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Thread: Chinese air power thread 18

  1. #1231
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    KJ-500A: KJ-500 with IFR probe


  2. #1232
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    Chinese internet is going wild over it with many thinking its a new medium airlifter.
    this one came from a popular site called chinchin

  3. #1233
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    Chinese internet is going wild over it with many thinking its a new medium airlifter.
    this one came from a popular site called chinchin
    NO, not really the Chinese Internet, but some stupid fan-boy pages like the "popular site called chinchin". I don't know why all that hype. Even the original poster of these images confirmed by the c/n - just look at the post I made one page back - it is NOT the Y-30, it is plain and simple a test specimen of the Y-20 manufactured already in 2009 ... this "thing" was built also at XAC and not at Shaangxi, which develops the Y-30.
    ...

    He was my North, my South, my East and West,
    My working week and my Sunday rest,
    My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
    I thought that love would last forever; I was wrong.

    The stars are not wanted now; put out every one:
    Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun;
    Pour away the ocean and sweep up the woods:
    For nothing now can ever come to any good.
    -------------------------------------------------
    W.H.Auden (1945)

  4. #1234
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    J-20 air refuelling?
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  5. #1235
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    Oh come on ! ... these are so badly photoshopped....
    ...

    He was my North, my South, my East and West,
    My working week and my Sunday rest,
    My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
    I thought that love would last forever; I was wrong.

    The stars are not wanted now; put out every one:
    Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun;
    Pour away the ocean and sweep up the woods:
    For nothing now can ever come to any good.
    -------------------------------------------------
    W.H.Auden (1945)

  6. #1236
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    Oh okay my bad!

  7. #1237
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    Indeed. The J-20 must be rather underpowered if it needs reheat to keep up with the tanker...

  8. #1238
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    Oh okay my bad!
    No problem, and sorry, if I was a bit hash with my reply.

    The J-20 - and no other PLAAF-type - has the ability to be refuelled via a boom and also the J-20 has a IFR-probe similar to the J-10, but retractable.
    ...

    He was my North, my South, my East and West,
    My working week and my Sunday rest,
    My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
    I thought that love would last forever; I was wrong.

    The stars are not wanted now; put out every one:
    Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun;
    Pour away the ocean and sweep up the woods:
    For nothing now can ever come to any good.
    -------------------------------------------------
    W.H.Auden (1945)

  9. #1239
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    And mismatched nozzles....
    "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

  10. #1240
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    What is going on here with the J-20 program ?? Why is nobody keeping track of it ?

    The Chinese brass say that the jet is in service. With what engines ? Surly this first batch isn't fully stealth. They don't have serrated engine nozzles.

    How many are being built ?

    Everyone is watching the su 57 at every turn and making theories about the state of the program yet the J-20 program just goes unnoticed. Everyone just nods their head when the Chinese make statements about the program.
    Last edited by KGB; 9th July 2018 at 17:34.

  11. #1241
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    ^ seems like the PLAN wants to replace the Su-33 clone due to mechanical issues and frequent crashing (didn't even know this was an issue until these reports were made).
    since the issue is mechanical rather than pilot error
    either the Su-33 was flawed or the Su-33 copy was flawed.

    seeing as how none of the Su-33 crashes were due to mechanical error (so far, it was caused by the arrestor cable of the carrier, syria attack, etc).. then logical conclusion is that the Su-33 cloning process was poor.

  12. #1242
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    seems like the PLAN wants to replace the Su-33 clone due to mechanical issues and frequent crashing (didn't even know this was an issue until these reports were made).
    since the issue is mechanical rather than pilot error
    either the Su-33 was flawed or the Su-33 copy was flawed.

    seeing as how none of the Su-33 crashes were due to mechanical error (so far, it was caused by the arrestor cable of the carrier, syria attack, etc).. then logical conclusion is that the Su-33 cloning process was poor.
    Or it is simply a faked BS report written in the original report by Minnie Chan from SCMP, who has awell known credibility on Chinese military matters similar to the German BILD, concerning international politics.

    There are indeed some mishaps but most Chinese sources relate them to the heavy exercising and operational tempo additional to the general early state of operational readiness... and the aim to replace the J-15 is more related to its dated design and the general wish to get 5th generation fighters too ...
    ...

    He was my North, my South, my East and West,
    My working week and my Sunday rest,
    My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
    I thought that love would last forever; I was wrong.

    The stars are not wanted now; put out every one:
    Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun;
    Pour away the ocean and sweep up the woods:
    For nothing now can ever come to any good.
    -------------------------------------------------
    W.H.Auden (1945)

  13. #1243
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    ^ It is indeed surprising to see how far along the carriers are yet they have so few of these jets. Which aren't ideal for carriers anyway + the cloning process.

    China should have had a better relationship with Russia by making it clear that they wont just buy 2 and copy carrier jets. They should have ordered a squad or 2 of mig 29 kubs right from the start. But Russia refused.

    Maybe they still could. It would be a shame for the carrier program to fall behind because of the jets. But they have to do something.

    Or it is simply a faked BS report written in the original report by Minnie Chan from SCMP,
    could be. But even if the jets are good, they don't have enough of them. They have to do something.

  14. #1244
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    It would be a shame for the carrier program to fall behind because of the jets. But they have to do something.

    They are behind, and so they don't have to worry about anything. They can't replicate our 100 year experience with flat tops in only a few years. And I disagree with your assertion. I think they are going about it right. It would be foolish for them to commit large resources to carrier based dreams until they really understand what they are doing. Go slow at first...you can always pick up the pace down the road. It's not like they don't have time. The US isn't going to launch some massive attack against them. Nor would they attack us in such a manner. If a conflict does break out it will be because some dumb stunt went horribly wrong. This means it will start out small. Hopefully, all of our leaders will be smart enough to cut it off quick so that it doesn't go beyond that.

  15. #1245
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    @KGB

    What is going on here with the J-20 program ?? Why is nobody keeping track of it ?

    The Chinese brass say that the jet is in service. With what engines ? Surly this first batch isn't fully stealth. They don't have serrated engine nozzles.

    How many are being built ?

    Everyone is watching the su 57 at every turn and making theories about the state of the program yet the J-20 program just goes unnoticed. Everyone just nods their head when the Chinese make statements about the program.
    Unfortunately no one knows what is really going on with J-20 anymore since it finished development and began to enter service.

    Basically, no more prototypes are really being built except for a few engine testbeds, and all other new production seems to be for aircraft intended for service. That makes it hard to keep track of the number of aircraft being produced, as that number is likely a sensitive one and something the military will want to keep somewhat secret.

    Only semi estimated guesses can be made as to the number of aircraft that have been produced thus far.


    In other words, at this point the new "information" that we will get regarding J-20 will likely be in the form of much delayed info or pics showing new units receiving J-20s. We won't be getting new pics of every new J-20 airframe produced anymore like we did with the J-20 prototypes in the 2001-2016 period.

  16. #1246
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    One can still try to model the production rate based on other programs, like ones in the West. Like with the plans for F-22 production 6-10 production representative airframes, or pre-serials, delivered during a single year. (we'd have to find out which year that was) Then 10-16 airframes in the second year after that, IF all goes smoothly. Then 16-20 airframes in the year after. Year after could do 24 airframes, give or take, and subsequent years 30+ airframes, IF There is even demand for so many.

    Evidently, it's just conjecture and it's a highly dubious way of counting. But given that the alternative is zero actual information on actual j-20 production, it may be worth at least something.

    That "year 1" might be somewhere between 2016 and 2017. But even that's not 100% sure. If one is to use the lower end of mentioned ranges then one could get something like this:
    2016: 6
    2017: 10
    2018: 16
    2019: ~24

    The above might mean there's some 20-24 J-20 flying within PLAAF right now. Which actually isn't that implausible, since we do know some J-20 have been used in an actual front line squadron mission and there have been rumors of them serving with the 9th Air Brigade. In addition to that, J20s also first joined two other bases, for tactics development and training. So it's plausible there's several airframes per each of those basis, possibly even a dozen for conversion training alone as such tasks are hard to do on just a few airframes. Final tally of 20-24 doesn't seem as too high of an estimate in that case.

  17. #1247
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    Yeah, that is about the range of what my guess would be as well. But still a semi-educated guess unfortunately. PLAAF are keeping their aces close to their chest...

  18. #1248
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    LFMS quote about the J-20 from another thread

    Canards can work just fine in a VLO design. The principle that you have to be careful about not violating is leading edge treatment. You cannot violate this because they are by nature both strongly reflective by themselves and they are the prime launch points for "creeping waves" travelling through the skin of your aircraft. If you go look for an illustration of the surface composition of the Eurocanards, you will see that their canards have titanium leading edges. This creates a very strong impedance mismatch and so they are unsuitable for VLO. (Free space having an impedance of 377 ohms). But what you can do is build your canard out of a composite material with a sheet impedance close to that of free space (limiting the mismatch) or you can heavily treat the edges with a material with an impedance gradient which slowly bridges your canard material with free space. From photos of the J-20, it looks like the Chinese are doing this. They may even combine both methods. It is impossible to say for sure though because the Chinese are being very secretive. You can only find pictures of it in flyaway (primer coat) condition, whereas you can find pics of the F-22, F-35, and Su-57 while they are still in pieces.

    Most information on the J-20 is pure speculation. However, Chinese literature hints that their engine technology will fail to allow for all aspect VLO with regards to radar. (They are certainly aware of this and will at some point fix it.) The J-20 also has horrible IR exhaust plume reduction measures. US designs use (relatively) large bypass ratios for extra cooling, we mount engines far forward so that the aircraft structure will partially obscure exhaust plume IR emissions from many aspects, and the F-35 ducts in extra cooling air under its wings. The Russian Su-57 seems to duct in a 'third section' of air too underneath its vertical tail and they space their engines (so that the exhaust plumes can lose heat through convection all around its exterior whereas the center region with tightly spaced exhausts can't and so hold in heat) and they also cant their engines outward to force the hot exhaust air to merge with cold air travelling across the tail. Both the exhaust plume and the airfoil stream are highly turbulent and so will mix readily, shortening the length of the plume.

    The J-20 has no such IR reduction measures. It may cool internal electronic components appropriately, but exhaust plume reduction is critical.

  19. #1249
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    What are you trying to do, KGB? This place will go to hell if everyone tries to trash everyone else's threads. And there isn't a whole lot about the J-20 that is known as the Chinese got that whole program secured tight...so any attempt to gauge its capability will be imprecise.

  20. #1250
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    Quote Originally Posted by KGB View Post
    LFMS quote about the J-20 from another thread ...
    Not much is known (if any at all) about J-20 IR suppression, especially in terms of the exhaust plume. Both F-22 and F-35 nozzles are further inwards compared to the J-20. The nozzle itself doesn't seem to be any different from the regular AL-31FN nozzle. There is an F-35 style nozzle being tested in one of the J-20 prototypes and one J-10B/C prototype. But not sure whether this new nozzle is just for RCS reduction or whether it includes both RCS reduction and IR suppression. I think serious IR suppression might increase weight or require a redesign. This may not be possible until the WS-15 is ready.

    If the next version of the J-20 is going to look like this (Image - *not sure about this), then it should incorporate F-22 style IR suppression.

  21. #1251
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    http://www.deagel.com/news/China-Dev...000017911.aspx


    The cutting-edge missile's control systems need to be extremely efficient and accurate, said Wang Mengyi, deputy head of the Second Academy's General Design Department and former leader of the laboratory.

    "Metaphorically put, the mission of these control systems is to guide a needle to fly 1,000 kilometers to pierce the eye of another needle," he said. "For researchers from Zhang Yiqun Laboratory, their mission is to turn this seemingly impossible task into reality."

    Does anyone know the RCS of a needle or what the name of their air defense would be? Sounds like Russia might lose a business partner in selling their air defenses to.

  22. #1252
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    I think they're talking about it figuratively; the 1000 km thing is not an indication of actual range either.


    That said, it is likely indicative of a new generation SAM that they've been working on for a while.

  23. #1253
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    Y-9:


    J-10C:

  24. #1254
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    JH-7A:


  25. #1255
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    Y-9G ECM:


    H-500 (KJ-500) AWACS

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