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Thread: Rafale 2017-2

  1. #31
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    Thanks Hallo

    One question, the F4 is going to field "THE" IFDL (more or less something based on what the Raptor uses) or "a" IFDL? And if its this last one (and i supose that it is), will it be using common standards to the rest of NATO (the ones that are being discussed now)?
    Last edited by Sintra; 20th June 2017 at 22:18.

  2. #32
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    "A" IFDL afaik. ad yes if possible common standards based. Understand this is a rough program (to be fielded in 2023-5 timeframe). Should be possible with software defined radios ("contact" program part 2 : air assets) . The photo is therefore general idea, but was validated to me as very probalbe by a Istres Dassault test pilot.
    Last edited by halloweene; 20th June 2017 at 22:29.

  3. #33
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    Thanks again Hallo

  4. #34
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    "The" IFDL in the F-22 is classified so no, it's not the same.

    Also, the above pic says LPI but not "directional".
    "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

  5. #35
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    As confirmed by Air Fan magazine, it will be directionnal.

    There are a lot of new interesting features in this F4 standard.
    There is also the development of the AASL, a 100 Kg/100 Km multi sensors A2G weapon which could be included in the F4. The MBDA smartglider is apparently a good candidate for that job:



    And also the THALES BAT-120 LG a 35 kG class LGB that can be carried in bundle of 3 on light hardpoints





    It is also worth noting that 73 new Rafale F4 will be delivered to the French forces from 2021
    Last edited by Kovy; 21st June 2017 at 00:00.
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  6. #36
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    Rafale needs to adopt the NUAI spec (NATO version of UAI).

    Also, that bomb looks like it's stackable beyond 3.
    "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

  7. #37
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    How can less be more? It's impossible. More is more.
    Yngwie Malmsteen

  8. #38
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    Regarding F4: So the RBE2 AESA radar will switch to GaN?

    Overall the F4 looks very potent, in particular with the new weapons. The new directional datalink also sounds very interesting.

    The F4 will get very good SA. Anything on improved sensor fusion? It is important in order to fully exploit the data generated by the improved sensors.

    The Typhoon and SH are going to struggle to match the capabilities of the F4 Rafale... could this have an impact on the outcome of some competitions, in e.g. India?

  9. #39
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    I think to be honest, the F4 is Dassaults attempt at an F35- an aircraft designed after the original Rafale and Typhoon specifications. Interesting that RCS reduction is being looked at, given that it is not required (according to some on this forum).

    These new weapons look eminently suitable for the internal bay of FCAS don't they? suggests France is serious about supporting its highly capable Rafale fleet with a UCAV for stickier situations. probably better off putting resources into FCAS rather than trying to reduce the RCS of Rafale.
    Last edited by mrmalaya; 21st June 2017 at 11:58.

  10. #40
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    RCS reduction is not "required" but, as for any fighter, is always desirable... that is why they speak about "potential RCS reduction".. basically, it is "once we've financed and done stuff that we need, we'll see about stuff that might be nice to have..."

  11. #41
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    like weapons pods which make the most of these compact carriage weapons perhaps...?

  12. #42
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    stackable up to 18 told me a DGA pilot there. And it is underr a Mirage 2000 belly. It is a plug and play weapon, management of the weapons is done by the pylonand it uses its selfguidance.

  13. #43
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    73 new Rafale F4 ?? Does that mean the procuring number of domestic Rafale will be increased (from 225 to 253 or so) ?? Or some of the new Rafale F4 will come from the upgrading Rafale F3R ??

  14. #44
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    As long as I recall, most of F4 induced imporvements ( Contact radio -> and its tenant IPDL ,enhanced radar,SPECTRA , SATCOM , DIRCM..etc ) had been all along on the roadmap. So it does not really sound like an attempt at an F35 like , but rather the continuation and persistence in the Rafale developement path. this including operating along UCAV .

    the same goes with RCS reduction improvement, those were ambitioned long ago in the MLU horizon.

    On weaponery side , in line with the weapon system concept, obviously guided precision and stand off solutions are being privildeged .The need for low collateral small amunition is ,of course an opportunity to develop solution coherent with UCAV too.

    I must admit to be puzzled with the BAT 120 NG initiative though .
    When intially announced ,I thought it was just an attempt at preserving the general physical shape and release mechanism of a BAT 120 , to produce a new weapon still . However the model looks 100 % identical to the original, with the same stabilizing winglets which I doubt were intended for maneouvring .
    Hence I am now wondering how such a dragged bomb ,initially intended for low level release in cluster for staturation effect can transform now into a laser guided( homing ?) precision low collateral bomb for high to mediam altitude release against static or mobile target . Are they substituting the chute with a thrust vectoring booster or something ?

  15. #45
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    73 new Rafale F4 ?? Does that mean the procuring number of domestic Rafale will be increased (from 225 to 253 or so) ?? Or some of the new Rafale F4 will come from the upgrading Rafale F3R ??
    http://www.ttu.fr/laeronavale-a-beso...lus-de-rafale/

    Not enough rafale M says the Navy, they want more...Perhaps that should lead to more new build airframes.

  16. #46
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    fact is, wherever France goes, they go.. basically, but they have much less airframes to rotate so their flight hours stack pretty rapidly (probably much more so than the air force)

  17. #47
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    I must admit to be puzzled with the BAT 120 NG initiative though .
    When intially announced ,I thought it was just an attempt at preserving the general physical shape and release mechanism of a BAT 120 , to produce a new weapon still . However the model looks 100 % identical to the original, with the same stabilizing winglets which I doubt were intended for maneouvring .
    Hence I am now wondering how such a dragged bomb ,initially intended for low level release in cluster for staturation effect can transform now into a laser guided( homing ?) precision low collateral bomb for high to mediam altitude release against static or mobile target . Are they substituting the chute with a thrust vectoring booster or something ?
    It looks like the front fins are new, as shown in the first pic. Movable I guess with the design keeping the same fixed rear fins.
    The bombs loaded under the Mirage look like they don't have the front fins.
    How can less be more? It's impossible. More is more.
    Yngwie Malmsteen

  18. #48
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    You are right. My mistake , the front fine effectivelly seem to be an addition .If this works, Hats off in bringing back to the new age at low cost this bomb .

  19. #49
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    73 new Rafale F4 ?? Does that mean the procuring number of domestic Rafale will be increased (from 225 to 253 or so) ?? Or some of the new Rafale F4 will come from the upgrading Rafale F3R ??
    No.
    AFAIK (Air Fan 450), the last 28 rafale of the tranche 4 and the 45* Rafale of the tranche 5 should be delivered with the new F4 standard hardware package (standard F4.2)
    The previous 147 Rafale F3R (152 -5 lost) will get a soft retrofit (standard F4.1)

    The F4.2 aircrafts will get hardware enhancements for the Radar, Spectra, OSF and the cockpit.

    * Note that this is not a confirmed number. Tranche 5 could also be 50 aircrafts to compensate for the 5 lost a/c...time will tell...
    Last edited by Kovy; 23rd June 2017 at 00:47.
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  20. #50
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    About BAT120 LG (the small bomb) wight 42 kgs. Explosive ordnance above 10 Kgs. Range above 5 Kms. submetric precision, with if not at full range, capability to hit vertically.

    Interesting data from this small picture (a jurnalist embedded in a test/ferry flight)
    assembly time 2 weeks. Several months of test : 3 on ground + ?
    max speed tested during the npicture with 3x1200L tanks : mach 1.7. G limit in this config, 5.5g
    auto follow "griuond" at sea : 100 feet, 450 kts.

  21. #51
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    "The" IFDL in the F-22 is classified so no, it's not the same.

    Also, the above pic says LPI but not "directional".
    AFM also confirms it will be directional, which is pretty obvious because I don't see how it could be otherwise if it claims to be LPI, but I digress.

    Loved the AFM story of the meteor which was re-targetted in flight & destroyed the target even with its warhead removed (direct hit).


    Edit: Also from AFM: "The capabilities of a single Rafale to locate and track a threat without resorting to traditional, but time-consuming methods of triangulation or of bearing measurements along the aircraft's flight path will be significantly improved".

    You can't improve on something that doesn't already exist right? Secondly there are other traditional ways. And third of a single Rafale. But they fly in pairs at the very least... Food for thought for those who claim geolocalization of threats is impossible except for F22 & F35.

    Nic
    Last edited by Nicolas10; 26th June 2017 at 19:36.

  22. #52
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    Interesting data from this small picture (a jurnalist embedded in a test/ferry flight)
    assembly time 2 weeks. Several months of test : 3 on ground + ?
    max speed tested during the npicture with 3x1200L tanks : mach 1.7. G limit in this config, 5.5g
    auto follow "griuond" at sea : 100 feet, 450 kts.
    Can you post the photo again, i can't see anything.

  23. #53
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    You can't improve on something that doesn't already exist right? Secondly there are other traditional ways. And third of a single Rafale. But they fly in pairs at the very least... Food for thought for those who claim geolocalization of threats is impossible except for F22 & F35.
    And who are those folks? Geolocation capabilities exist in modern digital EW suits on upgraded teens as well.
    Old radar types never die; they just phased array

  24. #54
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    My bad I forgot the teens.

    edit: BTW the post was aimed at the guys who always try to discredit Rafale. As evidenced in this very page, when someone mentioned directional LPI datalinks, some US guy was quick to point out that on that slide there was no mention of directional. Always talking the Rafale down, which means we always have to come up with debunking or proofs of whatever the Rafale can do, whereas naysayers can always spout their drivel without any supporting information.

    Thank God this time there was the AFM article that confirmed the directionability of the datalink.

    Nic
    Last edited by Nicolas10; 27th June 2017 at 16:17.

  25. #55
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    @Nic

    To be fair, the picture itself states LPI, not directional and if someone hasn't read the AFM article or others pointing this out then it is justified to point out that LPI isn't automatically directional.

  26. #56
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    Can you post the photo again, i can't see anything.
    By "picture" he meant this video starting at 6'40:
    https://www.facebook.com/PaxAquitani...9638933079392/
    Last edited by Kovy; 28th June 2017 at 10:43.
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  27. #57
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    By "picture" he meant this video starting at 6'40:
    Would you mind write down what he wrote in French?

  28. #58
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    To be fair, the picture itself states LPI, not directional and if someone hasn't read the AFM article or others pointing this out then it is justified to point out that LPI isn't automatically directional.
    And to be fair to the poster who said it was directional (and who didn't say that the picture meant directional datalink, but he probably knew it from reading it somewhere, or maybe even just by the logical deduction that LPI = directional)...

    When you don't know you are allowed to shup up, instead of contradicting someone for saying something while having no clue. Not saying that for you but for the poster who was quick to point out the pic never mentionned "directional directly".

    Nic

  29. #59
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    Nic

    LPI isn't automatically directional and questioning raw statements is something everyone of us does and if he is just curious where a statement originates from.

    Just my 2ct on this one.

    In general I think the AdA/MN and Dassault are setting the right priorities. The evolution path looks well thought through and they are focusing on those aspects that appear particularly relevant for me.

    As far as rapid singleship geo-localization is concerned, I can immediately think of two viable techniques here:
    1) Cue the radar or LDP and let them do the ranging
    2) As a completely passive method use ownship PP, HDG, ATT target LoS and terrain elevation data, that's all it needs.

    I suppose option 2 is a particularly likely approach.

  30. #60
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    Would you mind write down what he wrote in French?
    What Haloween said there :
    http://forum.keypublishing.com/showt...63#post2397763

    "We are at mach 0.9.. 0.95 going supersonic....top... we are supernonic... let's check the fuel... the fuel flow is quite high, about 300-350 Kg/min...
    Now we are at mach 1.7... the plane is a little bit heavier than usual (ie slower to maneuver) but I can bank left or right, pitch up and down... can do a roll while remaining supersonic... It can be piloted very well in almost the whole flight envelope ...
    This is the type of tests we do to validate the plane during a flight trial.
    Now we climb down a little bit... I set down to 100 feet and the plane will go to 100 ft by itself.... Voila... [backseater : "This is crazy !!!"] ...now we are at 100 feet and 450 knots, ground speed...[backseater : "This is crazy..."]... So, we were in what we call - radar automatic terrain following -

    After the A350

    Top, [rolling] ... I go to the hard limit but in this configuration we are protected for G-load at 5.5 g so if I pull the stick like a bull I can't go over that.
    Let's do a high G combat barrel roll... [backseater : AYYYYE-YAI-YAI-YAI-YAI-whoooaaa]"

    Last edited by Kovy; 28th June 2017 at 23:03.
    The Rafale international forum :
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    Rafale news blog :
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