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Thread: BREXIT - Merged thread.

  1. #2611
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    I agree with a few of your points (for instance I'd like to see consistent, proportionate and effective punishment for crime that causes enough "pain" to be both a deterrent and suitable punishment), I disagree with others (particularly bully boys are very evidently a thing of the political right, recent events show that only too clearly).

    Putting that aside, and genuine observation? why is it that in your perception these streams of government "attract" your "socialist" people? Is it not for the political right to "sell" their ideal to such a degree that people want to be a part of it? it's not a case of left-wingers being forced into these roles, so there must be some underlying influence? before you respond it's not mass "brainwashing" by the education system at fault!

    I'd also observe that the labour/socialist movement grew considerably in response to the greedy factory owners and landed gentry and the likes of the day who treated the working class as expendable and in many cases a quite appalling manner. I think maybe these people still live on in a modern flavour and can be seen in recent scandals such as pensions (BHS etc.) companies, people avoiding taxes, H&S violations, and perhaps the reaction to that remains?
    Last edited by Agent K; 26th October 2017 at 15:24.

  2. #2612
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    No, John, read it again. You missed it again. You made out to SF that you don't like being called tory when you are not, just because you have illiberal views. Yet you indiscriminately call people with liberal views socialist. That was the point you missed.

    As for the political hue of the civil service.. really? Elephant in the room time. Is it not possible that civil servants tend to have a more-than-averagely educated idea of just what the hell is going on? If sometimes they balk at what politicians (not really there for their brains, in this country where intellect is suspect) want to do, is it because they are lefties? Bit like the 'remainers are lefties' argument.

    I only really know one real socialist well enough to call a friend. Last night we were talking about the EU. He voted leave as to an actual socialist the EU represents an international coalition of capitalists. He also believes the judiciary are too lax, educational standards are too low (which he reckons has caused a swing to the right in England) and we have lost some of our more worthwhile traditional values.

    OK, a sample of one, but you get the point.
    Last edited by Beermat; 26th October 2017 at 20:13.

  3. #2613
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    Yes. I get the point. And what, I wonder, does he think is responsible ?

  4. #2614
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    John
    You don't like being branded Tory, OK, must say if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks, very good chance it's a duck, that aside, one little query, if every Remainer, every one who has an open liberal view of life and living, is a rabid indoctrinated Socialist, how come the Labour party aren't in government with a huge majority?

    Certainly would agree that in far too many cases our legal system can be over lenient, that consistency is sadly lacking in too many cases, but whatever makes you believe that this is down to some form of Socialist thinking?

  5. #2615
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    John, he is a socialist. He therefore, of course, thinks capitalism is responsible. To me that is as unlikely as socialism being responsible, but then I am not an '-ist'.
    Last edited by Beermat; 26th October 2017 at 21:27.

  6. #2616
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    I see you're still at it (arguing/discussing...take your pick) 16 months after the vote.

    With the wide Atlantic safely separating us from the crisis (just like 1914 and 1939 ) allow me to ask some questions...

    -If the EU is so benign, why are they making it so tough for the UK to depart? They do seem to want a pound of flesh for the UK being nervy enough to reestablish its sovereignty.

    -How will the EU respond to current events in Spain?
    Will it encourage Catalonian independence (thus creating a possible new member)?
    -If so, will it support Scottish independence (thus getting back some if the income or power lost when the UK left)?

    If the answer to both of those situations is "no"... should one ask whether the EU's priority is with the will of the people (one could argue its response to BREXIT seems to be "no" since it's not making it easy or inexpensive for the UK to leave) or protecting itself and the status quo?
    Last edited by J Boyle; 30th October 2017 at 02:00.
    There are two sides to every story. The truth is usually somewhere between the two.

  7. #2617
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    'At it'?

    The sovereignity point aside, the reason it's difficult and will be expensive to leave is because it is difficult and will be expensive. No one is making it so, beyond the EU reminding us of the obligations which we signed up to. It is not personal, though May is doing her best to make it so, and it's not some evil foreigner-type plan. The EU has better things to worry about. We just aren't as important as we think we are, and the truth is they owe us nothing. That it will be very costly and damaging to our economy was one of the remainers points.

    You will find that the EU's response has been to remind the Spanish state, which never really got the hang of civil liberties, of its obligations to maintain freedoms, the rule of law and peace. Spain benefits from EU membership, and I would conjecture that the reason there are not tanks on the streets right now has a lot to do with this.
    Last edited by Beermat; 28th October 2017 at 12:12.

  8. #2618
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    It's all good though.................... (some here would have you believe)

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41803604

  9. #2619
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    Project Fear meanders on.

  10. #2620
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    The project fear line has truly run its course and died. At some point, if your intellect allows you, one has to listen to the experts, Bloomberg, Banking etc. etc. and acknowledge that they know their business and know what they are talking about and also see with your own eyes what is happening.

    You wouldn't, after all, dismiss a negative prognosis from a cancer surgeon and keep on repeating the mantra that the ward cleaner said you'll be OK....

    I'm far more interested (and indeed worried) about what the likes of the Murdoch's, Rothermere, Desmond, Lebedev, Barclay's etc. (all domiciled overseas - sovereignty anyone?), yet bearing a disproportionate and deeply concerning influence in GB politics are seeking. That's fear.....

  11. #2621
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    If by 'project fear' you mean the reporting of facts, such as what the Bank of England predict, then yes, I suppose it does.

    The whole concept of 'project fear' is a crock of crap made up by those desperate to avoid the facing of reality. You may be one of last people in the UK to realise this.

  12. #2622
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    A sad indictment of the modern age and not helped by the likes of the current American president. If you don't like what is being reported, even facts and truth, you block your ears and shout "Fake News" or "Project Fear" repetitively. However, as we are seeing, the truth sticks....

  13. #2623
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    You mean your version.

  14. #2624
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    As I said.....

  15. #2625
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    Nothing to see here, FT lies, it’s all fine.....

    https://www.ft.com/content/a3420266-...6-b25f8adaa111

  16. #2626
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  17. #2627
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    No it doesn't, and Dowd did not forget anything. It is an excuse to quote a government minister at length in her criticism of the opposition (for opposing, apparently) by a newspaper that seizes on such 'opportunities' to present such things as political 'news'.

    It does not say it all. In fact it says almost nothing, and what it does say is made up with the fragile 'get out' of using 'quotes' like those around the word 'forgets'.

    Worse than sub-standard journalism.

    What is happening here, for those prepared to step back and look at it, is a government expecting a disaster of their own making and preparing the ground to blame the opposition for it. The pretend newspapers are playing along, nicely 'on message' and following their central office brief.

    Whatever the rights and wrongs of exit, the opposition want it made clear to everyone what May is risking with her 'no deal is better' strategy, and Perry was making out that it isn't necessary to have that kind of clarity - at the same time as calling it a serious national debate.

    All this talk of 'ancient laws' being used as if it was some kind of dirty trick - all the opposition want is a report that the government are keeping secret made available for parliamentary scrutiny.

    Strange that this wasn't the comic's take on things, isn't it? So no, the Express are definitely not saying it all.

    And yes, it is a comic. They even CAPITALISE things that they want to EMPHASISE. It increasingly reads like a maladjusted teenager's Youtube comments.
    Last edited by Beermat; 2nd November 2017 at 10:13.
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    It's all good. Probably.

  18. #2628
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    Is there a possibility that one day you will run out of lame excuses ?

  19. #2629
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    Except that I have written no excuses, John. I think decades of reading tory scribllings has affected your powers of comprehension.

    Seems to be rife amongst advocates of May's suicide squad approach.
    Last edited by Beermat; 2nd November 2017 at 12:38.
    www.whirlwindfighterproject.org
    It's all good. Probably.

  20. #2630
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    I think that if anyone has to take the blame for 'affecting my powers of comprehension' it would have to be you. I've tried - in vain, to decipher most of your comments. I'm now afflicted - please be patient.

  21. #2631
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    Hearing you strength 5 and crystal clear Beermat and in agreement. If anybody really tries to take the once great Daily Express seriously, then I fear the issue doesn't lie in your musings.

  22. #2632
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    Tell you what, John. I'll write it in tabloid-speak, so the hard-of-thinking can understand:


    RED TROT Dowd wants MP's to see a report that makes GREAT country-boss May look like a plonker. A lady MP with great legs says no.

    The DAILY W NK says "All labourites are STUPID, because the Government say so. OFFICIAL". Now watch this video of someone else saying that, which we recorded off the telly, to prove it's true.

    Beermat SAVAGELY pointed this out.



    Do you follow now?
    Last edited by Beermat; 2nd November 2017 at 14:43.
    www.whirlwindfighterproject.org
    It's all good. Probably.

  23. #2633
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    You forgot to mention Princess Diana Beeermat which, surely, is fundamental for the Daily Express speak???

  24. #2634
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    You seem suspiciously well practiced, in a Fred Kite sort of way. Must be the 'shine' that that poly put on your education !

  25. #2635
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    Was that supposed to be an insult aimed at me? It missed - and not just because I didn't attend a Polytechnic.

    Frankly your borish and ill-informed snobbery is as tedious as it is anachronistic (Fred Kite? Really?)

    We are still waiting to hear which particular hallowed seat of learning shaped you the way it did.
    Last edited by Beermat; 2nd November 2017 at 19:28.

  26. #2636
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    Is the Daily Express still classified as a "newspaper"? thought it was the propaganda arm of Tory Central office, ah well we all live and learn, or possibly not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  27. #2637
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    More truly appalling Brexit news !!

    For the eighth successive year exports to non EU nations have exceeded EU exports. This year the percent increase is 8.3%. Just 2.8% increase went to the EU.

    Source: ONS

  28. #2638
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    But if course 8.3% on a minority amount vs. 2.8% of a majority amount isn't quite so noteworthy.....

    ....and also these exports will have been made through the EU trade framework, and despite promises made by DD and the floundering brexit negotiators not one deal has been negotiated with any country, so once the UK leaves the EU, WTO rules will apply which I suspect will severely impact that currently minority trade anyway.

    Not quite so rosy as that story may appear to the simpler amongst us.....

  29. #2639
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    No, but all going in the 'right' direction !

  30. #2640
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    A view expressed by the captain of the Titanic, before the iceberg got in the way.

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