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Thread: BREXIT - Merged thread.

  1. #2491
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    Just watched Diane Abbott sadly back on TV ( nice upmarket recycling btw taking a smashed window and turning it into a necklace) she was spouting on about the proposed 2 year transition and saying that they propose a fixed term 2 year as opposed to a flexible... Flexible is surely the way to go because you do not want to be tied into something when the time is ready to leave, additionally you need if needed to be able to tweak it. I see labour appear to be backtracking on leaving too

  2. #2492
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    Save your fulminations for unrestricted immigration which is solely responsible for the present state of affairs.
    Soley responsible? I think not, The thatcher years were when social housing was old off cheap and the councils were ideologically prevented from replacing their housing stock. That is one of the main root causes of the current housing crisis.

    She also started the "me, me" culture that has led to the lack of personal responsibilty you decry.

  3. #2493
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    If you can't find anyone convenient upon whom to lay the blame Mrs. (sic) Thatcher will do. Trekkie, your comment exceeds the permitted bounds of nonsense.

    The problem - to which you refer- was created when residential property was perceived to be a trading commodity just like any stock or share rather than just a very necessary roof over your head. Mrs. T, whatever her faults did nothing to foster that particular idiocy.

    No. You and I both know that leftie educationalists are responsible for that. Nothing can be done, as with much else, the genie is out of the bottle.

  4. #2494
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    No John, I don't lay all of the UK's ills on that woman, but credit must go where it is due and the commodity thing was exactly what she was intending to promote, with an eye out for the supposed idea that anyone who owned their own house was bound to vote tory.

  5. #2495
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    Watch some part of the three MP's at the labour conference talking about immigration then one of them starts spouting it is racism to restrict it and that democracy is fluid and things have changed since the referendum, so they can ignore it.

  6. #2496
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    Tony T, When did you see these three MPs at the Labour conference? I haven't seen or read any of it, however if this is true, then those Labour MPs are off beam, controlling immigration is not racist, it is in reality common sense which no government to date has attempted to control and please don't give me "EU freedom of movement" when immigration from outside the EU has consistently been greater than immigration from within, in fact until the admission of the Eastern European countries immigration from the EU was small and in fact barely equaled emigration from the UK to the EU.

    Even the patron saint of Brexiteers (Farage) admitted that immigration to the UK would not cease or even fall after exiting the EU, the argument on immigration is the fault of our own governments, not the EU, however the current calls from the EU hierarchy for more integration, assimilation, commonality across all countries, certainly aids Brexiteers, very few in this country would sign up to becoming part of some United States of Europe under EU control.

  7. #2497
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    John Green
    "prior to 1960 most people lived in private rented property" you are of course joking, large scale building of council housing started after WW1 in 1919, with a major boost after WW2 by 1960 the vast majority of rented property was council housing, anyone looking to rent a home went first to their local council, certainly not to the private sector, then along came Thatcher hoping to create a property owning democracy which would hopefully vote Tory, but of course the banning of councils from investing this income in more social housing was the forerunner to our housing shortage, of course immigration plays a part, but is far from being the cause of our current housing state.

    Just a look at simple economics tells it's own story, when we bought our first home our mortgage was greater than local rents, no problem because we were investing in our future, now it is far cheaper to pay a substantial mortgage than pay rent, which is the fact that permits the growth in the buy to rent sector, but too many renters can't get the money together for the initial deposit due to low income.

    Now retired, we could not afford to pay the rent for our house by a long way, fortunately we own it, or we would be dependent on housing subsidy to keep a roof over our heads.

    As a country we stopped caring for our elderly when they became a cash stream for private providers, when funding was cut and cut again until even the private care providers can't provide as they should and show a profit, plus of course there are providers were the sole aim is minimum service, maximum profit.

    Wealth does not percolate down to all levels of society, in reality the very wealthy go to a great deal of effort to make sure of that, employers who use every trick in the book and some not in the book, to deny workers proper employment and income, the big multi corporations who shuffle their income through off shore "headquarters" to avoid contributing, the list could go on and on.

    Incidentally in response to a previous post, in spite of the best efforts of the Tories, we do not live in a capitalist democracy, this country is and has been for a long time very much a mixed economy, with a mix of public sector and private sector, that mix must be preserved, to go wholly one side or the other is far too damaging for the majority, for me I have always firmly believed that essential services, the things we need, should be public sector and the things we want private sector.

    Handing public services to the private sector does not reduce the bill, far from it, in most cases the bills are higher either through the taxpayer or direct charge, I personally can't see one public sector privatisation which has benefited the taxpayer or general public.

  8. #2498
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    Silver Fox it was on TV Sunday Morning, I actually recorded it and I could not believe what I was listening too, the one in the middle was the only one talking any sense, you can see part of it here, but you need to liten to it all to realise the absolute sh*te the guy is talking... I loved the rubbish that Democracy is fluid and the country has moved on from the vote so we can basically ignore it.. That IS NOT DEMOCRACY.

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/...ol-Theresa-May

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...our-mp-claims/
    Last edited by TonyT; 25th September 2017 at 10:42.

  9. #2499
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    Tony T,

    All political parties have their lunatic fringe, but personally I have little or no time for those of any group or party who rush to raise the racism flag whenever anything opposes their own dream.

    Constantly using immigration and racism in relation to the EU, is more than a little off beam, I am tired of repeating the fact that non EU immigration has consistently exceeded immigration from the EU, I listened to a Corbyn interview today, while he defended EU workers coming into the country, he also said quite clearly that the present situation of agencies recruiting abroad, of using immigrant labour to hold down wages in the UK, WAS WRONG AND WILL BE STOPPED, he was also equally clear that the present situation is only to the benefit of employers looking for cheap disposable labour.

    Defenders of immigrant workers give us the spiel that immigrants bring skills into the country, from what I have seen the bulk are actually relatively unskilled workers, who are cheap and disposable, this is abuse of both UK and immigrant workers.

  10. #2500
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    You say that, but I watched a programme years ago about Boston and unemployment and some unemployed guy was being interviewed about the influx of fruit pickers from abroad and hence the lack of jobs as foreigners were taking them all... Ask if they go will you take a job picking fruit... his answer.... NO... he wasn't going to slave away doing backbreaking work in a field, he would rather stay unemployed and get paid for doing squat.

  11. #2501
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    John , can you please expand on your theory that UK housing became a traded commodity because of left-wing educationalists?

    Or maybe save the G and T's until after posting?
    www.whirlwindfighterproject.org
    It's all good. Probably.

  12. #2502
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    Tony T,

    All political parties have their lunatic fringe, but personally I have little or no time for those of any group or party who rush to raise the racism flag whenever anything opposes their own dream.

    Constantly using immigration and racism in relation to the EU, is more than a little off beam, I am tired of repeating the fact that non EU immigration has consistently exceeded immigration from the EU, I listened to a Corbyn interview today, while he defended EU workers coming into the country, he also said quite clearly that the present situation of agencies recruiting abroad, of using immigrant labour to hold down wages in the UK, WAS WRONG AND WILL BE STOPPED, he was also equally clear that the present situation is only to the benefit of employers looking for cheap disposable labour.

    Defenders of immigrant workers give us the spiel that immigrants bring skills into the country, from what I have seen the bulk are actually relatively unskilled workers, who are cheap and disposable, this is abuse of both UK and immigrant workers.
    The trouble is a lot of the Brexit vote was not on quality, but quantity and if you do not do anything to stop the quantity, the average person in will still see 10 Romanians, 6 Poles and a bunch of Germans living down the street and will rightly feel aggrieved that they have not been listened too when they cast their vote of the referendum and the issues that concerned them.
    I for one didn't vote on immigration as it wasn't my concern and in a way does not effect me in my locality, I also believe it in part is a necessity. Once out of the EU then EU workers rights to come, live and work in the UK will change, and personally I think that is a step in the right direction as we then have power to curb and control those entering... Do not get me wrong I have no problem with EU citizens working here, my worry is a few years down the line, the million plus German refugees will then be a fully incorporated EU citizens, so could legitimately enter and live in the UK, that is my primary concern, a populace that have no background and no way to check it will then have freedom of movement into the UK. It almost amazed me at those in France trying to get through Calais, if they simply registered in France they could then have moved here through an open border.

    you say lunatic fringe, but there were thirty MP's signed that document, him being one of them and he is also a close ally of Corbyn


    ..
    Last edited by TonyT; 26th September 2017 at 12:21.

  13. #2503
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    Not such a close ally - Clive Lewis left the shadow cabinet in February after being whipped into accepting the triggering of article 50. He is still sore about it. He has put himself onto the lunatic fringe, and I doubt Jeremy answers his calls.
    www.whirlwindfighterproject.org
    It's all good. Probably.

  14. #2504
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    Our friends in the US of A, who were supposed to put us at the "front of the queue" (to have our backsides slapped! ;-) after Brexit, have unkindly slapped a tariff of 220% on exports of Bombardier aircraft!

    As we leave the World's biggest free trade area, it's a cruel world out there with self-interest all the way and no one gives a stuff about us! Who would have thought it! Liam Fox thinks we can get little far away countries like Uruguay and big ones like the US to replace doing business with our next door neighbours in the EU, where we sell most of our stuff....mainly because its easier and usually cheaper to sell stuff to your neighbour than someone thousands of miles away.

    In the same way it's harder for smaller countries to stand up to bigger ones...a bit like smaller countries who can't stand up to big companies like Apple, Microsoft, Google etc. unless they get, as they did recently from the EU, a multi-billion dollar fine (that's right....billions of dollars in fines.... because they hardly pay any local company tax in Europe through artificial tax arrangements....while using all of our resources, roads, communications and infrastructure all paid for by local taxpayers) for unscrupulous anti-competition practices (because companies will try to make as much money as they can (nothing wrong with that) to the detriment of the consumer and public interest unless they are regulated and called to account).

    We are going to lose out here in the UK because Boeing did not like an order by Delta Air lines for 75 C-series airliners worth $5.6 billion made by Bombardier who have a big factory in the UK. Boeing did not even compete for the Delta order because it doesn't even produce a competitor to the C-series! But Boeing believes any profits Bombardier makes may help it design a bigger aircraft to compete with Boeing so it wants to kill competitors before they become a threat to it....good for its shareholders but not for competition or for long suffering taxpayers that have to pay more for Boeing civil and military products as a result of no competition!

    Boeing have the cheek to ask for a level playing field when they are doing the complete opposite by unfairly killing competition to the detriment of taxpayers, while receiving massive subsidies themselves!

    The Canadian company has a factory in Northern Ireland employing 4,000 making the wings for its airliner and Boeing say they had government subsidies so the US should slap massive punitive tariffs on exports to the US.....and with which the US Department of Commerce has kindly obliged ;-)

    Boeing is the biggest aircraft company in the world....you would have thought needs no help itself from anyone in the way of subsidies?
    Guess who receives the biggest US subsidies?
    That's right....Boeing got the most subsidies! To the tune of $13.4 billion! That is $13.4 billion in both State and local subsidies!!
    Is it one rule for US companies and another for UK companies?

    They kill foreign competitor companies by claiming they get subsidies, while at the same time giving subsidies to their own companies! In addition to the open state and local subsidies listed in the Washington Post link below one could argue some of the massive US $600 billion defence budget is a system of hidden subsidies for US defence contractors.

    We could of course slap the same 220% tariff the Americans levied on our exports on the US companies listed below that get billions in US subsidies

    Here is a list of the main US companies that do get billions in subsidies kindly listed for us by the Washington Post!

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...=.e71abe82f292
    Last edited by Tony; 28th September 2017 at 02:05.

  15. #2505
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    What a surprise Tony? and we were lead to believe by Fox, Davies, Boris et al that countries would be flocking to the UK to sign new trade deals in our "brave" new world.......

    If only the UK were part of a far larger trade organisation that could challenge and stop these things (like the EU did to proposed US steel taxes in the mid 2000's).

  16. #2506
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    You're right AK this happened before in 2002-2003 when Bush slapped punitive tariffs on UK steel (UK high quality steel was much sought after). We appealed and Bush ignored us. We appealed to the World Trade Organisation and they found the tariffs were illegal but the Americans ignored the WTO! (a bit like the French who ignore EU rules when it suits them....remember when the French farmers burnt Welsh lamb in the trucks carrying them to France! )

    The EU threatened selective tariffs where it hurts such as Florida oranges (a key swing state where Bush's brother Jeb was governor) and the US quickly took off the illegal tariffs.

    This is happening now while we're in the EU and won't get any better once we've left. Countries with big enough clout will ride roughshod over smaller ones. A bit like the way Apple, Microsoft, Google (I include $73 billion Uber in this) treat smaller countries and cities and say what are you going to do about it? Do you want to lose our business?

    The only language they understand is when it hurts them in the pocket and they get fines of billion like the EU gave them recently in an anti-competition ruling. Tthey do billions of business here using local resources and infrastructure paid for by local taxpayers but they pay little or no local company tax because of artificial tax arrangements. When it hurts them in the pocket (billions are a drop in the ocean to them compared to their cash piles of hundreds of billions) only then do they comply with the rules and say they're sorry.
    Last edited by Tony; 28th September 2017 at 14:54.

  17. #2507
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    A warning for all those who think we will be able to trade on equal terms with the rest of the world.

  18. #2508
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    Here's a useful tip.


    Universal Declaration of Human Rights:

    "The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government. This will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections ". Article 21, (3)

    Now let me see, whom could that affect ?

  19. #2509
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    Mmmm... who could that affect?

    Is the answer:

    a. Those who lied to the Queen to state a deal with the DUP had been made to form a government when it hadn't?
    b. Those who formed an expensive and heavily weighted alliance with the DUP that nobody voted for?
    c. Those who blatantly lied to shape the results of an election?
    d. Russian interference?
    e......

    I could go on...

    Am I getting close?

  20. #2510
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    I've got one you missed - accidently !

    Those politicians and so-called commentators headed by that much loved and revered political leader Edward Heath , that in 1972 and before, conspired to deceive this country as to the true nature of the EEC/EU, issuing dire warnings if we failed to appreciate and grasp the opportunity before us. The warnings plus the donation of vast amounts of Danegeld in the shape of the CAP and the CFP did the trick.

  21. #2511
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    I'd be interested to read other opinions. I think that Mrs. May has just pleaded guilty, been sentenced to political death and is standing in front of the firing squad waiting for some helpful soul to shout fire !

    She and the Chancellor have lost any credibility in the matter of Brexit. What an opportunity they've handed gratis to the EU opposition. Napoleon Barnier and Adolf Juncker can't believe their luck. The EU can rack up the opposition in any way that they care knowing that the two GB head honchos are on their side any which way.

    I can feel a letter trembling on the brink.

  22. #2512
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    No, they are just both being realistic. The rabid element of the pro brexit morons are just so enthusiastic about the so called sovereignty position they are wiling to force a disastrous "no deal" at the expense of the rest of the country.

  23. #2513
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    There is no credibility to brexit. You can't blame her for how it is. It'd be like being asked to plan for the killing of your favourite Grandma, not something you could do with a smile on your face or with enthusiasm.

    An unplanned, ill thought out concept sold to people with lies, and a blind fixation on a perception of sovereignty, that will trash the UK and the economy for decades forward. I laugh when I see Davis who promised hundreds of new trade deals to an area far larger than the EU within 12 - 18 months of the referendum. Last time I looked 0 (zero) had been agreed. The £ continues to fall, BMW are now talking about moving production out of the UK, so are Nissan (2 significant manufacturers with a lot of jobs at stake) finance is already moving out.

  24. #2514
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    Trekie


    Well put ! This moron will certainly drink to that.

  25. #2515
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    AK

    You drink too deeply from the well of Project Fear. Forget all that guesswork rubbish you mention. What matters above everything is certainty/uncertainty. Despite the dithering of Mrs. May and the clown Hammond, all the financial signs that matter are very good.

    No one is off loading bond holdings - of which I'm aware. The EU project is still in deep stall. We won't discuss the financial woes of Spain, Italy, Greece or, political turmoil in the soon-to-be new country of Catalania. By any measure, the EU staggers from crisis to crisis.

    Why shackle yourself to a corpse ? Here, the people have had their say. It's plain that you, Trekie and BM, as three of the most rabid Remainers outside of No.11 can never be reconciled to the valid democratic vote returned on the 23rd of June last year. As painful as it is, you must live with that. You had your chance. The good sense of the British voter came thru' and arrived at the correct result.

    The nearest approximation that I can give on the question of the ditherings of May/Hammond are the arch appeasers so influential in the run up to and the start of WW2. Their efforts encouraged Adolf to the point that he began to believe that the British would not after all fight to preserve their independence. It seems to me that there is a parallel.

  26. #2516
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    Financial signs are good?, point me to this evidence JG and I’ll come over to your side immediately.....

  27. #2517
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    "...point me to this evidence..."

    At the moment my 'evidence' like your 'evidence' is largely guesswork and supposition. At this moment we have only opinion. Depending on its origin, this opinion creates either certainty or uncertainty or, a bit of each.

    The very first sign of a shift in emphasis and possibly direction, will be minor instability in our bond market over and above that which is normal.

    Given the known financial instability of at least three, possibly four of the EUs membership, it is incumbent on the ECB to maintain at all costs the stability of their bond holdings with, if need be, the assistance of the weapon of last resort; quantitative easing, altho' I understand that the Germans are not terribly keen.

    AK, I expect you to run up the white flag and ask me for terms !

  28. #2518
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    Once again, Julia Hartley-Brewer is spot on: -



    Cheers

    Paul
    The most usless commodity in aerobatics is the amount of sky above you!

  29. #2519
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    Meanwhile, Alistair Campbell proves he's no democrat, and the reason he's so much in favour of the EU (that is, power, but without accountability), and tries to justify it with the 'it's bad for the economy' and 'it will ruin the younger generations future' arguments: -



    Cheers

    Paul
    Last edited by Bradburger; 15th October 2017 at 06:42.
    The most usless commodity in aerobatics is the amount of sky above you!

  30. #2520
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    Eight or so months ago I wrote to Mrs. May suggesting that she get rid of Hammond as he would prove a liability.

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