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Thread: Indian Air Force Thread 21

  1. #1381
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    Arihant, by all means use the brochures PSG posts. Take all the BS he writes with a load of salt.

    DARE is THE de-facto EW designer in India, period. Even BEL follows their lead. Their counterpart with equal importance is DLRL. That's it. DLRL handles platforms for the Navy, AF, IA which are larger and more static in nature. Whereas DARE is ex-ASIEO and hence handles most of the airborne tactical programs.

    The reason I am posting this is because they CHOSE the 568 after shortlisting Elettronica & made sure AEDS/BEL both license manufacture specific subsystems they handpick for their programs. So when you state "DARE only played the role of systems integrator and lead in agency for the D-29 suite". This is misleading. DARE is the design authority. It makes the key components such as the Digital RWR, the ESM, the Unified Receiver and Exciter with DRFM which basically is the brains of the entire suite & the Tx/Rx jammer is merely the tool by which the selected jamming is achieved. If the DARE role was merely similar to that on the original Su-30 MKI, i.e. provide an ESM to provide cues to the Italian jammer, there would be no need for an UREP.

    In short, what this means is that even though another fighter may have a 568 SPJ, it's performance may be entirely different to that of an Indian fighter with the 568 because the jamming modes and capabilities stored and triggered by the UREP on the Indian system differ.

    Take a look at the brochure you posted. It shows a SSTRU. That is the Solid State Tx Rx unit. Basically, its merely the hardware that implements the jamming that the UREP sends out. It is clearly NOT the ENTIRE ELT/568 unit which PSG has been yacking about.

    The guy can post brochures but lacks the interest to even read what he posts.

  2. #1382
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    Halloween,

    Not exactly. The Indian programs don't use the entire ELT/568. They merely use the SSTRU. The Indians (wisely) asked for the hardware to emit the desired waverforms etc but have kept the entire waveform generation, algo work etc within India.

  3. #1383
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    Arihant,

    " DRDO likes to brag its newly developed products. But the BMD program has been an exception. I am amazed by the fact that a tight lid has been kept on the LRTR series as well as the C3I and the interceptor elemnts of the BMD program. There was not a single poster on the AAD/PDV/LRTR/MFCR and the upcoming phase 2 at the recently concluded Defexpo 2018."

    DRDO was forced to "brag" as you put it, after a malicious and motivated campaign was undertaken against it, to claim that they did nothing and only had old technology etc. DRDO then used the BMD program to show the @sses in the media, like Pandit & his backers, that they had far more going on than thought.

    Neither was there any dope on it at Aero India 17 and Defexpo 16.
    You are mistaken here. AAD launcher models and C3I infoboards were displayed.

    The original MFCR was a Thales product. It is not known as to whether the mfcr currently being used is an indigenous radar or a Thales one.
    All the BMD components have been indigenized. We paid Thales for TOT for the original MFCR and then LRDE set up an indigenization team to make the key components inhouse. We now make the critical items such as the S Band Tx/Rx modules, the signal processors, the exciter/waveform generator etc all within India. I might have posted details on it a few years back (search under my posts).

    Interestingly enough, the MFCR was, technologically speaking, somewhat ahead of the original LRTR (for which we followed a similar process). The new DRDO Arudhra is actually more sophisticated than both, hardware & features wise. Both it, and the LLTR Ashwini have cleared user trials and will soon be in IAF service. That's four AESA radars of completely Indian origin in IAF service then, leaving the indigenized BMD units apart, and soon to be followed by several more.

    Regarding the jammers from DARE, I wouldn't be surprised if all 3, the D-29, D-JAG and Su-30 pod all use the Alpha/Elettronic SSTRU. Need of the hour is to get flying operational units fast. The replacement by new SSTRUs of complete local origin can always happen later.

  4. #1384
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    @ Teer,

    Thanks for the detailed explanation.

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    The SSTRU and the AAU are from Elettronica. The UREP and the receiving antennas have been designed by Dare. The jamming techniques will be different from the ELT-568 since the UREP is an indigenous design.

    Dare is the designer and developer of the majority of aerial EW - ECM and Esm systems. Although BEL has their own R&D department, it is more of a production agency. The majority of systems manufactured by BEL have been designed by LRDE and DARE.


    Regarding the BMD, will you kindly post the C3I info boards shown at Defexpo 18.

    So the original deals dor 2 EL/M-2080 Green Pines and Thales Ground Master also included extensive ToT so thatBEL is able to manufacture them indigenously. The deals must also have included TRMM production tech transfer. Drdo has worked on these designs and came up with extended range variants of the respective designs.

    Regarding the ground based AESA radars in Indian origin,heres the list-

    1. ELM-2080/LRTR
    2. Thales MFCR
    3.ELM-2084 Arudhra
    4. ELM - 2083
    5. ELM-2248 MFSTAR.

    The radars to be inducted soon or are in the last stages of developement are-

    1. Arudhra MPR
    2. Ashwini LLTR
    3. AD-TCR
    4. BSR and BMFR of QRSAM
    5. HPR

    Two squadrons - No 47 Black Archers and No 223 Black Tridents have been upgraded to UPG standard. The First Supersonics squadron is being upgraded now. So, the D-29 suite is already in operational service.

    The RWJ of DARIN-3 will follow suite.


    Teer, can the MRSAM and Barak-8 intercept TBM and NLOS-BSM? The IAI presentation on naval and land based Barak-8 doesn't portray an ABM capability.
    Last edited by Arihant; 15th June 2018 at 05:54.

  5. #1385
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    The indigenous HPR that will soon be procured by the IAFto replace the vintage THD-1955 ASR in its inventory

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    450 km detection range for a 2sqm target. That's pretty good and better than other long range airspace surveillance radars out there.

    Indianski land based SPY-1D(V). Except that's its strictly for surveillance and early warning purposes.
    It will in all probability have a ballistic missile detection and tracking capability.
    Last edited by Arihant; 15th June 2018 at 05:46.

  6. #1386
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    Thanks for the poster

    Don't you just love it that the BEL poster guys happily put a LCA in the EW SUITE for MiG-29.

    Coming to the radar list, those radars are mostly all imported or of foreign origin in some form. Please also add Thales LLTR to the list, 19 are on order, several/all delivered. These are GSM-100 being license manufactured at BEL. These are also AESA radars.

    Also, there is an Elta Aerostat radar in service. We purchased two - one aerostat had an accident and was to be rectified. But IAF loved them even so, and wanted to buy 4 more. Each had a 450 km range

    There are also some other specific radars in service, more on that later.

    Another AESA radar in service of Indian origin is Aslesha, it is in IAF service in Mk1 form and a variant is in development for the IA, called the Bharani Mk2. MK1 was a 2D L Band, whereas Mk2 is a follow on to the Aslesha. IAF has 21 Aslesha units on order. We can expect more Aslesha variants to emerge.

    Arudhra and Ashwini have both cleared IAF user trials and will soon be in IAF service, numbers on order are 8 and 18 respectively and we can expect Arudhra orders to increase.

    Ironically (and confusingly), IAF named the Israeli imported 2284 radar as Arudhra as well. 18 of those are on order and most/several have been delivered.

    Another AESA FCR which might see IAF service, is the Atulya ADFCR. It is in development for the IA to direct their guns and VSHORAD missiles but IAF may pick it up. It is now headed for User assisted trials and then User trials.
    AD-TCR is also in the same stage and again, meant for the Army, but may be the command group radar for the QRSAM so may see service with all QRSAM operators.

    AFAIK, the IA version of the MRSAM was specifically mentioned as having ABM capability. They might have explicitly asked for it anticipating both PRC 2nd Arty and PA Nasr concerns. Can you share the presentation you are referring to?

    About the HPR, is that a vendor representation?

    AFAIK, the IAF HPR tender was being contested by BEL, HAL and several other firms, all of whom were trying to tie up with foreign partners to field a radar quickly. It would have been awesome if LRDE did the program, but they seem to be swamped in existing work.

    450km against a 2sq mtr target seems to be a conservative figure asked for by the IAF. I wish they had been even more aggressive and asked for a proper full GaN based HPR with extreme range.

    It is to be capable of tracking BMD targets as well, and hence will serve as a useful adjunct to the BMD network.

  7. #1387
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    Wow I just read the images posted by you. Awesome news, that IS a LRDE program. Finally!!

    So the HPR radar is a LRDE program as well, looks like IAF wants a more compact solution than the LRDE LRTR which has 600 km range. LRDE is also working on a 1000 plus km ranged radar.

    With the HPR, only radar LRDE (DRDO) would not have in service (yet) would be the AESA FCR and Naval systems, they have literally every other system in advanced development or in service. Their next gen tech roadmap is also progressing and clearly stated.

  8. #1388
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    Against a 0.1 sq mtr target (typical BM target), the LRDE HPR should manage a 200 km range. Not bad, will provide a vital role as backup to the main BMD network with 600km/1000km+ ranges.

    The BMD program comes under PMO, handled by the IAF.

  9. #1389
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    Wow the availability of AeSa radars and the range of products are mind boggling , in a decade we would see most of iaf radars will be fully aesa type

  10. #1390
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    DRDO AESA radars are now in full blown series production, with around 70 on order already.

    Next, GaN & anti-stealth systems will be in production.

  11. #1391
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    Which Anti-Stealth system ?
    "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

  12. #1392
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    can the MRSAM and Barak-8 intercept TBM and NLOS-BSM? The IAI presentation on naval and land based Barak-8 doesn't portray an ABM capability.
    Barak-8 can in secondary role much like PAC-3 , Aster-30 or 9M96E series they have secondary ABM capability built in but limited to intercepting MRBM targets ( under 1000 km range BM )

    The brochure too says it has ABM capability and why not http://www.iai.co.il/Sip_Storage//FILES/8/42368.pdf
    "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

  13. #1393
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    Building-block air defence [ES18D3]

    IAI has launched a modular air defence system that draws on its experience with the Barak missile family. Known as Barak-MX, the new system takes a modular and scalable approach, linking sensors, launchers and effectors into a system that can be tailored and sized to meet air defence needs. While IAI can provide all of the necessary elements from the company’s portfolio, the Barak-MX can work with radar and effector types from other sources, and which may already exist within a country’s inventory.

    At the heart of Barak-MX is a central command and control battle management centre that has advanced systems that match shooter to threat. To this central core can be added a range of air defence sensors and effectors to scale up the system. This allows an air defence network to be built up in blocks, expanding as needs arise and budgets allow. The system is equally applicable to land- and sea-based systems, and can integrate the two into one network.

    In terms of effectors, IAI offers three missiles based on the Barak 8: the Barak MRAD with a single-pulse engine giving a range of up to 35km, dual-pulse Barak LRAD for engagements of up to 70km, and Barak ER. Development of the dual-pulse 150km Barak ER weapon is currently under way. The weapon has an additional booster motor that increases its length, and also that of the required launcher. Further tests are planned for the remainder of the year, and IAI suggests it could be ready for production in about a year.


    Although these vertical-launch interceptors – or their equivalents – cover the core of the Barak-MX requirement, functions at either end of the engagement scale could be integrated, such as very short range/C-RAM systems at the lower end, and a BMD (ballistic missile defence) capability at the upper end.
    "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

  14. #1394
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    Barak-8 can in secondary role much like PAC-3 , Aster-30 or 9M96E series they have secondary ABM capability built in but limited to intercepting MRBM targets ( under 1000 km range BM )

    The brochure too says it has ABM capability and why not http://www.iai.co.il/Sip_Storage//FILES/8/42368.pdf
    I can't find any mention of ABM capability in this brochure. Also there is nothing snout intercepting ballistic missiles in the IAI page on land based Barak-8.

    This is an entirely new offering from IAI. The Barak MX uses a brand new missile and not the existing Barak-8 missile. There are three new missile variants of this MX family.
    35 km range single pulse MRAD.
    70 km range dual pulse LRAD
    150 km range dual pulse+solid booster ER. This variant has TMD capability.


  15. #1395
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    Can you share the presentation you are referring to?






    About the HPR, is that a vendor representation
    It's from DRDO. List of products whose technology is to be transferred to prospective vendors.

    https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/English...tech-ready.jsp

    The ELM-2083 radar I mentioned is the in service aerostat radar that you have talked about. It has a 250 km range according to the IAI brochure. Currently only one is in operational. One was severely damaged according to a CAG report.

    Against a 0.1 sq mtr target (typical BM target), the LRDE HPR should manage a 200 km range. Not bad, will provide a vital role as backup to the main BMD network with 600km/1000km+ ranges.
    We cannot equate the range agisnt air breathing targets against that for ballistic missiles. In the BM mode, the radar uses different waveforms, PRF and maybe frequencies. So when it comes to ballistic missiles the range will be different compared to this. The range will be a lot higher.
    Look at this here. Take the case of SMART-L MM/ D. It has an instrumented range of 400 km for air defense while for ballistic missiles it has a 750 km instrumented range in rotating mode and 1000 km in staring mode.

    The SMART-L MM/N has a 2000 km instrumented range for BM and 480 km air defense range.

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    So, when it comes to BM, our HPR is likely to have a much longer range, nothing less than 800-1000 kms. It will serve in a secondary BMD early warning and tracking role. The Western and SW command HPR will be prime targets for Pakistani Babur, Raad and their plethora of ARM. So they needs to be adequately defended.

  16. #1396
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    Arihant, I am anticipating the radar operating in a typical surveillance mode, not staring mode & hence the use of a multi-purpose not specialized mode. Once targets are detected, it can interleave modes. I expect it will be in a wide volume search, and if targets are detected, the operators can then choose further operations (e.g. increase the dwell time for specific targets i.e. staring mode whilst the radar then continues its other typical modes). Since its a 4 panel AESA, this will happen in micro seconds, or even milliseconds will easily suffice.

    Hence a 200 km range is Ok-Ok against even such targets.

    IA MRSAM is explicitly mentioned as having ABM capability. Its a PTI report but when it was first reported, I actually chased down the actual statement on PIB, and yes, it has anti-missile capability.

    https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...w/60244300.cms

  17. #1397
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    It has an instrumented range of 400 km for air defense while for ballistic missiles it has a 750 km instrumented range in rotating mode and 1000 km in staring mode.
    probably also has to do with Radar Horizon when scanning air breathing targets versus high altitude ones plus the fact you have far less clutter and atmospheric issue to deal with compared to looking over the horizon.

    A Nebo-M in circular scan mode has a radius of 600 km but in static mode has range of 1800 km https://www.rt.com/news/233959-russi...s-nebo-radars/
    The radar is designed to automatically detect and track airborne targets such as ballistic missiles, stealth aircraft, or drones, as well as hypersonic targets. In the circular scan mode the complex is able to track up to 200 aerodynamic targets at a distance and at altitudes of up to 600 kilometers. In sector scan mode, Nebo-M can track to 20 ballistic targets at ranges of up to 1,800 kilometers and at an altitude of up to 1,200 kilometers.
    Last edited by Austin; 18th June 2018 at 18:24.
    "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

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