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Thread: Indian Air Force Thread 21

  1. #1261
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    There is no guarantee that exemption will be given and even if it is given there may be strings attached to it like Reduce Defence buying from Russia in certain percentage etc

    This is more like dictating other nations sovereign decision even though they may be friendly to US and Russia both like India but considering how US is treating even its close allies like EU on JCPA and Germany on Nord Stream , it seems more like US needs vassals not friends certainly a friendship not on equal term but on US terms.
    then India should buy Russian. but they should tone down their whining about Russia on every single defense related purchase. The Russians are getting tired of it.

  2. #1262
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    Any powerful radar will detect any low observable plane depending on power, mode, distance etc. Not a meanin ful article.

  3. #1263
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    Russian Su-30SM detect F-22 at 40+ km range in Syria, so i don't see a problem for Su-30MKI to detect J-20 as I doubt J-20 is as stealth as F-22.

  4. #1264
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    Russian Su-30SM detect F-22 at 40+ km range in Syria, so i don't see a problem for Su-30MKI to detect J-20 as I doubt J-20 is as stealth as F-22.
    Luneburg reflector.

  5. #1265
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    An article was written by an IDRW poster on the detection of J-20 by our Su-30 and appeared at that site. The article can be read here.

    http://idrw.org/did-indias-su-30s-we...alth-aircraft/

    Sputnik based their article on this idrw.org piece.
    Nothing breaking has been revealed in the Idrw piece. The author mentions the ACM'S statement that the J-20 isn't so stealthy and it can be detected by a Su-30 's radar at several kms.

    The author then infers that our MKI must have detected and tracked the J-20. But this statement hasn't been confirmed by any defense journos or the IAF. What the author is doing is spin a story and add his own thoughts to what the chief has said. And that's it.

    END OF STORY.

  6. #1266
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    Quote Originally Posted by Levsha View Post
    Luneburg reflector
    I would like to take this assumption into consideration, but then what interest would the US have to put F-22s in operation in Syria with a reflector ?? If the goal is not to stay stealthy, it would be more economical to send F-15C...

  7. #1267
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    If Trump thinks he can push us around like what he is doing with North Korea or some other countries, then hes in for a huge surprise soon. The harsh reality is no one in South Block gives a flying fart to Trump's views on Russia and his CAATSA act. We are going to proceed with those acquisitions and other programs in the defense sector that the MoD and Drdo is having with Russian entities and OEMs.

    Here's a recent article from Hindustan Times that nicely illustrates New Delhis mood regarding the CAATSA.

    https://www.hindustantimes.com/india...Kn1dPk8pO.html


    The Indo-Russian relationship was a stabilising factor in a fast changing regional and global order, persons familiar with the planning of the May 21 meeting between Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi and Russian President Vladimir Putin said on Thursday.

    Modi would be in the Black Sea resort of Sochi for a “four- six hour” informal summit, which would mostly be a series of one-to-ones with Putin, “an old friend and a trusted partner”, a source said.

    India’s defence purchases wouldn’t be dictated by another country such as the US, said the source on New Delhi’s view on the US sanctions on Russia impacting country’s defence purchases from Moscow.




    Russia continues to be India’s biggest arms supplier, though its share in Delhi’s weapon imports has dropped from 79% in 2008-12 to 62% in 2012-17, according to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute.

    India is purchasing five S-400 Triumf systems, an anti-aircraft missile array that can also intercept missiles, in an estimated $6 billion-deal that comes at a time when the Trump administration is planning more sanctions against Russia.

    Signed by President Donald Trump in August 2017, the Countering America’s Adversaries through Sanctions Act targets any country trading with Russia’s defence and intelligence sectors.

    Looking at the big picture, a second source said the meeting was not aimed at any one country or countries but the message was that the India-Russia relationship was a factor of stability.

    The meeting comes amid geopolitical shifts. Once close partners, India and Russia have grown a bit distant. While Russia’s ties with the US are worsening, it is getting close to China and also building a relationship with Pakistan, which is not lost on New Delhi.

    India had conveyed its concerns about Pakistan, which Russia understood.

    Another source said India’s ties with Russia were old and deep-rooted. “The relation is big, broader and strategic enough to address these differences,” the source said.

    Since the two leaders will meet for the annual bilateral summit later in the year, the informal meeting will have a limited bilateral agenda and would be a broad exchange of views on international issues.

    A Eurasian Economic Union, North-South corridor, Afghanistan, and Iran nuclear deal could figure in the talks, the source said.

    The two leaders could also discuss how India could benefit from Putin’s economic policies and a bigger role for Russia in the Modi government’s Make in India campaign.

    Several world leaders were set to meet Putin who was re-elected as the President in March, sources said. German chancellor Angela Merkel is to have an informal summit with the Russian leader.

    French President Emmanuel Macron and Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe, too, will be travelling to Russia soon.

    During NSA Ajit Doval's recent visit to Moscow he deliberated on measures to be adopted by both the countries to bypass the caatsa and ensure this act doesn't hamper the operational preparedness of the Russian origin platforms in the Indian inventory.


    Currently, India & Russia working on a roadmap to circumvent new US sanctions (CAATSA).

  8. #1268
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    Quote Originally Posted by archangelski View Post
    I would like to take this assumption into consideration, but then what interest would the US have to put F-22s in operation in Syria with a reflector ?? If the goal is not to stay stealthy, it would be more economical to send F-15C...
    Depends on rotation. F-22’s have been rotating through al dhafra (usually a package 4-6 aircraft. Flying deconflictiion missions, they need to be seen (or there would be no point).

    Whether they are carrying luneberg or eft is irrelevant. The AN/ALR-94 coupled with sig management software allow the F-22 to compare emitter strength, direction, with the aircraft’s signature from different angles. Fly an unstealthy flightpath and you can be detected. Considering they needed to let the Russians know they were there, they did.

  9. #1269
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    From Mr Raju Pandit on New Delhi's efforts to bypass the CAATSA.

    NEW DELHI: India and Russia, with proposed defence projects worth over $12 billion hanging in balance, are working on a road map to get around the new US sanctions regime that seeks to deter countries from buying Russian weapon systems.

    "There are ways to get around the new financial sanctions flowing out of the CAATSA (Countering America's Adversaries through Sanction Act) enacted by US Congress. Consultations are in progress at several levels with the Russian government to devise a road map for it," said a top government source on Monday.

    The Indian security establishment is quite upset at the US state department's move on April 6 to notify 39 Russian entities, including the state-controlled arms exporter Rosoboronexport, with which India does regular business. Any third party that conducts "significant transactions" with these 39 entities is liable for punitive sanctions under CAATSA.


    The move has already led Indian banks with "exposure to the US" to suspend payments and instalments to Russia, though US defence secretary Jim Mattis in recent days has argued for "national security waivers and relief" from CAATSA for countries like India.

    "On the one hand, the US wants India to be its closest strategic partner in Asia Pacific as a hedge against China. On the other, it is jeopardising our proposed acquisition of S-400 air defence missile systems from Russia as well as frigate, submarine and helicopter projects. It will also reinforce suspicions in India about the US not being a reliable longterm arms supplier," said another source.
    Though Russia has notched up military sales worth $65 billion to India since the early-1960s, the US has cornered a major chunk of the lucrative Indian arms market by bagging deals worth $15 billion just since 2007 and is also eyeing several new projects.
    India, of course, has consciously diversified its arms imports due to Russia's propensity to not stick to delivery schedules, jack up costs mid-way, create technology transfer hurdles and provide unreliable spares support.

    But it's equally true that India needs to maintain its huge inventory of Russian-origin weapon systems, which can be adversely impacted by US sanctions. It also recognizes that only Russia will help it with "strategic projects" like nuclear-powered submarines.

    India may have virtually rejected the mega joint production of the fifth-generation fighter aircraft called Sukhoi T-50 or PAK-FA with Russia, but several other critical defence projects are in the pipeline, as earlier reported by TOI.
    Negotiations for the $5.5 billion acquisition of five S-400 Triumf air defence missile systems, which can destroy hostile aircraft, stealth fighters, missiles and drones at ranges up to 400 km, for instance, are in the final stages now.

    Then, there are also the acquisition cases for four Grigorivich-class stealth frigates (around $4 billion) and joint production of 200 Kamov-226T light helicopters (about $1 billion) as well as the lease of a second nuclear-powered submarine after INS Chakra for around $1.5 billion.

  10. #1270
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBW View Post
    Depends on rotation. F-22’s have been rotating through al dhafra (usually a package 4-6 aircraft. Flying deconflictiion missions, they need to be seen (or there would be no point).

    Whether they are carrying luneberg or eft is irrelevant. The AN/ALR-94 coupled with sig management software allow the F-22 to compare emitter strength, direction, with the aircraft’s signature from different angles. Fly an unstealthy flightpath and you can be detected. Considering they needed to let the Russians know they were there, they did.
    Thanks FBW...but the question remains : why send F-22s that remain visible with Luneburg lens (even removable) to de-escalate the tension in the region if some of the F-15 would be just as visible, and send the F-22 only if increased stealth is needed.
    But I'll take your explanation ...

  11. #1271
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    Again it depends on what expeditionary airwing ( edit- expeditionary squadrons rotating through airwing) is rotating through SW Asia. Each has different component units. The air superiority squadrons (or parts of squadrons may have F-22’s or F-15C).on top of that, the US has been consistently rotating theater security packages of F-22 to al dhafra for years. There has been F-22s in theater consistently, no so for the F-15C. Just not enough air superiority squadrons to go around.
    Last edited by FBW; 20th May 2018 at 16:49.

  12. #1272
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    @ FBW,

    If the mission was indeed that of deconfliction, then why not send F-15C or F-15E?

    F-15E with CFT and F-15C with external fuel tanks have a greater time on station, endurance and then a higher magazine depth than the F-22 which would make them more suitable for this mission.

    Some F-22 without any Luneberg lens attached could have trailed or flown ahead with the F-15 so as to provide some degree of protection and air superiority in case things go south.

    There would be no reason to have a F-22 flying with Luneberg lens or eft inside Syrian airspace and be visible to every Russian and Syrian air defense and air space surveillance radars. The idea of visible Raptors is self defeating unless it's a show of force and here you say the Raptors were there for deconfliction.

  13. #1273
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    I just answered that. There are (were?) 10 expeditionary air wings. Each is made up of different components like: air superiority, strike aircraft (actual units or parts of units rotate in or out) They rotate through active, training, and rest cycles. If one is deployed to SW Asia, it may have F-22 or F-15C as an air superiority component, or none at all. They are tailored to the mission. In other words if an air superiority component is needed, it could come from an active or ANG F-15C squadron or F-22. It’s not a matter of “F-15C can be detected so send those”. It is what unit is scheduled for active deployment rotation. Here is some recent news about one of these rotations:

    https://www.dvidshub.net/news/273831/farewell-336th-efs

    F-22’s are rotating through Al Dhafra regularly for reasons unrelated to Syria. These theater security packages are basically a deterrent (read Iran). They are also used in Syria.

    To answer your other question, yes they have to be seen. You have several air forces operating over Syria in close proximity. Despite what you may read in here, US and Russia do communicate constantly about what assets are in the air above Syria, and where. The USAF doesn’t just deploy F-22’s when they need “stealth” they are deployed as an air superiority fighter.
    Edit- cleaned up a bit for accuracy. The current 332 AEW was reactivated to control units rotated through SW Asia during the recent Campaign against ISIS. It controls the units rotated through, there are no permanent air assets assigned.
    Last edited by FBW; 20th May 2018 at 16:48.

  14. #1274
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    I would like to take this assumption into consideration, but then what interest would the US have to put F-22s in operation in Syria with a reflector ?? If the goal is not to stay stealthy, it would be more economical to send F-15C...
    This is exactly how the charade of stealth invisibility will die. Anytime a stealth aircraft is alleged to have been spotted, the operator will just say that they had reflectors on. And most of the time, reflectors will be on. Just to keep the myth alive.

    And I don't mean that stealth is all a charade. What is a charade is the idea that stealth means invisibility. (unless your aircraft has X, Y and Z , you aren't invisible. By I am) Stealth is the science of making things appear smaller on radar than they are in real life. And this gives a stealth aircraft a marginal advantage in some situations.

    The J-20 was never supposed to be invisible. Neither is the F-22. So of course the su 30 seen it on radar. But I'd venture to guess that it wasn't as big on the radar as a Mig 31. That's all stealth is.

  15. #1275
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    K, KGB nice stealth rant. No one said any LO aircraft is invisible. As far as Syria, I don’t think there is definitive proof the F-22’s are flying with reflectors on or off for most of the deconfliction missions. They likely are carrying EFT most of the time considering distances to Al Dhafra to ease tanker burden. When I say irrelevant, it is because of the simple truth that mission planning is part of LO strategy. The aircraft’s threat library and AN/ALR-94 shows the pilot emitter strength and at what distances they can be detected (taking into account the angles the aircraft is presenting to the emitter aircraft). When Medo posts that Su-30Sm detected the F-22 at 40 km+, my first thought is “so”.
    One, I doubt that is official, why would Russia give information to US to determine the fidelity of the F-22 threat library on that radar. Two, what was the flight path of both aircraft? Three, if your emitting and only detecting the aircraft at 40km, that is terrible. Your signal can be detected at 5-6 times that range. An aircraft could alter flight path to avoid that 40 km cone of detection.

    F-22’s are being flown because they are in theater, the US isn’t hiding that they are operating over Syria. Of course they will be detected, but considering that the F-22’s intercepting Russian aircraft near Alaska are still carrying reflectors, odds are the US is protecting the F-22’s full RCS profile to Russian radars most of the time over Syria.

  16. #1276
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arihant View Post
    If the mission was indeed that of deconfliction, then why not send F-15C or F-15E?
    Because with the F-22 you have the option to remain hidden or be seen.
    Also, which F-15Cs? Lakenheath's single sqn. is pretty busy with NATO air policing etc, the only other active F-15C units are the ones from Kadena, Japan, i.e. far away, and required there.
    F-15E for air/air duties? No...

    Quote Originally Posted by Arihant View Post
    F-15E with CFT and F-15C with external fuel tanks have a greater time on station, endurance and then a higher magazine depth than the F-22 which would make them more suitable for this mission.
    More endurance/range, sure. Greater magazine depth: No.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arihant View Post
    Some F-22 without any Luneberg lens attached could have trailed or flown ahead with the F-15 so as to provide some degree of protection and air superiority in case things go south.
    So you'd have to deploy 2 sqns? Better use 1 F-22 in stealth mode, 1 in legacy mode.
    How can less be more? It's impossible. More is more.
    Yngwie Malmsteen

  17. #1277
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    @eagle

    F-22 sitac is probably much better than F15's

  18. #1278
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    Russian Su-30SM detect F-22 at 40+ km range in Syria, so i don't see a problem for Su-30MKI to detect J-20 as I doubt J-20 is as stealth as F-22.
    Luneburg reflector.
    I combat zone? I don't think it use this reflector in Syria to increase chance to be shot down by Syrian air defense. Also Su-30SM would detect it at far longer range with reflector and larger RCS, Bars is still quite capable long range radar.

  19. #1279
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    I think it was a matter of angle. From the front, no way in hell. From the sides, in a bank.... sure.
    "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

  20. #1280
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    Please take this discussion on the F-22 to some other thread. It is unrelated to the Indian Air Force.

  21. #1281
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    Today , a Brahmos missile whose service life has been extended was test fired successfully from ITR in Balasore. The missile's service life has been extended from 10 to 15 years.

    http://www.newindianexpress.com/nati...l-1817530.html



    HUBANESHWAR: India successfully conducted the first test of supersonic cruise missile BrahMos with life extension technology from a defence base off Odisha coast on Monday proving the efficacy and longevity of the system.
    A joint venture of India and Russia, the world-class BrahMos is the first weapon system whose life has been extended from 10 years to 15 years. The technology will now make missile systems durable.

    As part of service life extension programme, defence sources said, the missile was fired from a static inclined launcher positioned at Chandipur-based launching complex – III of the Integrated Test Range (ITR) at about 10.40 am.
    Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman has congratulated the Team BrahMos and the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) for successful flight testing of the missile to validate life extension technology developed for the first time in India.

    "The successful test will result in huge savings of replacement cost of missiles held in the inventory of Indian Armed Forces," the Defence Minister tweeted.
    All telemetry and tracking stations including naval ships near terminal point have confirmed the mission success. “The precision strike missile flew in its designated trajectory and the key components functioned perfectly. It has once again proved its mettle with the new technology,” said a defence official.
    The highly versatile BrahMos has emerged as the ultimate weapon of choice in modern warfare with its unmatched speed, precision and firepower. The nine-meter long missile can travel at thrice the speed of sound and carry a conventional warhead weighing upto 300 kg.

    Chairman DRDO S Christopher and Director General of BrahMos Sudhir Mishra have also congratulated scientists on the successful validation of life extension technology, which will benefit the Armed Forces maintain an economical inventory having long duration systems.



    The missile has already been inducted in the Army and Navy while the process is on for an early induction in the Air Force. First air launch of the missile was conducted from Sukhoi-30 MKI last year.

    BrahMos is the only supersonic cruise missile possessing the advanced capability providing an edge to the user with precise hit. The Indian army is the first army in the World to have a regiment of supersonic cruise missile with advanced capabilities.
    Meanwhile, the strike range of BrahMos has already been extended from 290 km to 450 km after India’s full membership to the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR), which removed caps on range of the cruise missile.

  22. #1282
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    Btwn,

    I am unable to upload any image or post an attachment. After uploading the image through the INSERT IMAGE option, nothing is coming on screen.

    And HTP 500 error is occurring everytime I am trying to attach an image.


    Can someone help ?

  23. #1283
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    I have the same problem. It's not you. Might be server side.

  24. #1284
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    F-16 production can make India fighter jet export hub: Lockheed

    an interesting read with exclusive production now planned in INDIA (Tata)

    "F-16 exports could begin within five years of establishing production in India. Depending on when India makes its selection, more than 200 F-16s could be exported from India," Lall told PTI.

    The F-16 Block 70, he said, brings the most modern avionics, a proven Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, a modernised cockpit, advanced weapons, longer range with conformal fuel tanks, the Automatic Ground Collision Avoidance System (Auto GCAS) and an advanced engine with an extended service life.

    Block 70 mission systems are completely new and leverage technologies from the F-35. Northrop Grumman's advanced APG-83 AESA radar on the F-16 Block 70 provides F-16s with 5th Generation fighter radar capabilities by leveraging hardware and software commonality with F-22 and F-35 AESA radars, he said in response to a question.

    "F-16 production in India would indeed be exclusive something that has never before been presented by any other fighter aircraft manufacturer, past or present," he said.

    Noting that there are approximately 3,000 operational F-16s flying today with 25 leading air forces, including the US Air Force, he said the demand for new production of F-16s remains strong.

    "Many air forces are actively engaging with Lockheed Martin about the prospect of procuring new F-16s. We see F-16 production opportunities totaling more than 400 aircraft, including aircraft for the Indian Air Force," Lall said.
    SOURCE:
    Times of India

  25. #1285
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    Common India ..Common.. I got a 4th gen here for you. Do I ever have a deal for this 4th gen for you.

    That over there is a 5th gen. You don't want that.

  26. #1286
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    There has been some movement on the Jaguar re engining front with Honeywell F125 In engines. According to Mr Shukla, the project was resurrected last month and HAL is going to be the lead integrator of this re engining effort instead of Honeywell.

    IAF plans to re engine 80 of its Jaguars. Around 58-60 are receiving the EL/M-2052 as part of DARIN-3 deep upgrade. According to Broadsword, there are currently 119 Jaguars in IAF service out of 145 originally bought. 39 of this fleet 119 have limited airframe service life left and will not be part of the engine change upgrade.

    http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2018/0...aguar.html?m=0

    That the Jaguar IS/IM was severely underpowered is not something new. But with several upgrades, the Jag has grown heavier severely complicating the problem.
    There are tales of IAF pilots struggling to take off from Ambala air base with a full bomb load on a hot summer noon.
    But having said that, the IAF loves its Jags.

    The Indian Air Force (IAF), after being criticised for spending $9.2 billion on 36 Rafale fighter aircraft, is closing in on a far more prudent deal – the rejuvenation of 80 ageing Jaguar fighters into highly capable, multi-role, combat aircraft for a mere $1.5 billion or so.

    This long-delayed project, which was resurrected last month, involves replacing the Jaguar’s underpowered engines.

    Separately, the uprated fighter will get state-of-the-art avionics for striking ground targets more accurately, hitting maritime targets far out at sea, and winning aerial dogfights with enemy fighters.

    For a decade, the Jaguar upgrade proposal has remained stalled on the issue of cost. Honeywell was made responsible for “re-engining” the Jaguar, and the US firm quoted an unacceptable $2.5-3 billion for taking full responsibility for installing its new F-125IN engines in 80 Jaguars.

    But now, breaking that logjam, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) has been nominated the lead integrator, while Honeywell has stepped back to the more restricted role of engine supplier. HAL will buy F-125IN engines from Honeywell and install them in the Jaguars, replacing the current Rolls-Royce Adour 811 engines.

    HAL chief, T Suvarna Raju, claims his company can do the job more easily, and cheaply, than Honeywell, having built more than 145 Jaguars under license over the years. “Installing the F-125IN requires 10-12 relatively minor modifications. HAL can handle this easily”, he said.

    “The earlier tender stands withdrawn. In its place, HAL will take a quote from Honeywell for its engines and, after adding its own expenses, submit a ‘total project cost’. Based on that figure, the defence ministry will sanction the project. The contract will now be between the IAF and HAL”, said Raju.

    The HAL chief says there will be no time-consuming competitive tendering, since Honeywell is the only vendor. Rolls-Royce has declined to participate, since they do not have an engine that meets the IAF’s specifications for the Jaguar.

    Honeywell will require 36 months for the F-125IN engines to start rolling off the production line, but HAL wants to go ahead with engine integration, using two engines that Honeywell had built earlier when it was to have the lead role.

    Raju says he recently travelled to Honeywell’s facility in Phoenix, Arizona to “ensure that we benefit from several years of work they have already done on integrating the F-125IN onto the Jaguar. We need to cut down on time and expense, and avoid re-inventing the wheel”, he points out.

    Besides building two F-125 engines, Honeywell also bought a Jaguar airframe from the UK to integrate them on to. It remains to be seen whether the US firm will cooperate with HAL for mutual benefit, or demand financial compensation for the work it did earlier.

    The first indicator, say defence ministry sources, will be the terms that Honeywell demands for supplying two engines to HAL – sale, rent, lease or gratis.

    Of the 145 Jaguars that HAL built for the IAF, only 119 are currently flying, comprising six IAF squadrons of about 20 fighters each. Since 39 of these would complete their airframe lives by 2025-30, the IAF considers it uneconomical to re-engine these. That leaves 80 Jaguars, whose service lives would be extended to 2035-40 with new engines.

    With each of those fighters requiring two engines, and an additional maintenance reserve of 40 engines, HAL would require 200 F-125IN engines from Honeywell. Aerospace industry experts estimate a price of $5-6 million per engine, which would place Honeywell’s bill at a little over a billion dollars. The remaining cost would be incurred in integrating the engines onto the fleet.

    With engine supply starting only three years from the contract date, substantial numbers of re-engined Jaguars would probably materialize only after five years, i.e. around 2024.

    IAF pilots joke that the Jaguar’s current engines are so underpowered that the fighter only gets airborne because the earth is round – and its curvature makes the ground drop away beneath the moving aircraft. With the Rolls-Royce Adour 811 engines output (25 kiloNewtons of dry thrust and 37.5 kN with afterburners) being replaced by the F-125IN (27.7 kN of dry thrust and 43.8kN with afterburners), Jaguar pilots believe they would have the last laugh.

  27. #1287
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    Begs the question as to why Honeywell was supposed to be the lead integrator for the re-engining effort earlier? Why couldn't HAL have been tapped to install the engines and make whatever changes were required to the Jaguars to accept the new engines? HAL has all the experience needed, especially since they were building Jags till a few years ago.

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