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Thread: The US killer guns, death and destruction thread

  1. #31
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    I wonder what future armed-robbers will do now?

    I suppose the 'moral of the story' is that the potential armed-robber will think twice about committing a crime, or at least, committing a crime while carrying a gun; so the streets will become safer for every law-abiding citizen (and more dangerous for every gun-carrying criminal)! I'm sure in some cases that will be true.

    On the other hand, can you expect all potential armed-robbers to act so predictably and mend their ways? After all, in this case, you're dealing with a twenty-eight year old who thought the best way to improve his life involved holding-up a Pizza Hut with two accomplices; presumably he had no difficulty getting hold of a gun but how much cash could he expect to get from this one robbery (split three ways), not enough for any of them to 'retire' from their criminal careers, surely? Do you really want to trust your safety to the predictability of the decisions such an individual will make?

    Of course, another armed-robber may decide that he's not going to take any chances when he robs the next Pizza Hut; he may just shoot the employees before they shoot him!

    Maybe the thought of being shot will make our armed-robber nervous, assuming he wasn't already nervous, maybe he'll need a drink to calm his nerves, maybe he's taken drugs instead, or maybe he's just naturally jumpy? Do you really want to trust your safety to the predictability of the decisions such an individual will make?

    Don't imagine that I have any sympathy for an armed-robber that gets himself shot; he hasn't really got anybody to blame but himself. I'm just saying that arming the law-abiding citizen may not have the overall desired effect on the decisions that the armed-criminal may make.
    Last edited by Creaking Door; 5th November 2016 at 03:25.
    WA$.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Creaking Door View Post
    I wonder what future armed-robbers will do now?

    I suppose the 'moral of the story' is that the potential armed-robber will think twice about committing a crime, or at least, committing a crime while carrying a gun; so the streets will become safer for every law-abiding citizen (and more dangerous for every gun-carrying criminal)! I'm sure in some cases that will be true.

    On the other hand, can you expect all potential armed-robbers to act so predictably and mend their ways? After all, in this case, you're dealing with a twenty-eight year old who thought the best way to improve his life involved holding-up a Pizza Hut with two accomplices; presumably he had no difficulty getting hold of a gun but how much cash could he expect to get from this one robbery (split three ways), not enough for any of them to 'retire' from their criminal careers, surely? Do you really want to trust your safety to the predictability of the decisions such an individual will make?

    Of course, another armed-robber may decide that he's not going to take any chances when he robs the next Pizza Hut; he may just shoot the employees before they shoot him!

    Maybe the thought of being shot will make our armed-robber nervous, assuming he wasn't already nervous, maybe he'll need a drink to calm his nerves, maybe he's taken drugs instead, or maybe he's just naturally jumpy? Do you really want to trust your safety to the predictability of the decisions such an individual will make?

    Don't imagine that I have any sympathy for an armed-robber that gets himself shot; he hasn't really got anybody to blame but himself. I'm just saying that arming the law-abiding citizen may not have the overall desired effect on the decisions that the armed-criminal may make.
    What I think is sad is not who killed who but. that we have a society where a Pizza Hut employee needs to carry a gun?
    We worry about trump? we should worry about America.

  3. #33
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    'We' don't have a society where a Pizza Hut employee needs to carry a gun, or at least I (and I suspect you) don't...

    ...America has a society where a Pizza Hut employee feels the need to carry a gun!

    And the Pizza Hut employee wasn't breaking the law by carrying the gun was he?

    Quote Originally Posted by hampden98 View Post
    We should worry about America.
    Why?

    What is so special about the United States of America that needs our special concern? I mean, why aren't some of the longest and most passionate threads on this forum about the needless gun deaths in South Africa, or Brazil, or Mexico?

    Why are we all so concerned about America, apart from the fact that American gun-deaths make the headlines here for no other reason that we share a common language and happen to have news-teams over there?

    On the other hand we probably should worry about Donald Trump (or Hilary Clinton) becoming president; the United States of America, being the only true superpower in the world, will have an enormous influence on our security (primarily), our economy and our own international policy...

    ...I doubt very much if Donald Trump becoming president will affect the need for the employees of my local Pizza Hut to carry a gun, or the likelihood of them being robbed by an armed criminal.
    Last edited by Creaking Door; 6th November 2016 at 20:47.
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  4. #34
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    http://whotv.com/2016/11/03/suspect-...e-questioning/

    Amusing to see people blaming Obama for their deaths, whereas if weapons hadn't been as accessible then maybe crazies wouldn't have access to them and these police officers wouldn't have been ambushed and...whatever.
    So remember and spare a thought for all those alive at the moment but who will be dead by the end of the year: innocent and trusting children, family members shot by the gun freak relative who cannot handle life, those shot for kicks by the loon with the gun he just has to hear sing, those shot dead because those with a vested interest in the maintenance of the status quo are happy for nothing to change for the better.


    If only something might change because of the election.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Creaking Door View Post
    What is so special about the United States of America that needs our special concern?

    I mean, why aren't some of the longest and most passionate threads on this forum about the needless gun deaths in South Africa, or Brazil, or Mexico?
    Because a couple of our American friends rise to the bait every time.

    If our pointless blandishments went unanswered the thread would wither and die.

    Moggy
    "What you must remember" Flip said "is that nine-tenths of Cattermole's charm lies beneath the surface." Many agreed.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moggy C View Post
    Because a couple of our American friends rise to the bait every time.


    Moggy

    Steady on there, remember that "special" relationship.

    Quote Originally Posted by Creaking Door View Post

    What is so special about the United States of America that needs our special concern? I mean, why aren't some of the longest and most passionate threads on this forum about the needless gun deaths in South Africa, or Brazil, or Mexico?

    I would have thought that that was extremely self evident.
    I had just got round to seeing the glass as half full instead of half empty, when some sod came and drank it......

  7. #37
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    Is anything ever self evident?

    South Africa has always had gun crime, some of it may have been related to overthrowing the apartheid government and just carried on since the gun was there and the opportunity presented itself, etc etc. Lots of poverty, lots of unemployment and, conversely, lots of visible affluence too.
    Brazil would probably come under the heading of not a civilised country in the manner we would understand. I worked with a man who married a Brazilian girl and went out there for a while; lovely country, he said, lovely people (mostly), no prospects and little work - little wonder that the illegal lumber trade is such a major thing (cash in hand, no need to deal with the bureaucracy that is local government, loads of demand, etc). Very little chance for social progression, since no job no money so there are more illegal routes to assist. My colleague was with his brother-in-law at a petrol station when the car next to them was stolen - a man walked up to it, shot the driver at point blank, dragged the body out, got in and waited for the traffic to let him out like he had just filled up and not committed murder. The pair left as quick as they could because the police would detain everyone present and try to stick the killing on them, despite the lack of a gun or stolen vehicle: that was how it is. When I expressed shock at the tale my friend explained that it was how it was in Brazil - man has car, another has a gun. It happened to him with a pair of shoes, except that they knew he was a tourist so just waving the gun at him saved a bullet; as it was his shoes were the wrong size - they sized them up in front of him, but took them anyway to trade elsewhere. His advice was to never dress like you had money, not to have a phone, wallet, camera, or even a clean shirt when you go out. Those with money protect themselves, those without steal.
    Mexico has a big crime problem, mainly revolving around drugs.
    In common, all three have police corruption problems as well as major scale gang crime. Maybe America has similar problems but, and this is the clincher, America is supposed to be a civilised nation (ignoring elections) and yet it allows its citizens to arm themselves like it is still the wild west whereas South Africa, Brazil and Mexico have very little choice or ability.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moggy C View Post
    Because a couple of our American friends rise to the bait every time.

    If our pointless blandishments went unanswered the thread would wither and die.

    Moggy
    You sir, are an ishy person.

    The reason I posted this was to see the reaction the story brought; I did not post it to show the need for armed self-defense. Other employees at other business of similar nature, have defended themselves and then been fired for defending themselves and those around them.

    I put that here because of the reaction of the criminals parents.
    It would seem illogical and rather moronic but as my sister lives in an area with persons who have similar illogical views of society, and the father of her first three children went to prison for armed robbery, I wanted to see how some in the U.K. would respond to such an attitude. ( He told me once those rich people do not need all that money and my sisters attitude back then in reality was really not all that different)


    The responses I got were pretty much as expected.
    Last edited by RpR; 10th November 2016 at 21:07.

  9. #39
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    as RpR,

    US killer guns.

    Sounds like a B grade sci-fi movie.


    But there is real fear in USA, and I think caused by the general poor economy for lower middle class.

  10. #40
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    A

    I had just got round to seeing the glass as half full instead of half empty, when some sod came and drank it......

  11. #41
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    Several deaths at an airport in Florida, caused when a man (former soldier) took a gun from his luggage after a flight.

    The suspected gunman who shot and killed five people at a Florida airport with a weapon collected from his checked baggage was reportedly an Iraq war veteran known to the US authorities...

    ...A law enforcement official told the Associated Press that (Esteban) Santiago had walked into the FBI office in Anchorage in November to say the US government was controlling his mind and making him watch Islamic State videos.

    Agents questioned an agitated and disjointed-sounding Santiago and then called police, who took him for a mental health evaluation, according to the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity.

    George Piro, an FBI agent in charge of the Miami field office, confirmed that Santiago had come into the Anchorage office and said he clearly indicated at the time that he was not intent on hurting anyone.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...ooting-florida
    Meanwhile Japan has nearly totally eradicated gun crime.

    Japan has one of the lowest rates of gun crime in the world. In 2014 there were just six gun deaths, compared to 33,599 in the US. What is the secret?
    If you want to buy a gun in Japan you need patience and determination. You have to attend an all-day class, take a written exam and pass a shooting-range test with a mark of at least 95%.
    There are also mental health and drugs tests. Your criminal record is checked and police look for links to extremist groups. Then they check your relatives too - and even your work colleagues. And as well as having the power to deny gun licences, police also have sweeping powers to search and seize weapons.
    That's not all. Handguns are banned outright. Only shotguns and air rifles are allowed.
    The law restricts the number of gun shops. In most of Japan's 40 or so prefectures there can be no more than three, and you can only buy fresh cartridges by returning the spent cartridges you bought on your last visit.
    Police must be notified where the gun and the ammunition are stored - and they must be stored separately under lock and key. Police will also inspect guns once a year. And after three years your licence runs out, at which point you have to attend the course and pass the tests again.
    This helps explain why mass shootings in Japan are extremely rare. When mass killings occur, the killer most often wields a knife...

    ...Japanese police officers rarely use guns and put much greater emphasis on martial arts - all are expected to become a black belt in judo. They spend more time practising kendo (fighting with bamboo swords) than learning how to use firearms.
    "The response to violence is never violence, it's always to de-escalate it. Only six shots were fired by Japanese police nationwide [in 2015]," says journalist Anthony Berteaux. "What most Japanese police will do is get huge futons and essentially roll up a person who is being violent or drunk into a little burrito and carry them back to the station to calm them down."
    Overton contrasts this with the American model, which he says has been "to militarise the police".
    "If you have too many police pulling out guns at the first instance of crime, you lead to a miniature arms race between police and criminals," he says.
    To underline the taboo attached to inappropriate use of weapons, an officer who used his gun to kill himself was charged posthumously with a criminal offence. He carried out the act while on duty - policemen never carry weapons off-duty, leaving them at the station when they finish their shift.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-38365729
    A very interesting article, well worth reading.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by snafu View Post
    Several deaths at an airport in Florida, caused when a man (former soldier) took a gun from his luggage after a flight.
    Meanwhile Japan has nearly totally eradicated gun crime.
    There is no analogy between the U.S. and Japan as far as firearms or society much less how much border they share with another country where violent criminals run free ,but this is interesting.

    Japanese police officers rarely use guns and put much greater emphasis on martial arts - all are expected to become a black belt in judo. They spend more time practising kendo (fighting with bamboo swords) than learning how to use firearms.
    "The response to violence is never violence, it's always to de-escalate it. Only six shots were fired by Japanese police nationwide [in 2015]," says journalist Anthony Berteaux. "What most Japanese police will do is get huge futons and essentially roll up a person who is being violent or drunk into a little burrito and carry them back to the station to calm them down."


    The police shooting people who resist, armed or not has reached a level that simply did not exist when I was a teenager.
    Of course back then police in my area, if two got into a fist fight, they would break it up and tell them go home or go to jail.
    Nowadays, official protocol, is to handcuff and arrest both persons even if all bystanders say one was simply defending himself, so some resist being arrested for no reason and todays police are either poorly trained or simply resort to spray and pray with a firearm if some one dares to not bow to authority.
    Last edited by RpR; 5th October 2017 at 16:03.

  13. #43
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    I saw this and thought of... well actually, the thread "Only in America" but as I am one who no longer gets emails of subscribed posts I did not know it had, well, been.......
    Anyway, applies here as well

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41488081
    I had just got round to seeing the glass as half full instead of half empty, when some sod came and drank it......

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  15. #45
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    The latest mass murder in America is so sad, but face a few facts, whatever the gun lobby says, guns are designed to kill, they have no other purpose, any country which allows Mr Joe Average to legally buy and own an arsenal of weapons such as Paddock had, will have a gun problem.

  16. #46
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    I don't often agree with Piers Morgan, but he has shown up the pro-gun lobby in the US to the ridiculousness of their position with one very simple example.

    Kinder Surprise chocolate eggs.

    The complete silence from the NRA also exhibits their cynical approach.... Wait till it all dies down then express platitudes all the while spending millions of dollars behind the scenes trying to supress discussion of the issue in congress and the senate. But hey, thats democracy eh?
    Last edited by trekbuster; 4th October 2017 at 22:44.

  17. #47
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    I don't own a weapon, but as seen here, from people who don't have weapons...or even live in the country, it's easy to be against (or to be in favour of more government regulations) something when you're not involved.

    Remember that the next time there is a Shoreham-like disaster. Most people don't need guns...there is no need for flying old aircraft, aerial displays, auto racing or virtually anything else of a recreational nature.

    Unless all guns are forcibly confiscated, there I think we can assumed criminals and nuts won't give them up.

    Even if all guns magically even disappeared tomorrow, they would find there way into the country...like illegal drugs and immigrants.
    There are two sides to every story. The truth is usually somewhere between the two.

  18. #48
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    Trekbluster wrote:
    The complete silence from the NRA also exhibits their cynical approach

    They were supposed to say what?
    Maybe this is what you would prefer:

    http://www.stltoday.com/news/cbs-lawyer-fired-after-las-vegas-post-calling-music-fans/article_4df022cf-
    d240-56dc-a845-be4bf768f283.html


    Ignorant hateful blather, the usual response from Democrats.

  19. #49
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    Not hateful, just generalising.

    A bit like saying 'this is the usual response from democrats'. Is it? Is it really? I thought 'they should all just be allowed to kill each other' was more of a right wing thing? In general, of course, as we are talking in those terms.
    www.whirlwindfighterproject.org
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  20. #50
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    Remember that the next time there is a Shoreham-like disaster.
    Do you mean "the first time in living memory that people on the ground outside the airfield have been killed by an "old" aeroplane giving a display"? (This particular type of old plane is still in regular "military" use both here and in the USA where both operators have reasonably large fleets). Also Shoreham was an accident, mass shootings are not. Display aeroplanes are flown by experts, and are strictly controlled, gun ownership in many countries is not. Also, the figures speak for themselves so you do not have to be a gun owner or an expert to make comment. Regardless of the fact that criminals and forensic mentally challenged people may well always be able to get hold of weapons the fact remains that where their are restrictive gun laws, death caused by guns is very significantly less. Personally I would have said "capitalism" is a closer fit than "democracy" and one wonders what the result of a referendum would be. No system is perfect but surely this should not be an excuse to do nothing. I am not so sure that it is so easy to obtain a gun in the UK unless you move in the right, wrong, sort of circles as we see disgruntled factions taking to other methods to commit random killings. And here, in the UK, we take action, we took action over the purchase of knives and we are about to take action over the purchase of acid. Imperfect it may be, but at least we try.
    I had just got round to seeing the glass as half full instead of half empty, when some sod came and drank it......

  21. #51
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    ...where there are restrictive gun laws, death caused by guns is very significantly less.
    What 'restrictive gun laws' would you suggest would prove effective in the United States?

    As I see it, there are no gun-control laws in the United States; the existing layers of legislation are so full of holes as to be practically useless. And no political party would dare introduce effective gun-control measures because they wouldn't get elected!

    In short, the American people, or the American democracy, are happy with the current level of gun-control...

    ...which is virtually zero on the types of weapons used in recent mass-shootings.
    WA$.

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    Just to stir the pot, from what the news has said, this person was wealthy enough and had clear record so he could have legally purchased a full-on machine gun.
    They are for sale at several Las Vega stores where I shot them.
    He would have merely had to fill out the Federal form, pay the Fed. tax and then paid the five figure sum, depending on weapon.
    Had he done that the Democrats in this country would have had offensive language edited out that machine guns can be legally purchased with the proper Federal permits.
    Last edited by Moggy C; 5th October 2017 at 23:45.

  23. #53
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    What I find difficult to understand, and it is probably because I have no personal interest whatsoever in owning or using firearms, is why any private individual would want to own a machine gun. The fact that it is legal to do so in the US if you are wealthy enough is not something to be proud of.

  24. #54
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    I see one manufacturer of 'bump-stocks' as used in the Las Vegas massacre...

    ...has sold out due to high demand since the shooting!

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41519815
    WA$.

  25. #55
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    Trekbuster wrote:
    What I find difficult to understand, and it is probably because I have no personal interest whatsoever in owning or using firearms, is why any private individual would want to own a machine gun. The fact that it is legal to do so in the US if you are wealthy enough is not something to be proud of.

    No pride goes before the fall, but it is fully worth being pleased as punch about, as it is a great way to have fun and a nice investment.

    As a matter of note, though I may be wrong though, these are the only ones I know of for sale, Bump-stocks can only be fitted to rifles based on the AR-10 or AR-15 which are the best know black, color stock work, rifles.
    Also, at least in Minn. , sales of AR based rifles have more hoops to jump through than other black rifles.

  26. #56
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    Having fun with a machine gun..... Hmmm. Perhaps it might compensate for inadequacies in other areas of ones life... Or anatomy.
    Nope, still don't get it.

  27. #57
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    Also, at least in Minn. , sales of AR based rifles have more hoops to jump through than other black rifles.
    But, should you have jumped through those hoops, and do own a small arsenal of AR based rifles (like the Las Vegas shooter), is there anything to stop you selling any, or all, of those AR based rifles to anybody at all, without any sort of background check or anything (in a peer-to-peer sale)?

    Not a criticism; I just want to get my facts straight.
    WA$.

  28. #58
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    trekbuster

    Having fun with a machine gun..... Hmmm. Perhaps it might compensate for inadequacies in other areas of ones life... Or anatomy.
    Nope, still don't get it.
    No we do not have your problem, perhaps that is why you don't get it.

  29. #59
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    Creaking Door
    But, should you have jumped through those hoops, and do own a small arsenal of AR based rifles (like the Las Vegas shooter), is there anything to stop you selling any, or all, of those AR based rifles to anybody at all, without any sort of background check or anything (in a peer-to-peer sale)?
    No, except to anyone under 21 in Minn, or anyone who cannot legally buy a firearm.
    Should I do that, I am subject to State and Federal prosecution.
    Technically, if you go to a shooting range and even let those who cannot legally own fire your weapon, if they are total ass holes, they could make your life miserable even if you beat any charge they bring against you.
    The buyer of the ARs in Nevada passed all State and Federal rules and checks. Law enforcement said he raised absolutely zero red flags.

  30. #60
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    Honestly guys, what are you getting so worked up about?

    With around 1700 gun killings ln the US so far this year, a decent handful by armed toddlers, another 50 or 60 doesn't make a lot of difference.

    Just sit back and watch Trump trying not to offend the NRA who funded the bits of his campaign Putin didn't and be pleased that all we have to worry about is actual terrorists rather than the well-armed militia that's necessary for some reason or other I forget.

    Moggy
    "What you must remember" Flip said "is that nine-tenths of Cattermole's charm lies beneath the surface." Many agreed.

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