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Thread: BREXIT - Merged thread.

  1. #2401
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    Paul. You applaud someone bringing a subject up when they agree with your world view, then say it's not something you care about when someone who doesn't agree with your world view speaks. That says more about you than the subject.

    What is a shame is how blinkered intelligent people can be - especially when it comes to nationhood.

    Regarding self-governence - if you or anyone can point to how you have been oppressed or undemocratically put upon by anyone outside of our own independently acting Government then 'remoaners' would accept it. But no-one really has. So all that is left is a rational analysis of pros and cons. Eventually only those who's nationalism is stronger than their willingness to approach the subject with brain engaged will be left in the Brexit camp. We are not there yet.. plenty of smart Brexiters are still thinking about it.

    You missed my point. Remoaners want to be wrong for the sake of our economy - something that does affect our everyday lives in a way that the humdrum regulations necessary to maintain a shared trading block and business community do not.
    Last edited by Beermat; 22nd August 2017 at 11:17.

  2. #2402
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    BM - along with many of your persuasion you hugely over complicate the argument.

    I along with many of my persuasion simply prefer independent nationhood to a nationhood subsumed to an amorphous semi-autocratic federation, which is precisely the openly stated aim of the EU autocracy.

    I fear the the blinkers are being worn by remainers.

  3. #2403
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    You need some sense, understanding and appreciation of our national history to present an argument that is relevant to the subject. You and a few million others are unable to make much of that argument because you are the product of a left of center educational system that, as much as anything else, was determined to impose on society a people who subscribed to a world without differences. A beige world. A world where there were no winners or losers. A world where pre-eminence and achievement would carry no value and all would have prizes.

    As a part of that educational conditioning, you will not ever be able to understand how GB with its long history of campaigning against tyranny could ever conceivably bow its knee to foreign rule, e.g the EU. The fact that for a short time we did, says much about the lack of quality and judgment of those politicians who put us there in the first place.

    No one who has been witness to the continuous scheming machinations and political skulduggery of the power crazed political elite of the European Commission, can have any remaining doubt about the wisdom of leaving. Permit me to remind all those who constantly harp on about GB's economy; since Referendum Day or, as I prefer, Independence Day, 50 billion pounds of inward investment has inserted itself into our economy.

  4. #2404
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    Wut e said.

  5. #2405
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    Regarding self-governence - if you or anyone can point to how you have been oppressed or undemocratically put upon by anyone outside of our own independently acting Government then 'remoaners' would accept it.
    Isn't the fact that EU law is superior to our own law an oppression, or 'us' being undemocratically put upon, especially when NONE of the UK electorate ever voted for us to be in such a position!

    As for me applauding a subject when someone doesn't agree with my own views or position on that subject, then one could argue that you, or many others are guilty of the same.

    (Just take a look back through this thread for some great examples!)

    AK linked yet another survey which can hardly be taken as a true indicator for the future, because we haven't actually left the EU yet, and who knows how many of these people who answered this survey will have changed their position months or years down the line?

    And all those who accuse people of being selfish for wanting to hold on to their country's right to self govern, well, let them continue to do so.

    What is a shame is how blinkered intelligent people can be - especially when it comes to nationhood.
    Well, I couldn't agree more!

    Cheers

    Paul
    Last edited by Bradburger; 22nd August 2017 at 14:06.
    The most usless commodity in aerobatics is the amount of sky above you!

  6. #2406
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    Clearly your right of centre history education spent too much time teaching you the earth is flat earth and dismissing Darwin's radical papers....

    Romans, Vikings, Normans, German influence within the royal family..... like it or not England, the UK, GB has always been inextricably linked with Europe.

  7. #2407
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    AK,

    That might well be the case.

    (Not quite sure what your first paragraph was about, though - a load of false assumptions again - it seems I touched a raw nerve!)

    But what exactly is your point?

    Just because of these past historical ties, you are saying we should accept the rule of a political union, which we never voted to join?

    I don't think you need much of an education to see that this train of thought and logic, is deeply flawed!

    Cheers

    Paul
    Last edited by Bradburger; 22nd August 2017 at 15:00.
    The most usless commodity in aerobatics is the amount of sky above you!

  8. #2408
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    Bradburger, scroll up, mine was a response to JG's post, not yours.......

  9. #2409
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    AK

    My 'middle of the road' education, was not slanted to either the political left or the political right of center. My education was apolitical and eyebrows would have been more than raised if it had been anything else. For you perhaps, it is a strange concept to try to understand that State education, certainly in my formative years, was not in the least politicised.

    For many of the reasons set out in "Britain, Birth of the Modern World", Ben Wilson, Britain was the world's first superpower. Rightly or wrongly, this country is still conscious of that role. Expectations still fly high and are frequently unrewarded. Nevertheless, as you correctly point out, GB's affairs have been interwoven with Europe very often for the wrong reasons but also, when it really mattered for all the right ones.

    The right ones mattered most because we acted as the flag bearer to thwart tyranny and free the people of Europe. That is what makes us different. That is why others can live with political subservience but GB cannot. That is why we cannot be part of a political binding; a federation of European states.

  10. #2410
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    " That is why we cannot be part of a political binding; a federation of European states."

    And I remain unconvinced that all of the remaining 26 will want to be part of the proposed EU State, when and if it ever comes to pass. I think the opposite will happen long before federation. At least we got out before the rush for the exit!

  11. #2411
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    Regarding self-governence - if you or anyone can point to how you have been oppressed or undemocratically put upon by anyone outside of our own independently acting Government then 'remoaners' would accept it.
    Define Undemocratic, as the EU commissioners, none of which have been elected by any democratically empowered electorate that I know off, produce the laws and rules of the EU, the only part the democratically appointed EU MEP's have a say in the matter is in declining or accepting those rules via a vote.
    The laws put before them being produced by a none elected commission. Early on when the EU main rules and regulations were being formed they were simply their to debate as a consultation forum with no powers.. Hardly what one would describe as democratic.

    http://www.europarl.europa.eu/aboutp...-Plenary-works

    This sums it up nicely

    The European Parliament may approve or reject a legislative proposal, or propose amendments to it. The Council is not legally obliged to take account of Parliament's opinion but in line with the case-law of the Court of Justice, it must not take a decision without having received it.
    http://www.europarl.europa.eu/aboutp...and-procedures
    Last edited by TonyT; 22nd August 2017 at 15:52.

  12. #2412
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    Bradburger, scroll up, mine was a response to JG's post, not yours.......
    Apologies AK!



    Cheers

    Paul
    The most usless commodity in aerobatics is the amount of sky above you!

  13. #2413
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    https://amp.theguardian.com/politics...pay-for-brexit

    Don't tell me we were lied to by BJ. Who'd have thought.....

  14. #2414
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    Typical Grauniad spin. He said they could whistle for 100 million not for any justifiable and accountable amount.

    And so the public spatting and politicking continues. Just wish they'd all zip it and get down to some grown up negotiation.

  15. #2415
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    As soon as someone finds something to negotiate with they might. But right now I'm ******** if I know what that is. We used to be able to say 'we'll walk out'.. we had the power of veto. When will the Bullxiters understand what the situation now is?
    Last edited by Beermat; 27th August 2017 at 19:53.

  16. #2416
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    Tony, the British Government (ie ministers in their paid capacity of department heads, not MP's) draft laws and then MP's vote on them. It is deliberately that way to separate Parliament from Government.

    The EU follow the same system, only more assiduously.

    Constitutionally British ministers are not allowed to be democratically elected MP's, even though most are. It is a law that has been ignored since Walpole. Ours is a less pure system than Brussels, and runs on a flouting of its own rules.
    Last edited by Beermat; 29th August 2017 at 18:18.

  17. #2417
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  18. #2418
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    From the Independent ? No credibility.

  19. #2419
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    Are you saying they made it all up, or is it just that they are willing to provide an alternative to the blinkered, biased and rabidly probrexit Torygraph and Mail and should therefore be ignored?

  20. #2420
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    Its not a million miles from commenting that because of rather alarming uncertainties connected with the American Govt. GB as the largest foreign investor should be thinking of pulling out.

    Both the Indy and the other rag are destined for the chop - trust me.

    I really can't imagine how they get away with that rubbish. Must be something to do with the quality of the readership.

  21. #2421
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    JG you really need to open your eyes if you think it's going anything other than disastrous out there. To just say it's just bad press is the kind of laughable response Trump would issue.

    Whilst I know the papers you promote are too busy returning again and again to Diana's death, blaming immigrants etc., others out there are prepared to report on what is really happening.

  22. #2422
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    I guess we could always refer to the good and sensible Swiss press, or is that fake news too?
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  23. #2423
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    I don't know much about this Swiss rag other than they appear to have deliberately chosen an unflattering photo of our illustrious leader.

    They really need to read more news. They need to be looking in the direction of the USA, polish their crystal ball and try some scare mongering in that direction.

    If Der Bund would like to contact me I'll provide chapter and verse as to what is happening in this country. I take it that their title means that they publish in the German language ?

    It would be much more useful and serve a wider purpose if they paid some attention to the doings of Mutti, particularly highlighting her attempt to destroy Europe from within. Heaven forbid that she should be re-elected.

  24. #2424
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    AK

    I don't wish to over promote you but, I think that if more like you had been in charge of the countries fortunes during critical phases of our history, we'd have rolled over to have our collective tummies tickled while handing the keys to the current oppressor.

    Just be thankful that an awkward git like me isn't in charge. We'd now be at war !

  25. #2425
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    Thankfully our armed forces and right wing politics are not inextricably linked, this didn't work out too well for the people of Fermany, Argentina, Chile to name a few. There are a good cross section from across the spectrum who have as much passion and loyalty to their country as anybody.

    Granted a few of today's politicians don't seem to have the strength of character require in troubling times.

  26. #2426
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    We get the politicians we deserve.

    We as a nation do not have the strength of character to face up to reality, forget about Di Spencer, stop blaming everybody else and open our eyes.

    Umtil we do we will comtinue to read the papers that offer comforting yet false narratives and vote for comforting yet false people like May.
    Last edited by Beermat; 4th September 2017 at 08:34.

  27. #2427
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    'Comforting yet false' - I like that BM - but it doesn't just apply to the Tories! I guess there are degrees of comfort and falsehood...

  28. #2428
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    Is it just my age or has politics become totally cheap and depressing across the entire spectrum? "Comforting yet false". I don't see much evidence of comfort among the current crop.

  29. #2429
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    Paul, agreed, cheap and depressing, few of the current leadership and executive across all parties inspires me. They seem to work at the behest of their paymasters agendas (unions, press moguls etc.) and not represent the majority.

    Comforting as BM says in that a lot of the press feeds their readers what they want to hear (false or not) that reassures and vindicates their choices.

  30. #2430
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    I'm not so sure. False comfort I fear. I voted Brexit for my own very clear reasons but I take little comfort from some of the tripe the Brexit supporting press publish. And the same goes for the other side too.

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