 billion dev).
    It is very difficult to assess present studies values (called PEA, Plan d'Etudes Amont) as they are financed by DGA more or less independantly.
    Values are generally given in then year dollar/franc, makin difficult to compute values.
    Maybe the best way to assess value of the program would be to check "programme 146) of every LPF (loi de programmation de finances) concerning the acquisition of hardware. program 144 about studies is interesting also albeit more or less secret.
    Add to that adaptations of the Combat system to nuclear missile ASMP/A which may (or not) be payed in the programme ...
    Mostly straight from my own memory. As said above, i'll try to dig.

  19. #79
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    Thanks. The reason I ask is because I happened to be involved in a discussion recently with a retired Royal Navy officer visiting the US, where he drew parallels between the F-22A and the USAF and the Rafale with the Armée de l'air. I certainly didn't know circa 2012, France intended on spending in excess of $50 Billion (as he put it) to close out the program before a comprehensive mid-life upgrade. Given the budget disparity between the two nations from that perspective (not that it is the best way to look at it) the program seems like the F-22 and B-2 rolled into one.
    Old radar types never die; they just phased array

  20. #80
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    Thanks. The reason I ask is because I happened to be involved in a discussion recently with a retired Royal Navy officer visiting the US, where he drew parallels between the F-22A and the USAF and the Rafale with the Armée de l'air. I certainly didn't know circa 2012, France intended on spending in excess of $50 Billion (as he put it) to close out the program before a comprehensive mid-life upgrade. Given the budget disparity between the two nations from that perspective (not that it is the best way to look at it) the program seems like the F-22 and B-2 rolled into one.
    *
    *
    you are bsolutely right. Rafale program is very expensive considering french budget. However, it is allowed by two reasons : first is independance : ITAR free. Second is strategic, Rafale being one of our nuclear vector. All this due to international poisture as an independant nuclear power. However, you raised an interesting question, i'll keep digging for raw data

  21. #81
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    BIO I think your remark considering F22+B2 cost is very disingenuous. The Rafale program should be compared to the F22 + F35 cost & then brought back to the scale of the country, since the Rafale takes the role of both (+the SH+a couple others).

    While the B2 is expensive, the program cost quoted by wiki is 45 bn dollars (pretty much the cost of the Rafale programme more or less), which is peanuts compared to the F35 cost.

    Nic

  22. #82
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    I wasn't really trying to actually compare it to the F-22+B2 just trying to emphasize of what a >$50 Billion program looks from the French MOD's spending perspective given their overall budget top line.

    As a reference, the F-22 program including the engine, all the integration work and the acquisition (not increment 3++++) was $69 or so Billion for what it turned out to be just over 180 aircraft. The JSF program is projected as a sub $400 Billion program including MILCON across the US services and the projected procurement of 2400+ aircraft etc.

    To be precise, the intention was to stay relative to the overall defense budgets.
    Last edited by bring_it_on; 5th September 2017 at 19:25.
    Old radar types never die; they just phased array

  23. #83
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    Indeed, but adding F22 + F35 divided by budget would be more telling than adding F22 + B2 divided by budget. Rafale is the only combat plane of the French forces (if we can still call them french) while the F22 + B2 would represent only a fraction of the US forces. Not a fair comparison IMHO.

    Nic

  24. #84
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    Indeed, but adding F22 + F35 divided by budget would be more telling than adding F22 + B2 divided by budget. Rafale is the only combat plane of the French forces (if we can still call them french)
    Again, that is besides the point. The point was that for its budget, the French MOD spent a very large amount on the program to acquire the inventory it has (200?). There is obviously a good explanation for this and Halloween provided it - It simply being the cost of the strategic independence. Still, what I wanted to get a better understanding of was the actual contract vehicle and a tallying up of the program spend and a more detailed accounting of the program. I'm sure if I spent a lot of time I could find something on defense-aerospace, assuming that they cover domestic systems with the same amount of rigor as they cover international systems.

    Any comparison (F-22 vs Rafale, or F-22+F-35 vs Rafale or F-22+F-35+F-18E/F/+ EA/18G vs Rafale) is tricky because the F-35/JSF is a US DOD wide program and not one managed by each US service. There is no real way for me to remove the RDT&E, procurement, and MILCON cost attributed to the STOVL variant and its purchase by the USMC.
    Last edited by bring_it_on; 5th September 2017 at 19:39.
    Old radar types never die; they just phased array

  25. #85
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    Strategic forces consumes 30% of the total procurement budget in 2017...

    Years ago, I asked myself the same question on a public forum dedicated to the Rafale (a very famous one among Fr blogger). The end result was that the cost of the Rafale per taxpayer top that of the F22 + F35 buy in the US by a non-negligible margin that can however be attributed to French aspiration of having a self sustained industry (even if that is not absolutely correct when you start digging in the network of subcontractor and IP losses during the years). The drawback (aside of the enormous sink in budget capabilities) is the absence of stealth.
    Last edited by TomcatViP; 5th September 2017 at 22:36.

  26. #86
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    Well that's a testament for french state being broke more than anything else... that's what happens when cryptocommunists are running the show for over 60 years.

  27. #87
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    Fact is that the Rafale is for the french what the F-22, F-35, B2, B1, B52, F-16, F-15, F-18 are for the US all put together... and even if you exclude heavy bombers (which would mean you exclude strategic bombers which the Rafale is for the french), the cost comparison would be more exact that way... The Rafale is an air force aircraft and navy aircraft, interceptor, bomber, reconnaissance aircraft, air superiority fighter, and so on.. it fulfills all these roles, and comparing it to only two of the american assets is, by definition, flawed

  28. #88
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    Very interesting info on this Rafale blog on the Indian and likely India specified weapons that will be integrated on the Rafale.

    Includes Python 5, Astra Mk2, Brahmos NG and the Spice 250,1000 and 2000.

    Rafale news blog- weapons integrated and planned to be integrated

  29. #89
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    Meteor trials are done (and succesful, includin retargeting a missile after shooting)


    F-18 and Rafale in slow motion at Sion and frecce tricolori

    https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https...khqgwKtqlGCXlE

    Expect 12 to 24 Rafale sales during next two days (while Sissi is in Paris). Last hurdle : financial warranty from COFACE (public insurance for weapon exports in France)
    Last edited by halloweene; 24th October 2017 at 19:31.

  30. #90
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    Carrier trapping at night (Rafale) - Full HUD



    Don't know if this has been posted before.

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