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Thread: Eurofighter Typhoon discussion and news 2015

  1. #2431
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    Quote Originally Posted by swerve View Post
    Bandua -

    That's only enough to fill the two carriers, with none in reserve, no attrition replacements, etc., so if you actually wanted to be able to operate both carriers simultaneously, it wouldn't be enough.
    According to current plans, both carriers aren’t going to be operated simultaneously. And so far, docs show 2 FAA squadrons and 2 RAF squadrons post-2025. 72 aircraft might be too few, but 138 would be excessive to fill 4 squadrons. Taking the Typhoon as an example, 130+ (Out of 148 total order) current aircraft inventory with 5 combat squadrons (7 squadrons planned).

    Likely (at lest it makes sense) for UK to have at least the 4 planned F-35B squadrons. That would require something close to 90 aircraft to support those squadrons to the planned out of service date.
    Last edited by FBW; 22nd May 2018 at 23:26.

  2. #2432
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    While some further development of typhoon is to be expected, I don't think the extent of this development might introduce that much uncertainty regarding affordability. Besides I think it's very likey that most of these R&D might be included in future upgrades of the typhoon fleet anyway.

  3. #2433
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    SpudmanWP,

    Of course, the cost might be different depending on whether one or two versions are operated. At this point and regarding only costs it's possible that simplifying logistics on the F35B it's cheaper than getting F35B + F35A. My take is that the difference might not be that big an that F35A is a better performing platform. But regarding costs, GAO report after GAO report we see that the different services of the US face extreme uncertainty regarding sustainability of their respective fleets. Costs keep rising and although we have to expect them to reach a plateau at some point, I honestly think none of the buyers have a real idea on that point. LM says buy more and it would be cheaper, this of course make sense but on the other hand you still don't know exactly what "cheaper" means.

  4. #2434
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    Where do you see costs "rising". Go dig up SAR reports and track the trends year over year and get back to me.
    "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

  5. #2435
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    Quote Originally Posted by bandua View Post
    Of course, the cost might be different depending on whether one or two versions are operated. At this point and regarding only costs it's possible that simplifying logistics on the F35B it's cheaper than getting F35B + F35A.
    I don't think a mixed fleet would be more expensive. Rather less expensive with every F-35 that isn't a B. Reason is the B is more or less an A, but with lots of moving parts added. Think of all the doors, actuators and stuff, nice. The A on the other hand has the gun and there's structural differences. But structures are less maintenance intensive I'd say...

    If I were in charge, I'd get enough Bs to fully equip the one carrier, with reserves etc. That's 36 aircraft times 2 plus some attrition replacement, something like 18, so the already mentioned 90 jets seem like a good number.
    If things really go south (pun intended...), 90 is enough to send two carriers in emergency mode.
    How can less be more? It's impossible. More is more.
    Yngwie Malmsteen

  6. #2436
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    So there is an initiative in Indonesia to attempt to acquire Typhoon. Thing is i wonder whether it's availability or due to budget constraints, we are only able to acquire Tranche-1.

    and from what i heard these aircraft have rather limited capability (no full A2G modes) and such, but does support meteor. I'm curious if it would be expensive to upgrade or at least bring these aircraft into a good shape, with ability to support standoff missile or guided bombs.

  7. #2437
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    Stealthflanker, I don't think there is much chance of an upgrade to a T1 beyond what was done last decade. It remains an excellent interceptor and fighter, but will be limited to dropping LGB in some form.

    Whose T1 are you supposed to buy?

  8. #2438
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    As to equipping both carriers with F35s, that is a Chimera. The plan is one in service at any one time, so 138 is too many. If we say 60-90 is what is needed, then a reduction in numbers with an increase in Typhoon (actually likely not much more than reinstating the T3B order numbers) is not that momentous a shift is it?

    It just reflects the reality of 2020 instead of the late 90s. It's not a slight to the US (dear god, how much UK procurement actually comes from the US after all).

  9. #2439
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    There are plenty of times that both carriers can be operational at the same time. Add to that the fact that fighter wings also need to rotate through update/training/rest cycles and you can easily see why you need at least 48.

    The reason why they initially specified an all-F-35B force is for commonality and ease of basing wherever they go, just as they do with the Harrier.
    "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

  10. #2440
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    Well, i heard the ambassador of UK inFrance saying the opposite during the elaboration of the former whit cbook in public hearings. The reason is cost of implementing catapult systems (above two billions)

  11. #2441
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    FBW:
    According to current plans, both carriers aren’t going to be operated simultaneously. And so far, docs show 2 FAA squadrons and 2 RAF squadrons post-2025. 72 aircraft might be too few, but 138 would be excessive to fill 4 squadrons. Taking the Typhoon as an example, 130+ (Out of 148 total order) current aircraft inventory with 5 combat squadrons (7 squadrons planned).
    The UK's ordered 160 Typhoon: 53 T1, 67 T2 & 40 T3.

    SpudmanWP:
    There are plenty of times that both carriers can be operational at the same time. Add to that the fact that fighter wings also need to rotate through update/training/rest cycles and you can easily see why you need at least 48.

    The reason why they initially specified an all-F-35B force is for commonality and ease of basing wherever they go, just as they do with the Harrier.
    Exactly. To operate a single carrier at full capacity, without any land-based operations, more than 48 would be needed. And it's been officially stated many times that commonality dictates a single type.
    Last edited by swerve; 23rd May 2018 at 21:48.
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  12. #2442
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    So there is an initiative in Indonesia to attempt to acquire Typhoon. Thing is i wonder whether it's availability or due to budget constraints, we are only able to acquire Tranche-1.

    and from what i heard these aircraft have rather limited capability (no full A2G modes) and such, but does support meteor. I'm curious if it would be expensive to upgrade or at least bring these aircraft into a good shape, with ability to support standoff missile or guided bombs.
    Really?? Indonesia wants to explore buying used T1 Typhoons with their limited capabilities? Why not just buy more Su-35S? Totally puzzling procurement policies.

  13. #2443
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    Bandua: somebody just seems to have Heard your doubts around the "rising cost" of the F-35.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/video...-35-deal-video



    SOURCE:
    Bloomberg

  14. #2444
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    Really?? Indonesia wants to explore buying used T1 Typhoons with their limited capabilities? Why not just buy more Su-35S? Totally puzzling procurement policies.
    Welcome to our confusing procurement policy. It's just a concept tho but still.. kinda shivering. Originally Typhoons were offered, new built with options for assembly in the country. However there was change on requirements which could blow Typhoon's cost out of proportion, F-15 is a non starter, Gripen wants to fill another squadron and AEW's. That was supposedly the end of Typhoon here. BUT recently i heard MOD wants to explore second hand O-o which kind of weird.

  15. #2445
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    Really?? Indonesia wants to explore buying used T1 Typhoons with their limited capabilities? Why not just buy more Su-35S? Totally puzzling procurement policies.
    A good excuse for the UK to backfill with new Typhoons at a reduced (or rather offset) cost?! (maybe this is what is leading the discussion for new purchases?)

  16. #2446
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    Hi, can someone explain to me the situation with RAF's Eurofighters? Just how many of them are Tranche 1? I have found the figures of 55 or 60 delivered to RAF. But are all in service? Or have some been retired? And have some been modernized to use air to ground weaponry? How many?

    And when will those Typhoons in service receive Meteor missiles? I read tactics development has been studied with actual Meteors within RAF this year, but when will actual deliveries to front line squadron start? How many Meteors have been ordered?
    Last edited by totoro; 10th July 2018 at 08:08.

  17. #2447
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    The first of the Project Centurion Typhoons are now with the RAF:

    http://www.janes.com/article/81570/r...ado-retirement

    All the details on fleet numbers and standards are on that article as it happens.

  18. #2448
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    The RAF fields 51 Tranche 1, 67 Tranche 2 and about 10 of its planned 40 Tranche 3 Typhoons. The 24 Tranche 1 Typhoons that are to be retained will be used in an air defence role only and will not receive the Project Centurion upgrade.
    Easier

    27 T1 will be discarded (or available for purchase?).

  19. #2449
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    27 T1 will be discarded (or available for purchase?).
    Most certainly neither, part of those 27 airframes are in the Falklands and several twin seaters are with 29 Sqn, the Typhoon OCU. Expect the several airframes to be rotated through the two front line sqns and the OCU.

  20. #2450
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    20 something Typhoon in the Falklands?! Isn't that too much? Are the UK planning to annex Buenos Aires and Santiago to make for the Brexit?

  21. #2451
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    Read it again: "part of those 27 airframes".

    IIRC there are usually four there, divided between a lot more (16?) shelters.
    Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
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  22. #2452
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    totoro:
    Hi, can someone explain to me the situation with RAF's Eurofighters? Just how many of them are Tranche 1? I have found the figures of 55 or 60 delivered to RAF. But are all in service? Or have some been retired? And have some been modernized to use air to ground weaponry? How many?
    53 T1 built for the UK, of which a couple have been lost.

    The first air to ground weapons were integrated on T1 rather a long time ago, Paveway II & EPW II about 10 years ago.
    Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
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  23. #2453
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    Thanks! So ALL t1 planes can drop smart bombs? Even the two seater trainers?

  24. #2454
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    I don't know how many had the necessary software installed.
    Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
    Justinian

  25. #2455
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    https://www.airforce-technology.com/...on-retrofit-2/

    this suggests 43 T1 Typhoons got the upgrade for Paveways.

    Which brings me to another question: have any of the RAF's Typhoons so far been conserved/stored?

    Allegedly 149 Typhoons of all tranches have been delivered to RAF so far. Some have been lost in accidents, but are also some just not used actively?

  26. #2456
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    Quote Originally Posted by totoro View Post

    Which brings me to another question: have any of the RAF's Typhoons so far been conserved/stored?

    Allegedly 149 Typhoons of all tranches have been delivered to RAF so far. Some have been lost in accidents, but are also some just not used actively?
    No, no RAF Phoon has been stored.

  27. #2457
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    Sintra wrote No, no RAF Phoon has been stored.

    There are about 9 Typhoons stored at Shawbury
    Also 3 or 4 stored at Coningsby
    Plus some undergoing RTP at Coningsby then scrapped
    Plus a few frames in storage at Warton
    HQ2 out

  28. #2458
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    Sintra wrote No, no RAF Phoon has been stored.

    There are about 9 Typhoons stored at Shawbury
    Also 3 or 4 stored at Coningsby
    Plus some undergoing RTP at Coningsby then scrapped
    Plus a few frames in storage at Warton
    Thanks for the correction Havequick.

    Cheers

  29. #2459
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    So it's not just Tempest that will lead to Typhoon enhancements, although Typhoon is slated to field/refine a wedge of the new technology for the Team Tempest programme:

    https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...cas-tr-450389/

    Eurofighter have displayed a mock-up at Farnborough which features the aerodynamic improvements as well as a range of weapons including the JSM. SPEAR3 is also planned for RAF Typhoon now, as well as the F35s.

  30. #2460
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    I believe the RAF have only lost one Typhoon, a landing accident in the USA. The jet was almost brand new at the time and was being used by the Typhoon OEU (41 sqn today, I think 17sqn at the time)

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