Key.Aero Network
Register Free

Page 11 of 14 FirstFirst ... 7891011121314 LastLast
Results 301 to 330 of 414

Thread: WWII Flights To Lisbon

  1. #301
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    604
    Somewhere on this site, in another thread, I mentioned that some U.S. newspapers in WWII gave details of the air mail services, thus providing information about transoceanic flights in general and about flights into and out of Lisbon in particular.

    Here is part of one such report from mid-December 1940. It's in two images and gives details of Pan Am's Clipper services. Clicking on the images should make them larger/more legible:
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	1940_12_16_NYT_Air Mail services_01.JPG 
Views:	11 
Size:	203.7 KB 
ID:	258680   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	1940_12_16_NYT_Air Mail services_02.JPG 
Views:	9 
Size:	70.3 KB 
ID:	258681  
    Last edited by ianwoodward9; 3rd February 2018 at 00:43.

  2. #302
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    604
    There are numerous such reports as those above concerning transoceanic air services through virtually all of 1940. A researcher with the inclination and the motivation could probably reconstruct the movement details of individual Clippers that year without too much difficulty. It would just take time really.

    So far, I have not located any such reports from 1941 on. They may be there but, if so, I haven't found them.

    There may, however, be similar reports in other sources, such as newspapers in Bermuda or in Lisbon. I'm not sure if there was an English language newspaper in Lisbon but, if there was, that would be the place to start.

    These listings are often found in or near the business and financial pages, sometimes with details of linked services to other countries or overseas cities. The ones I've seen do not mention Pan Am specifically but it is worth remembering that some of their connecting services were flown under the Panagra banner.

    Finally, I think it was in 1940 that a brand new "Airlines Terminal" building was opened in Manhattan (across the street from Grand Central Station) from which buses ran out to La Guardia. This was used by a number of U.S. airlines, not just the ones operating international services, perhaps providing more places to look for services connecting to the transatlantic services..

  3. #303
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    604
    I forgot to mention that it is interesting to see, as just one example of the sort of detail contained in these reports, that ATLANTIC CLIPPER and DIXIE CLIPPER were due at La Guardia at the same time (1.45 pm) on on the same day (17 December 1940).

    If you then look at the "In Transit" section, you can see that they left New York two days apart but were delayed at Bermuda, one for a longer period than the other. No reason is given for the delay but, since both were affected, presumably weather-related. They then both left Bermuda on the same day, after which their movements were identical, as to the days of travel. Given the same arrival time back in New York, is it possible that, from Bermuda onwards, they flew more or less together for the rest of the time?

    It is also interesting that the newspaper must have been checking with the airline to get up-to-date information.

    Well, I find these things interesting, anyway.

  4. #304
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    1,533
    Ian.....The aerophilatelic historian John Wilson has made available a lot of his researches on wartime Pan American flights as PDFs at https://www.wasc.org.uk/WASC4_addl_pubs.html and has written a series of articles in Airpost Journal again as PDFs (especially 2016-2017) http://www.americanairmailsociety.or...t_journal.html ....September 2016 onwards is of particular interest but unfortunately September to November won't download , December onwards will...years of reading there!

  5. #305
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    604
    Thanks, longshot, for the various links, all new to me. The output of aero-philatelists is always impressive. I had a quick read-through of John Wilson's introduction and an even quicker look at one of the chapters dealing with a specific Pan Am route. The Pan Am archive yielded a veritable treasure trove of information. Wilson restricted his researches to the war years which, for Pan Am, meant December 1941 to October 1945.

    The newspaper information to which I referred was about transatlantic services in 1940. I have since located a newspaper report that the first publicly announced departure since December 1941 was an AEA flight to Foynes on 8 June 1945. I would therefore have thought that there would have been newspaper reports for most of 1941 similar to those for 1940. There probably are but I haven't them yet.

    By combining and cross-checking various contemporary newspaper reports, the output of John Wilson's researches in Pan Am's archives and the Foynes logs (perhaps other contemporary sources, too), it should be possible to produce a pretty definitive account of those transatlantic flying boat services.

    Has anyone ever checked Irish newspapers of the WWII period for relevant information? Maybe they'll also have something about the BOAC connecting services to the UK, too. Were Irish newspapers under censorship at that time, do we know?
    Last edited by ianwoodward9; 4th February 2018 at 10:55.

  6. #306
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    604
    I think that, earlier, I posted that clip of Wendell Willkie arriving by Clipper at Lisbon. One of the people accompanying him was John Cowles, the president of The Minnesota Star Journal, who posted a number of reports that were syndicated (that is, appeared in other newspapers, too). One of his reports concerned the difficulties of Americans in Britain who were unable to secure passage back to the U.S.A. Apparently, the terms of the American Neutrality Act hindered their efforts.

    In this report, published in early March 1941, he commented on the KLM service from Britain to Lisbon:
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by ianwoodward9; 4th February 2018 at 18:56.

  7. #307
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    1,533
    Weird that John Cowles got it completely reversed...the Whitchurch to Lisbon service was officially run by the British national airline but was actually a 100% KLM operation , only the exterior of the aircraft had British camouflage and markings

  8. #308
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    604
    The use of the adverb "theoretically" did cause a bit of confusion in my mind, too, and, to a lesser extent, the later use of the word 'by' in the same paragraph.

    I don't think Cowles was commenting on who ran the Lisbon service so much as its availability to non-official passengers. His article was about Americans 'stuck' in Britain, anxious to get back to the States but constricted by the terms of American Neutrality Act and by the limited number of available options. I took it that he used 'theoretically' in the sense that, in 'theory', anyone could book a seat on the Lisbon Run but, in 'practice', it was difficult - impossible even - without specific prior approval by the British Government.

    And, of course, KLM could not have run the Lisbon service without the agreement of Britain and, to that extent, it was a service 'by' the British government. I would have preferred him to have used "for" in place of "by" but, in itself, it was no big deal. A wise person once advised me that, when writing factual pieces, 'avoid adverbs' and, if John Cowles had followed that maxim and omitted 'theoretically', I doubt the "by'/'for' discrepancy would have struck me.

    I don't know the ins and outs of these things but I presume that the use of British registration, camouflage and markings was to give the outward appearance (pretence?) of 'Britishness' presumably to fulfill some internationally-recognised requirement in time of war. On the Stockholm Run, the Norwegian crews were required to wear BOAC uniforms and to carry British passports. I'm not sure of the situation on the Lisbon Run. Did the KLM crews continue to wear KLM uniforms and did they carry Dutch passports?
    Last edited by ianwoodward9; 5th February 2018 at 14:26.

  9. #309
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    604
    Reading some of the aero-philately material prompted me to scan this cover I picked up in a local shop a while back It's not exactly neat or smart but it was only a couple of quid and seemed worth it for something that looks as though it was carried on one of the Clippers.

    The stamps are from Chile, the postmark is Valparaiso and the date of posting is "18 JUL 42". Whoever typed the address added the top line: "VIA PANAGRA NORTH ATLANTIC SERVICE" by the looks of it, though an expert might suggest that a different typewriter was used. I presume the airline or the postal authorities added the "VIA PANAGRA" handstamp. Unfortunately, there are no other postal markings, front or back, to show transit points, where it was checked by the censor or when it might have arrived in the UK.

    .
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  10. #310
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    604
    The following newspaper clipping is from an article about the first Clipper flight from Europe following the USA's entry into WWII. I have missed out the comments of Henry J. Taylor about his two months in Europe and some things about some other passengers, preferring to concentrate on the aviation aspects, which are more relevant to this forum.

    As you can read, it just so happened that this was the 500th transatlantic Clipper flight, so there are some interesting stats in the final paragraph (on the right). Unsurprisingly, the majority of those flights were to and from Lisbon.

    It is perhaps noteworthy that the newspaper believed that mail had been taken off the flight to allow more passengers to travel. I'm sure that I have read somewhere that hostilities in Europe increased the demand for transatlantic flights back to the USA, thereby providing Pam Am with a financial cushion it had not experienced in the previous time period.

    The date of the flight was 15 December 1941 and the stats therefore cover the period prior to John Wilson's excellent research to whiich longshot directed us in a previous post [#304].
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by ianwoodward9; 5th February 2018 at 14:25.

  11. #311
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    604
    This is just to confirm that I did manage to locate some Clipper services details for 1941, as per the 1940 newspaper reports (see Post #301 above).

  12. #312
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    604
    The website of the flying boat museum in Ireland includes a brief sample of movements in and out of Foynes in WWII. It gives the details for September 1943 taken from the Habourmaster's records:
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Foynes Log_Sept 1943_01.JPG 
Views:	7 
Size:	82.3 KB 
ID:	258774   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Foynes Log_Sept 1943_02.JPG 
Views:	6 
Size:	78.7 KB 
ID:	258775  

  13. #313
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    604
    In November 1941, Henry J. Taylor (see Post # 310) spent two days in Gibraltar being shown around its defences. His report is mostly about that subject. He mentions that there are no airfields, "only one small landing place, only 250 yards long, with a narrow gravel runway, for the Spitfires and Hurricanes based there". He also refers to " an army of workmen finishing the great new seaplane base, bristling with America's famous Catalina flying boats and the Sunderlands".

    This was, of course, before Pearl Harbor, so he was not a 'belligerent' but he does not say by what means or by which route he got to Gibraltar. I wonder when he flew to Europe. If it were on a Clipper into Lisbon, how would he have got from Lisbon to Gibraltar in late 1941?

    EDIT WITH ADDITIONAL INFORMATION:

    Mr Taylor was apparently in Europe from 4 October 1941 to 15 December 1941. The places that he is known to have visited are Helsinki, Berlin, London, Vichy France and Madrid, as well as Gibraltar (and Lisbon, of course, for the flight home). Although I cannot be certain of his route to Europe, he said that, when he left Scotland, he was going out 'on a very thin limb', apparently referring to the difficulties of travel within Europe.

    This paragraph is mere supposition on my part but Mr Taylor's Helsinki report was published in early November 1941. Bearing in mind his comment cited in the previous paragraph, it is possible that he got there via Stockholm on a flight from Leuchars. At that time (say, the second half of October 1941), there were just four aircraft operating the route - two ex-RAF BOAC Hudsons (G-AGDC and G-AGDF) and two Norwegian-owned BOAC Lodestars (G-AGDD and G-AGDE). Hudson 'GDF made its first trip to Stockholm on 18 October 1941. There was, I believe, a daily service from Stockholm to Helsinki.

    There still remains the question of how Mr Taylor got into Gibraltar and out again after his 2-day visit. Any thoughts or insights, anybody?
    Last edited by ianwoodward9; 9th February 2018 at 16:02.

  14. #314
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Leavesden
    Posts
    517
    BOAC flew a C-Class service Poole-Lisbon-Gibraltar-Malta-Cairo, starting on 12 October 1941. Clare, Champion and Cathay flew the route regularly, suplimented by Catalinas G-AGBJ Guba and G-AGDA. The C-Class were withdrawn from the route in February 1942.

  15. #315
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    604
    Thank you, lazy8, for the information. I thought it must be something like that.

    A border crossing from Spain seemed improbable and, given Mr Taylor's comments about the landing strip and about the flying boats in the harbour, the latter seemed the more likely means of getting there. It was good to have you confirm that BOAC had a 'service' operating to Gibraltar at that time.

  16. #316
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    604
    A slight swerve here. I came across this image on-line.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  17. #317
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    1,533
    That first cover to Lisbon is a nice example of the first official British Overseas Airways Corporation logo which only appeared on a few aircraft and leaflets before being abandoned for a plain Speedbird
    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/3a/09...58907d2306.jpg
    and p143 in https://www.aerosociety.com/media/48...its-legacy.pdf
    http://www.aussieairliners.org/short.../2545.256l.jpg
    https://media.iwm.org.uk/ciim5/55/494/large_000000.jpg
    Last edited by longshot; 10th February 2018 at 01:10.

  18. #318
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    604
    Thanks, longshot. I have seen photographs of Lodestar G-AGIL (the aircraft in the last of the links in your post) in other guises.

    One photo shows G-AGIL camouflaged, with a Speedbird on the nose, which seems to have been pretty much the standard for BOAC's camouflaged aircraft (though I've yet to see a photograph of BOAC Lodestar G-AGDD displaying a Speedbird).

    Another shows G-AGIL in bare metal finish with what appears to be yet another BOAC logo. The photo is not absolutely clear but it looks a bit different to me.

    The two photos to which I refer are below but I don't know the chronological sequence of the three images of G-AGIL (the two below and the one posted by longshot).
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	BOAC_Lodestar_G-AGIL_front.JPG 
Views:	5 
Size:	76.4 KB 
ID:	258893   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	BOAC_Lodestar_G-AGIL_Lake Nyasa.JPG 
Views:	6 
Size:	38.3 KB 
ID:	258894  

  19. #319
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Leavesden
    Posts
    517
    Ian, the sequence is this:
    Camouflage first. No records have survived of when camouflage was removed from G-AGIL, but lets say any time from mid-1944 onwards, and certainly some time in 1945. The Orange Globe livery in the IWM photo is second. Finally, the bare metal scheme above is the 1947 BOAC livery, and could actually have been applied from late 1946. AGIL was returned to the RAF on 12 November 1947.

  20. #320
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    604
    Thank you once again, lazy8, for your help.

    I had thought it likely that the camouflage came first (most of the Lodestars used on the Stockholm run were painted that way at the factory - G-AGDD was the exception, camouflaged at Dorval during delivery) but I wasn't absolutely sure about those used in the Middle East and Africa.

    I found this colour image of the 'Orange Globe' logo on-line. It's not a photograph but there seem to be precious few colour photos of BOAC aircraft in WWII.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  21. #321
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    604
    Henry J Taylor again.

    He flew by Clipper to Lisbon, from where he went on a BOAC/KLM flight to Bristol (not stopping at Oporto en route, incidentally). Travel within the UK was by train. He flew from Leuchars to Stockholm and from there to Helsinki in a "Swedish plane" described as "small, brilliant orange", with its country's name in large letters along the fuselage. He returned to Stockholm and got into Germany. From Berlin, he took a Lufthansa flight in a Ju.90 for Lisbon via Stuttgart and Lyon. He left it at Lyon, taking "a little French plane" to Vichy. I haven't quite absorbed the next stage of his trip but I can confirm, somewhat to my surprise, that he crossed into and out of Gibraltar by the land border. He got back to Lisbon from Malaga via Madrid but then returned to Bristol on the BOAC/KLM service (they did stop in Oporto this time). After this, he returned to Lisbon the same way for the Clipper home. The return transatlantic journey, though, was changed to the southern route
    Last edited by ianwoodward9; 14th February 2018 at 19:01.

  22. #322
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    1,533
    Ian, Adrian...What actual evidence is there that the globe on the BOAC logo as applied to aircraft was orange?..From the orthochromatic photo of G-AFPZ Clifton I would say the globe is blue matching the lower stripe of the red white blue bands...if the globe was orange it would look more like the top band (red & orange look dark grey or black with ortho film) . I am not a fan of aircraft 'profiles' and not much of aviation'art'

  23. #323
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    604
    It is interesting that you raised that question, longshot. Until I found that image of the "orange Globe" on-line, I had it in my mind that the 'globe' was blue, though a somewhat paler shade than your photo analysis would suggest - but I have no idea where I got that notion.

    I would have thought, though, that the colour of the 'globe' would have to have been somewhat lighter than the colour used for the Speedbird symbol and the words.

    Presumably, there was a BOAC document/instruction specifying the colour to be used.
    Last edited by ianwoodward9; 13th February 2018 at 12:20.

  24. #324
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    604
    Sorry to bang on about Henry Taylor again but he wrote a book about his European travels, published in May 1942, and there are precious few contemporary reports of civilian air travel in Europe in WWII. The book is entitled "Time Runs Out" and I have now had the chance to start reading it but it's the U.K. edition which lacks the map that spells out his itinerary - you need the U.S. edition for that - so the dating that follows may be imprecise.

    EDIT:

    I thought I had worked out the dating from my quick scan but, now, I'm not so sure, so I'll start again. I should add that I have several time-consuming activities coming up, so this may take longer than I might otherwise have hoped.

    Meanwhile, the book presents some parallels between what was happening in Europe in the 1920s and 1930s, as described by an economist who had previously visited Europe and had significant contacts there, and some elements of the current political scene.
    Last edited by ianwoodward9; 14th February 2018 at 18:35.

  25. #325
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    604
    Ah, the perils of skip-reading! I’ve had to amend my intended post, as there was a delay on Mr Taylor's outbound Clipper journey to Lisbon.

    Taylor had first planned to travel as far as Finland, visiting Portugal, Sweden, Germany, Switzerland, France and Spain (not Britain). He had arranged visas for five of the countries but, at noon on the day before the departure of his booked Clipper flight, the promised German visa was refused. He spent the afternoon getting a British visa, in the hope he could get to Stockholm (and on to Finland) via Britain. He left on his Clipper flight, as planned, on Saturday 4 October 1941. There was first a delay at Bermuda because of an engine problem. The Clipper left Bermuda at 17.00 on the Sunday but turned back because of the conditions at Horta. Twice during the week, Clippers left Bermuda but they went direct to Lisbon carrying mail only.

    Taylor eventually left Bermuda on “Friday night” (10 October 1941) and arrived in Lisbon the next day, sighting the Cape Roca lighthouse at 08.55. He spent time in Portugal, then on to Bristol, as described in an earlier post, and London. He was taken to Dover, at the Admiralty's invitation, early on a Saturday and, that night, took the sleeper to Edinburgh, arriving early on a Sunday morning. He spent the day in the city, next taking a troop train north at 20.15, getting to his destination station 'by midnight'. It therefore looks like he left Leuchars late that Sunday evening or in the early hours of Monday. He 'landed safely at Stockholm at sunrise', probably on Monday 20th October 1941.

    [It could all have been a week later, I suppose, but that seems less likely] LATER INSERT: In a later post, longshot has posted the text of a contemporary article about Mr Taylor's journey and this confirms that the flight from Leuchars was indeed a week later than I had supposed.

    Taylor writes of the aircraft that took him to Stockholm: "Its guns were dismantled, since we were heading for a neutral port", which surely means that it must have been a Hudson, not a Lodestar. If it was a Hudson, it could have been either G-AGDC or G-AGDF.

    According to Nils Mathisrud's book, G-AGDC had started to make the Stockholm Run in mid-July 1941 [about a month before the Lodestars] but the first arrival at Bromma of G-AGDF was not until Saturday, 18 October 1941, presumably in the early hours that morning. Not all return flights were immediate [crews often stayed over at a hotel in the city before going back] but let's assume G-AGDF did return promptly, leaving later on the same day as its arrival. Given night-time flying, it would have got back to Leuchars on the morning of Sunday, 19 October 1941.

    Assuming this happened, would G-AGDF, having arrived back from Sweden on the 19th October, have then left Leuchars very late the same day or very early on 20th, in the process carrying Taylor to Stockholm? Or is Mr Taylor's flight more likely to have been in G-AGDC?

    Thoughts, anybody?
    Last edited by ianwoodward9; 15th February 2018 at 15:48.

  26. #326
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    1,533
    There was a discussion on Seawings forum about the 1940 first BOAC logo and a contributor made a 'profile' drawing with a blue globe.http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l1...ps7c9662ae.jpg Might be shot down by the dreaded photobucket curse.

  27. #327
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    604
    Just to add a little background information on Henry Taylor's departure from New York to Lisbon in early October 1941.......

    September 1941 was a very dry month in the New York area (driest since 1884, they said) but, on 3 October 1941, the rains came down, accompanied by 'heavy fog', which closed in on La Guardia "shortly after noon". Outgoing flights were stopped from 1.20 pm and incoming flights were delayed by the generally bad weather in the NE region. 'Atlantic Clipper' from Bermuda had to turn back and was due to arrive at La Guardia at 1.45 pm the next day, 4 October. 'Yankee Clipper', which had left Lisbon on the 3rd, was due to arrive in New York around the same time.

    Mr Taylor says the plane carrying him took off 'in the morning' ... at eleven o'clock' arriving in Bermuda that afternoon (4 October 1941).

    A newspaper report advising mail flights that day says, under the "Outgoing" heading: "Oct. 4 - DIXIE CLIPPER , from La Guardia Field - Bermuda Oct 4, Horta 5 and Lisbon 5" and goes on to add, "Take off, 9:30 A.M.". This was presumably the Clipper flight that Mr Taylor took.

    Incidentally[1]: 'Atlantic Clipper' had left Lisbon on 29th September, arriving later that day at Horta, where it was delayed. It left on 2nd October arriving at Bermuda on 3rd October, where it was again delayed, for the reason given above, arriving in New York on 4th October, as also described above.


    Incidentally [2]: 'Atlantic Clipper' was next due to leave New York for Lisbon on Tuesday, 7th October and 'Yankee Clipper' for the same destination next on Thursday, 9th October, both departures scheduled for 9.30 am. At some point during the period of his delay in Bermuda, Mr Taylor mentions a Clipper service due there on Thursday.
    Last edited by ianwoodward9; 14th February 2018 at 18:34.

  28. #328
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Leavesden
    Posts
    517
    Ian,
    I've PM'ed you.
    Adrian C

    By the way, the BOAC Globe logo had an orange globe:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	BOAC Globe.jpg 
Views:	1 
Size:	1.81 MB 
ID:	258931

  29. #329
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    1,533
    Adrian...What's the source for the globe as painted on the BOAC aircraft being orange?

  30. #330
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Leavesden
    Posts
    517
    BOAC archives - I'm one of BA's archivists.
    To be fair, we've yet to find any direct evidence that the three or four aircraft painted with this scheme during wartime had an orange globe, as no painting instructions have survived. However, all the advertising and promotional material of the period, and on into the 1950s, which featured evolutions of the logo, show it in orange. We have no reason to believe otherwise.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

 

- Part of the    Network -

KEY AERO AVIATION NEWS

MAGAZINES

AVIATION FORUM

SHOP

 

WEBSITES