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Thread: RAF Museum Hendon - Closure / Dispersion of Battle of Britain Hall

  1. #361
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    It was probably a PR XI that photographed the Dams after 617s trip... so a PR Spitfire would be at home in the Bomber hall. The KI100 would be logical to go to a new home, after all at least 2 ME163s have been got rid of.
    pb::

  2. #362
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    ...leaving, what, only three Me163 in the country?

    The Ki-100 is unique, irreplaceable.....and you would swap it for another bloody Spitfire?

    I would have thought that the RAF operating two Spitfire PRXIX (PM631 & PS915) in flying condition and displaying them all over the country would have been enough to satisfy the 'underrepresented' art of photo-reconnaissance...

    ...but apparently you think not, you need to have another Spitfire PR variant in Hendon?
    Last edited by Creaking Door; 9th September 2017 at 13:55.
    WA$.

  3. #363
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    Still this RAFM web page is disingenuous with the truth. I make no apologies for going on about this.

    https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/london/...tain-hall.aspx
    I think it is worth quoting what the RAF Museum has to say about the re-display of the Battle-of-Britain aircraft:

    Redisplay plans will see five aircraft moving to new locations on our Cosford site (the Messerschmitt Bf 109G-2, Junkers Ju 88 R-1, Boulton Paul Defiant I, De Havilland Tiger Moth II and Gloster Gladiator I). The display of the Boulton Paul Defiant I in a West Midlands venue is particularly relevant given the company’s local history.

    In London, four aircraft will move into our main gallery (the Supermarine Spitfire I, Hawker Hurricane I, Fiat CR.42 and Messerschmitt Bf 109E).

    Four will be redisplayed in Bomber Hall with the Messerschmitt Bf 110G-4 displayed in pursuit of the Lancaster, clearly demonstrating the challenges of night bombing. The Heinkel He 111 H-20, Junkers Ju 87G-2 Stuka and Bristol Blenheim IV will complete the story.
    To me, while the loss of a 'dedicated' Battle-of-Britain hall is regrettable, I've been one of the fiercest critics of it in recent years; I don't think there are many who would disagree that it was desperately in need of updating!

    The access to the aircraft was ****-poor (until this year I'd never seen a Bf-110 from the rear or the far side of a Ju-88 or He-111), the lighting had drawn a lot of criticism, space was wasted on a lot of moth-eaten mannequins and many other exhibits were often out-of-order or closed.

    On the plus-side the Sunderland was a stunning walk-through exhibit (when it was open), the lighting was excellent in that half (thanks to these new-fangled, low-energy, things called 'w-i-n-d-o-w-s'!) and you could even get a good look at a V2 (which the RAF Museum seem to have forgotten about)!

    The 'crashed' Hurricane from the Battle-of-Britain hall, perhaps the most evocative exhibit in there, is not mentioned; presumably it isn't destined for a skip out the back!

    Frankly, I can see the logic of putting the Bf-110 (night-fighter!) in with the Lancaster; perhaps a regular 'rotation' of this and the Ju-88 night-fighter through the Bomber hall and a (future?) Battle-of-Britain hall wouldn't be such a bad thing?

    Is the Blenheim a fighter variant? Could it be converted to a night-fighter variant? Having this displayed with the He-111 would highlight the pioneering, and successful, role the RAF played in developing airborne radar?
    Last edited by Creaking Door; 9th September 2017 at 20:35.
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  4. #364
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    Your points dont really gell. Its the RAF museum.Therefore to tell the tale of the RAF the fact that the BBMF operate PRXIX doesnt really have any relevance to going to Hendon.

    As to the Ki100 - you perfectly illustrated the point. Its unique and irreplaceable.
    However that doesnt mean it has a great relevance to the RAF .Its far more interesting sat in a museum in Japan.

  5. #365
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    PR XI's operated from Hendon...

    The Blenheim next to the Battle is common sense. Early Bomber command a/c will finally be represented. I never saw any logic in the Tiger Moth being in the BoB collection, makes sense if it goes with other training a/c. Shame the Gladiator and Bulldog wont be together.
    pb::

  6. #366
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    Are there any Spitfire PRXI in the country, or available, anywhere?
    WA$.

  7. #367
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    Your points dont really gell. Its the RAF museum. Therefore to tell the tale of the RAF the fact that the BBMF operate PRXIX doesnt really have any relevance to going to Hendon.
    Seriously?

    Surely, the 'RAF Museum' is Hendon, Cosford and all the other airframes on loan to other museums? Plus, in addition to that, the RAF operate the aircraft of the BBMF...

    ...are you really saying that isn't enough for you to 'tell the tale of the RAF'?

    Do you live in Hendon or.....are you somehow prevented from visiting anywhere else?
    WA$.

  8. #368
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    As to the Ki100 - you perfectly illustrated the point. Its unique and irreplaceable. However that doesnt mean it has a great relevance to the RAF.

    It's far more interesting sat in a museum in Japan.
    Only if you live in Japan is it 'far more interesting'...

    ...it would be far less interesting to myself and 99.999% of the British population because we'd never ever have the chance to see it, and even if we did it would be extremely briefly and at prohibitive expense!

    There is also this thing called tourism, Britain's third biggest industry; if it doesn't fit the remit of the RAF Museum then let us move it to the IWM and create a world-class enclave of Japanese aircraft?
    WA$.

  9. #369
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    The KI100 needs to be in a museum or collection, and if it was part of a deal that saw a rare aircraft relevant to the RAF go on show, all the better.
    pb::

  10. #370
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    Had a visit to Hendon today. Maybe the Beacon isn't dead after all.



    Brian
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  11. #371
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    The majority of visitors to the RAF museums at Cosford and Hendon are not aircraft enthusiasts. Therefore if they don't get the story told well at either site they are not going to spend more money to drive round the country looking for the aircraft they didn't see ! As for Spitfire PRXI - three have been available at various times in the last forty years . It's not mission impossible to get one.

  12. #372
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    As for the Ki100 - it would be far more relevant in Japan or for that matter in the USA next to a B-29.
    We don't need to display unique example of Japanese technology - a well restored Zero or Val would be of greater interest and more incontext.

  13. #373
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    Looks like the P51 is moving at last - but where?
    pb::

  14. #374
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    As for the Ki100 - it would be far more relevant in Japan or for that matter in the USA next to a B-29.
    Or in fact anywhere but in the United Kingdom it seems.....what about next to the B-29 at Duxford?

    The majority of visitors to the RAF museums at Cosford and Hendon are not aircraft enthusiasts...
    All the more reason to have as much variety at the RAF Museum sites as possible...

    ...they aren't going to notice, or care, that they didn't see a Spitfire PRXI (just the four other Spitfires)!

    Let the minority of 'aircraft enthusiasts' hunt round the country to find the aircraft not at Hendon!

    The RAF Museum at Hendon is also an important London tourist site (or should be); many of the visitors aren't British and probably come to see the unique non-RAF aircraft as much as anything else.
    Last edited by Creaking Door; 9th September 2017 at 20:24.
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  15. #375
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    Undoubtedly it would have more relevance with the B-29. I think he point that I am trying to get across is that whilst we did capture the likes of the Ki100 - the fact that they are unique examples doesn't mean they tell any more of a story than a not so rare Zero. So yes it's great that we preserved it - however it's poor that what we have to represent the Zero doesn't do the type justice

  16. #376
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    I agree; and when the IWM (hopefully) get round to sympathetically restoring either of their two Zero fighters we will have two Zero fighters.....and a Ki-100 in this country!

    And yes, we did preserve it.....unlike many of the 'war prizes' taken by other countries; what wouldn't aviation enthusiasts give now to have had some of them preserved?

    I'm sorry, now that we've done all the hard work, why should we just give-away all these unique assets?
    Last edited by Creaking Door; 9th September 2017 at 20:52.
    WA$.

  17. #377
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    .......so because the only Zero we've got is in bits we should dispose of the Ki100 - rather than, say, recover another Zero as well?
    Last edited by Maple 01; 9th September 2017 at 20:45.
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  18. #378
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    Neither IWM zero will ever be restored to accurately represent the type. One is much too far gone, and there isn't enough of the other. It does however well represent a captured Japanese aircraft, that was operated by the RAF, and in that sense rather more relevant than the Ki100.

    I return to my original point. Many of those aircraft would be better placed in the IWM than with the RAFM. Context is important.

  19. #379
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    I agree, but the RAF Museum should not be allowed to offload any airframes to 'the highest bidder' or more airframes will simply disappear abroad into a shipping-container to be restored 'at some time in the future'...

    ...and under no circumstances should the Bf-110, Ju-87, Ju-88, He-111 or CR.42 ever leave the RAFM collection.
    WA$.

  20. #380
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    With regard to either IWM Zero, isn't there enough Zero 'replica' building experience out there to, at least, provide new-build wings and tail for one of them?

    It would have to be done extremely sympathetically, destroying as little original airframe as possible (none), and not 'restoring' at all the original cockpit sections; the new-build sections wouldn't even need to be attached but could be positioned exactly to leave a 10mm gap between them and the original airframe. They could even be finished in a 'replica deteriorated' paint scheme?

    It wouldn't be cheap but the technology certainly exists to scan and digitise for a perfect 'fit' to the original.
    WA$.

  21. #381
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    As a Yankee who visited this building often (in fact was instrumental in my aviation interest) I am really cross!

    Although the collection was a bit mixed (87, 110 and 88 where post BoB) it was a IMHO a great view of that period of time!
    I am glad I could see it in 2014, and how much it had changed.

    WTF is going on that RAFM?

  22. #382
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    We will be closing our Milestones of Flight Gallery on Monday 16 October so to start the enabling works for the fitting-out of a new permanent exhibition, the working title of which is ‘The RAF in an Age of Uncertainty’.

    We would like to apologise in advance for any disappointment that this may cause.

    This exhibition will open to the public in summer 2018, and will examine the RAF’s recent history from the Falklands campaign to the modern day.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/london/...october-until/

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  23. #383
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    Easily changed to 'The RAF Museum in an Age of Uncertainty' !

  24. #384
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    Calling all stations, can someone please find the plot - as we've lost it?
    "Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind."(Mary Baker Eddy)

  25. #385
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    As per my ramblings about the Malta aviation museum in my thread here last week, I'm not sure what is going on with Hendon. Probably the biggest crime at the moment is the Chapel at Biggin Hill, which I've been following via the Nooks and Corners page in Private Eye over the last few months. It seems that the issue is the same with both sites; the egos of those involved seem to overtake the project itself. Hendon really should sell itself, really. A large collection of interesting, pertinent and unusual aircraft in one easily accessed location. Why reinvent the wheel, simply because somebody somewhere has to put their personal slant and individual touch on the project?

    I liked the museum in Malta because it was simple, really. No faffy interactive displays, games, puzzles or any sort of need to put an overly emotional heart-tug on any of the exhibits. No overt politicising of the exhibits to suite niche agendas. It did the job it set out to do; cover the history of aviation in Malta!

  26. #386
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    Better ask the Luftwaffe if we can have a Tornado..... Hat coat.....

    Actually putting the RAF jets etc post Falklands into Milestones might work. A Jaguar would be nice, Harrier9 perhaps and a Tornado GR.4 will be available soon if they ask. And if they really get it together...... there are tranche 1 Typhoons (two seaters) being put into RTP !!!!

    Oh hang on I thinking correctly (and they never gave me a job there in January 16.!!)

    Probably given my aviation publishing background it might have been because I had some sort of a clue.

    T
    Last edited by Binbrook 01; 13th October 2017 at 23:52.

  27. #387
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    Maybe Duxford's TSR-2 in Milestones as well? Or turn Milestones into a potted history of how Britain slowly lost its hand in the world of aviation?

  28. #388
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    Is that a US Coast Guard Herc or is the museum getting sponsership from Easy Jet?
    Are the architects who created that graphic the same ones who thought this was a good idea for the public enterence / emergency exit for the Cold War building at Cosford?
    Click image for larger version. 

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  29. #389
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    "Actually putting the RAF jets etc post Falklands into Milestones might work...."

    Most of the post 1982 DFCs and the RAF's only CGC have been won by helicopter crews (20+ DFCs by Chinook crews in Afghanistan alone). The top combat (not trinket) decorated post-war RAF pilots are helicopter pilots. The most decorated post-WW2 airman is a helicopter crewman. This is before we talk about the vital role of the AT and MPA forces, and the losses both fleets have taken. In some campaigns, Jets have made zero or a minimal contribution. If the RAF truly wants to commemorate the post-82 era then it MUST include a Chinook (preferably ZA718, as it's taken part in most of them....) and alongside it a Puma with substantial displays highlighting the role of the C130, AAR force and the Nimrod (as I appreciate that Milestones is a little cramped for them.......).

    "Probably given my aviation publishing background it might have been because I had some sort of a clue."

    Yep, maybe. But, perhaps, also a somewhat narrow point of view. Sorry to seem a little blunt, but after years flying helicopters in some of the world's cr@ppest places in sometimes awful conditions, being shot at, rocketed, SCUDded and mortared it is a little frustrating when because we don't go "woosh" at airshows we get airbrushed out of history....

    There is more to airpower than jets, regardless how "sexy" they may appear to be. The RAF, as the UK's self-appointed custodians of airpower doctrine, sometimes need reminding of this fact.....

  30. #390
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    Always loved that entrance at Cosford...

    ...'award winning' architect at its best!
    WA$.

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