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Thread: Finnish fighter replacement revisited

  1. #61
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    8% preferred an indigenous design
    Just goes to show how ignorant and gullible the readers are.
    "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

  2. #62
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    Polish indigenous aviation industry is also driven underground; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVnGF8XbgcA
    If it looks good, it will fly good !
    -Bill Lear & Marcel Dassault


    http://max3fan.blogspot.com/

  3. #63
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    That is not "driven underground", but "delusional"
    "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

  4. #64
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    Well there seems to be different opinions about it. Painting an aeroplane black does not necessarily make an aeroplane stealth..that is for sure. But the lifting fuselage and the Mark Drela kinda approch to economy is interesting.
    If it looks good, it will fly good !
    -Bill Lear & Marcel Dassault


    http://max3fan.blogspot.com/

  5. #65
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    That thing looks like an SR-71 had it's way with a BD-5 and then was drawn by a caricature artist. It was supposed to combine STOL, lightweight, but also armored... all while being so small that one wonders where the fuel was supposed to be stored.

    Me thinks the designer went to work for Iran on the Qaher-313 after the Skorpion was canceled.
    "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

  6. #66
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    Fuel may be in the lifting fuselage.

    It worx in Kerbal so it must be valid; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPp4amk4pXw
    Last edited by topspeed; 8th May 2018 at 07:01.
    If it looks good, it will fly good !
    -Bill Lear & Marcel Dassault


    http://max3fan.blogspot.com/

  7. #67
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    Well, that explains how they designed it... and why it was eventually canceled (somebody sobered up).
    "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

  8. #68
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    They would have gotten better bang for the buck if they'd chosen 4 PBS TJ100 engines inside the lifting fuselage..like all other fighters have'em..inside.

    http://www.pbsvb.com/customer-indust...urbojet-engine

    Those engines generate together as much thrust as the Jumo 004 but weigh just 1/10th.
    If it looks good, it will fly good !
    -Bill Lear & Marcel Dassault


    http://max3fan.blogspot.com/

  9. #69
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    I'll tell you the same thing I did years ago when you were pushing your micro-fighter idea... If it was viable and cheap then "someone" would have done it already.
    Last edited by SpudmanWP; 8th May 2018 at 17:26.
    "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

  10. #70
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    I think I did hear that. Anyway I am working on the smallest jet ...ever. Still pretty huge load carrying beast. This works as a test bed for my space aeroplane. I just have to do everything to get the loaded weight vs empty weigh ratio beyond 4:1. It won't even have jet engines in a model ( 1/ 4 ). I "just" have to supercede every known aeroplane aspect ( weight, aerodynamics, material, construction etc ) by 10-20% to reach this goal.
    If it looks good, it will fly good !
    -Bill Lear & Marcel Dassault


    http://max3fan.blogspot.com/

  11. #71
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    Finland hasn't had domestic fighter project since 1945. In the '70s it was considered designing a jet trainer to replace Fouga Magisters, but Vinka project showed that military aircraft design capability in the country was eroded too much and getting it back would be too costly in time and money.

  12. #72
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    The HX program is evolving in an unexpected manner in the way it is treated by media outlet, notably Helsingin Sanomat who mentions that the furnisher's security policy will be a factor in the procurement choice.

    HS (or Yle) also made a comment such as "FinAF may have to reconsider its partnership with US in the future".

    while such comment sound bold, they are not completely unreasonable. Acquiring F-35 would imply quite significant changes in Finland security policy (negative ones in my opinion) and I don't know if they would be ready for such.

  13. #73
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    The importance of what the Finnish media says cannot be understated. There are hardly any journalists in Finland who have experience in defence matters, let alone military aviation. What they're mostly writing is based uninformed second hand sources on performance and cost and are speculative think pieces about implications to defence policies. They're opinion pieces, not news reports and they'll likely have zero effect on the procurement decision.

  14. #74
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    Given that the people's opinion is formed by the news that they are presented then what you said makes perfect sense when "8% preferred an indigenous design".
    "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

  15. #75
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    Yama is correct..there is not even a operator that is able to deliver an aeroplane....2 ventures are mingled in the battle but seem to have almost no sales..prototypes only.
    If it looks good, it will fly good !
    -Bill Lear & Marcel Dassault


    http://max3fan.blogspot.com/

  16. #76
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    Acquiring F-35 would imply quite significant changes in Finland security policy (negative ones in my opinion) and I don't know if they would be ready for such.
    The Ilmavoimat combat force is entirely composed of US F/A-18C/D´s for more than two decades, the munitions of those jets are entirely american. I fail to see in what way the acquisition of another American jet to replace the Hornet would impact Finland "security policy".

  17. #77
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    The Ilmavoimat combat force is entirely composed of US F/A-18C/D´s for more than two decades, the munitions of those jets are entirely american. I fail to see in what way the acquisition of another American jet to replace the Hornet would impact Finland "security policy".
    ALIS...

  18. #78
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    Finland has also taken the lead of part of the C/D user community in software mods for those retaining the old 1553 set of processor (if my mem stands right).

    Significantly, their recent upgrade does not lack any of the prime assets in weapon capability branded as being what's make a good 4th+ gen fighter.



    Notice the fully loaded high alt/high alpha short sequence at the end.

    Here is the Aviationist take on the subject
    Last edited by TomcatViP; 9th May 2018 at 11:33.

  19. #79
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    That thing looks like an SR-71 had it's way with a BD-5 and then was drawn by a caricature artist. It was supposed to combine STOL, lightweight, but also armored... all while being so small that one wonders where the fuel was supposed to be stored.

    Me thinks the designer went to work for Iran on the Qaher-313 after the Skorpion was canceled.
    Unlike the Qaher-313, the Skorpion was a serious design, think of Burt Rutans ARES.
    The Polish Air Force made a tender for a small battlefield suport aircraft, it would be a subsonic, short range, STOL design, main job would be CAS and recon, two design teams answered, PZL with multiple iterations of the "SKorpion", the initial versions were equiped with a pair of turboprops, and the Instytut Lotnictwa (IL) Kobra 2000. Lack of funds stopped the competition.
    (you can see the design of the Kobra in this video, from minute ten onward)

    By the late eighties, beggining of the nineties there was no end of small battlefield suport designs, Burt Rutans ARES, BAE SABA, Aeroprogress T720, Vought ATLAS, Skorpion, etc, not one entered front line service.

    Cheers
    Last edited by Sintra; 9th May 2018 at 11:48.

  20. #80
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    ALIS...
    In what particular way would the use of ALIS influence the security policies of a country that as of today has an air force in wich its entire armed combat cabability is american, not just the aircrafts, but every single munition or system?

  21. #81
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    Acquiring F-35 would imply quite significant changes in Finland security policy (negative ones in my opinion) and I don't know if they would be ready for such.
    Finland already made those changes in the early 90's, when they bought Hornets. They later were among the first and only nations to be granted export permit for JASSM.

    US is, and has been for a long time the primary partner in Finnish defence policy, although the co-operation with Sweden is also increasing. Finland isn't a NATO member and will not be in foreseeable future, but is instead pursuing closer bilateral relations and is increasingly more aligned with the US.

    For this reason alone, I see the F-35 or F/A-18 as the leading candidates, with F-35 in the lead. If F-35 isn't suitable because of costs, risk levels, operational requirements or anything else, F/A-18 is the runner-up because of savings and ease of intergration due to commonality with existing infrastructure, operations and training and because of joint capabilities made possible by Growler.

    Rafale and Eurofighter do stand a credible chance, because of potential of strategic defence partnership with France or UK and because they're well suited for the requirements, and for a smaller (non-aligned) airforce that operates a single fighter type due to their platform flexibility.

    I see Gripen as being the least likely choice. It's probably the least expensive choice in life-cycle costs, but there has been strong signalling that the acquisition will be based first and foremost on performance metrics, where Gripen will be trailing the other candidates. Sweden and Finland have a mutually beneficial defence partnership that will continue to grow, but it can do so without the boost provided by an acquisition of this scale.
    Last edited by pesko; 9th May 2018 at 12:38.

  22. #82
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    ALIS is also a missino preparation system, fully controlable by the USA. Finland claim to be a neutral control.Every combat capability american?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...e_Finnish_Army

    probablu not up to date, still good page as an example...

  23. #83
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    ALIS is also a missino preparation system, fully controlable by the USA. Finland claim to be a neutral control.Every combat capability american
    No, first off no one outside of Lockheed has access to the full coding of ALIS, not the USAF, not the USN, not DoD.
    Second, Finland would have it's own CPE for for Finland specific mission data and diagnostics. Just like every other operator.
    Third, Even if the US cut off the Finnish CPE from the ALOU, it would not impact combat capability immediately. Updates and maintenance diagnostics would be impacted. Worst case scenario, maintenance would have to be tracked like legacy fighters and there would be no system updates or new mission data files (provided Finland did not have capability to create their own).

    These concerns, largely unfounded to begin with, have been addressed:
    https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...-conce-430823/


    What other Bogyman arguments do you have?
    Last edited by FBW; 9th May 2018 at 13:13.

  24. #84
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    pesko !

    I am for the Gripen. It can make so much faster sorties from a highway strip...and fully able to use AMRAAM, Sidewinders and JASSM.
    If it looks good, it will fly good !
    -Bill Lear & Marcel Dassault


    http://max3fan.blogspot.com/

  25. #85
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    all those capabilities are already fielded with their F/A-18. I am not sure that Finnish mod has put an RFP that can be simply resumed to a quest for yet another SLEP contractor. They are on the run for new capabilities. So, even if Swedish defense sector offer plenty of opportunity in advanced systems, I do agree with Pesko that their line here is quite thin.
    Last edited by TomcatViP; 9th May 2018 at 13:17.

  26. #86
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    These concerns, largely unfounded to begin with, have been addressed:
    https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...-conce-430823/
    What i read is "could", "begins studying options", etc. Nothing assertive.
    Egypt already couldn't use its F-16 for missions above Lybia due to USA not delivering MDFs (private info). So it is fairly natural that independant countries worry, isn't it?

  27. #87
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    Finland has absolute no concerns with ALIS or whatever points Hallow makes in the future (private info)
    Old radar types never die; they just phased array

  28. #88
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    I am not sure that Finnish mod has put an RFP that can be simply resumed to a quest for yet another SLEP contractor. They are on the run for new capabilities.
    Yes, they have outruled SLEP as too expensive and lacking in capabilities. By F/A-18 I mean E/F Super Hornets, which I see as the runner-up should F-35 for whatever reason not make it.

    I am for the Gripen. It can make so much faster sorties from a highway strip...and fully able to use AMRAAM, Sidewinders and JASSM.
    I haven't seen any evidence that Gripen can sustain any greater sortie generation rates for similar loadouts and missions than the other candidates, and it has worse endurance under realistic weapons load and a lower weapons capability that lead to lower mission effectiveness. Super Hornet, Rafale and Eurofighter have similiar STOL capabilities, and it's not really that much of an issue for F-35, as the FiAF doesn't operate from 800 meter highway strips like SwAF used to, but from much longer ones.

    JASSM isn't integrated for Gripen and neither is any other cruise missile in full capacity. Besides that, I don't think the reuse of weapons is a big issue. NASAMS batteries can take over the A2A stock as they don't have dedicated missiles and Hornets will be around until the end of planned lifetime for JASSMs and many of the other weapon systems. It's of course a plus if JASSMs can be used by the new plane, but that will require US approval and support in any case.

    Finland has absolute no concerns with ALIS or whatever points Hallow makes in the future (private info)
    Well, Finland is independent in name only. They are already heavily integrated and partly dependant on US & NATO systems. I don't think ALIS is an issue, but independent depot capability and sufficient spares storage would definitely be in their interest.
    Last edited by pesko; 9th May 2018 at 14:00.

  29. #89
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    To clarify: FAF has minimum requirements for 'maintenance security', ie. ability to maintain the planes in times of crisis. It is not explicitly told what those minimum criterias are, but basically FAF expects to have ability to independently operate the plane for at least some time without outside support. If the supplier can't guarantee this, it is out of the contest. Same minimum criteria applies for acquisition and supports costs, and industry co-operation. Ie. if the plane is too expensive or manufacturer unwilling to co-operate with domestic aviation industry, it is out.

    In regards to F-35, it likely means that Finland is looking forward for somewhat similar deal what Israel has.

  30. #90
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    Finland is nowhere close to Israel when it comes to ties and partnerships with US.

    I frankly consider maintenance security & independancy to be well jeopardized with F-35: the implications are entirely different than with the current legacy Hornet fleet (which are largely serviced by Patria/Millog...) namely with ALIS and the maintenance hubs, which will be in Europe but outside of Finland, implying significantly decreased control on med-high level servicing. Works for NATO and EPAF.. but Finland? Skeptical.

    Most of the other contenders have better cards than LM on this topic. Same for industry cooperation. Finland will be a (late) dwarf in the F-35 program. It will have much better opportunities with BAE/Dassault/Saab (probably Boeing too).
    Last edited by EC 5/25 Corsair; 9th May 2018 at 15:16.

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