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Thread: Eurofighter Typhoon discussion and news 2015

  1. #2401
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    That was not the conclusion of the new administration. As said:
    - somewhere I posted the link to the senate report
    - MoD ordered some drastic improvement lashing at the status-quo making a clear point that this would be achieved at equal cost for the public

    But we are not going to argue this case in the Typhoon thread. It would show some disrespect to the readers.

  2. #2402
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    On a related note

    Bundeswehr pilots can't get enough flight time amid helicopter shortages and are losing their flying licenses as a result. The report is the latest to shed light on the embarrassing state of Germany's armed forces.

    More than one-in-10 helicopter pilots in the Bundeswehr lost their flying license in 2017 because they could not absolve the required amount of flight time, the government said on Thursday.
    More at the jump
    http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...ight-time.html
    "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

  3. #2403
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    ^ Are there any political consequences of this for the defense minister and other high ranking political and permanent defense ministry officials?
    Old radar types never die; they just phased array

  4. #2404
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    ^ Are there any political consequences of this for the defense minister and other high ranking political and permanent defense ministry officials?
    Nope. I mean she did a stellar job. Thanks to her efforts there are new uniforms for pregnant female soldiers, new kindergardens and the MoD paid 300 million Euro in advance to consulting companies (just in case they need consulting at some point). Meanwhile they closed the Marinearsenal Kiel and the Luftwaffendepot in Erding to save costs. Unfortunately logistics are now a mess. Which nobody could have guessed, honestly.

  5. #2405
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    Thanks to her efforts there are new uniforms for pregnant female soldiers, new kindergardens and the MoD paid 300 million Euro in advance to consulting companies (just in case they need consulting at some point). Meanwhile they closed the Marinearsenal Kiel and the Luftwaffendepot in Erding to save costs. Unfortunately logistics are now a mess. Which nobody could have guessed, honestly.
    See, that's why it was good idea to pay advance for consulting companies, now they can help!

  6. #2406
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    Reports starting to circulate that the UK MOD is considering a Super Typhoon instead of further F35 purchases beyond the 48 F35Bs....


    https://twitter.com/RAeSTimR/status/997013532964253698

  7. #2407
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    And what about those 2 ships? Are those big deck only to play Dominos*?



    Source:
    https://www.ddcoatings.co.uk/1275/ne...rcraft-carrier

    *Oh, let me guess, you gonna sell them to Egypt.
    Last edited by TomcatViP; 17th May 2018 at 12:40.

  8. #2408
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    And what about those 2 ships? Are those big deck only to play Dominos*?
    Bowling seems more appropriate...

    The F-35B is very expensive, perhaps they are really considering to reduce the numbers!?

  9. #2409
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrmalaya View Post
    Reports starting to circulate that the UK MOD is considering a Super Typhoon instead of further F35 purchases beyond the 48 F35Bs....


    https://twitter.com/RAeSTimR/status/997013532964253698
    I think we will hear a considerable amount of news like this for the next several years. Everything post-2025 is up in the air. What is certain is 48 F-35B between now and then.

    To be honest, I've never understood the MoD justification of 138 F-35B to equip four frontline squadrons and an OCU. I'd be curious if they based those projections on historical attrition, fatigue, and retirement of previous fleets like the Harrier.

    Typically, the US and UK allocate about 1/3 of a fleet for training, weapons testing, attrition, maintenance, and backup inventory. That would require a fleet of ~90 F-35B.

    If I were betting man, I'd expect MoD to procure enough F-35B to equip four squadrons. The flexibility provided by basing those on the QE class, and pooling between the RN and RAF will be attractive to the strained defense budget. In other words, final procurement of the F-35B will be north of the 48 currently planned.

    There had been some talk about procuring "A" models post-2025. Here is where a further buy of Typhoons is possible. Certainly it is attractive from the perspective of UK industry participation. Not to mention those Tranche 1's will need replacement post-2030. Considering the tight money in the defense budget, it is impossible to predict what the final decisions will be. But I believe those Carriers will become the lynchpin of UK defense planning. And those Carriers need a viable fast jet contingent,

  10. #2410
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    If they go the Super Typhoon road (whatever "Super" means for any operational credibility for a plane built to be spearheading the 1990s RAF then forced into this role for the 2020s), the consequences are:
    - new Tyhoons dev, production, training...
    - New supporting hardware like expensive stealthy autonomous UCAV
    - Full commitment to the Franco-German future manned platform designed to offer not much more than an F-35 does today with all the public expenses to be expected
    - A frantic fight (with all the diplomatic consequences) to get more than a symbolic folding seat as an industrial partner

    And probably, at one time or another, more F-35 to fill any Urgent operation needs that will invariably surface...
    Last edited by TomcatViP; 17th May 2018 at 15:34.

  11. #2411
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    If they go the Super Typhoon road (whatever "Super" means for any operational credibility for a plane built to be spearheading the 1990s RAF then forced into this role for the 2020s), the consequences are:
    - new Tyhoons dev, production, training...
    - New supporting hardware like expensive stealthy autonomous UCAV
    - Full commitment to the Franco-German future manned platform designed to offer not much more than an F-35 does today with all the public expenses to be expected
    - A frantic fight (with all the diplomatic consequences) to get more than a symbolic folding seat as an industrial partner

    And probably, at one time or another, more F-35 to feel any Urgent operation needs that will surface...
    Don't forget there is a massive synergy between F-35 and 4.5 gen fighter jets like Typhoon.

    Only in the most demanding environments will a 100% 5. gen fighter fleet be needed. In many cases you can fly 1 F-35 with 3 Typhoon/SH/Rafale/F-16/Gripen and benefit from this.

    Maybe they could integrate a better datalink in the Typhoon, add CFTs and voila you got a very powerful bomb/missile truck to supplement the F-35.

  12. #2412
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    I think we will buy more than 48 F35Bs but have said for a long time that the 138 figure was too many and would end UK domestic fighter production.

    A mega Typhoon is necessarily more than an engine and cft upgrade if it is to support UK industry into the future, and will boost exports, industrial growth and possibly fleet size whilst having no effect on the utility of the two carriers at all.

    It makes much more sense to the UK than a historically out-dated commitment to the F35 in such numbers that it kills interest in UCAV and fighter development for decades to come.

  13. #2413
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    I think it will be 138 but will be a mix of As and Bs. There are some things the B can't do, it makes a good replacement for the Harrier but a poor replacement for the Tornado, an A on the other hand would be an excellent replacement for Tornado.

  14. #2414
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    @Loke: I totally agrees: the benefits of traditional fighter assets are a plus to any air forces fielding the 5th gen aircrafts.

  15. #2415
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    This was exemplified in the recent exercise where 2 x F-35s shielded 4 x F-16s vs a force of 8 x F-16s. The Blue force F-16s were able to take out the Red while the F-35s provided SA, ESM support, and A2A cleanup.

    While a lot of missions are conducted with the JOTT partners, the Dutch F-35s periodically fly with the 148th Fighter Squadron ‘Kickin’ Ass’, the RNLAF’s F-16 training unit in Tucson, Arizona, to evaluate and validate new tactics. ‘The 1st time we got to test all these advanced capabilities to their fullest potential was about a year ago, with and against our F-16s in Tucson,’ says Knight. ‘The initial scenario was that our two F-35s would escort a four-ship of F-16s across a notional border and protect them against another eight-ship of F-16s simulating a modern adversary. A relatively inexperienced flight leader was in charge of the F-16s on our side and Lt Col Joost ‘Niki’ Luijsterburg, the Tucson detachment commander, was responsible for the adversaries. Up to this point we had only practised these scenarios in the simulators and while we had a decent game-plan, we were all anxious to see how the F-35 would perform in real life. We figured that the F-35’s stealth would keep us out of harm’s way for most of the fight, but that we also need to protect the friendly F-16s, maximize the lethality of their missiles and get them to the target. To make this happen, we planned to initially use electronic attack against the adversary F-16s, see if we could avoid having them detect friendly fighters and datalink the location of the hostile aircraft to our F-16s. This way we could use the F-16s on our side to shoot down the initial wave of enemy fighters and keep our own missiles available once the ‘Blue Air’ F-16s had to focus on their target attack. The plan worked flawlessly. ‘In the debrief ‘Niki’ told us it was one of the most memorable sorties he had ever flown. Having previously worked in the F-35 program office he was elated to find out how effective the F-35 was, but at the same time he was frustrated by not getting a single shot off the rail against us, while getting killed multiple times. After that sortie it really hit us that the F-35 was going to make a big difference in how we operate fighters and other assets in the Royal Netherlands Air Force.’
    Last edited by SpudmanWP; 17th May 2018 at 16:34.
    "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

  16. #2416
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    Reports starting to circulate that the UK MOD is considering a Super Typhoon instead of further F35 purchases beyond the 48 F35Bs....


    https://twitter.com/RAeSTimR/status/997013532964253698
    With the Germans almost certainly replacing their Tornados with more Typhoons in the near future (and a decent chance that the Spanish do the same with the Hornets replacement) and the Saudis negotiating another batch of 48 evolved airframes, reports and rumours like these are going into hiperdrive for the next few years.
    On top of that there´s absolutely no operational requirement for 138 Dave B´s unless if a great big chunk of the Phoon fleet (the T1´s...) got replaced by JCA´s, something that might still happen, or not...
    I think there´s a very, very fine chance of the UK MOD acquiring a second batch of Dave´s but deleting part of those 138 airframes and replacing them with... nothing.

    FBW, a few posts above has pretty much nailed it.

    Cheers
    Last edited by Sintra; 18th May 2018 at 19:24.

  17. #2417
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    And what about those 2 ships? Are those big deck only to play Dominos*?
    The RN intends to use only one of them while rotating the two ships, the specifications for the airwing specificaly calls for 36 deployed at maximum effort.

  18. #2418
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    And what about those 2 ships? Are those big deck only to play Dominos*?
    Fresh Rafales! Fresh Rafales! Buy my freeeesh Rafaaaales!...




































    (relax, just joking )

  19. #2419
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    there´s absolutely no operational requirement for 138 Dave B´s unless if a great big chunk of the Phoon fleet (the T1´s...) got replaced by JCA´s, something that might still happen, or not...
    I think there´s a very, very fine chance of the UK MOD acquiring a second batch of Dave´s but deleting part of those 138 airframes and replacing them with... nothing.
    I can see 138 being bought, but piecemeal. For a start, we need enough to fill a carrier (36) plus reserves, & we'll need attrition replacements. Eventually we'll be replacing the T1s.
    Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
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  20. #2420
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    I think the point of the recent rumours is that T1 might be replaced by Typhoon rather than F35. If this is the case, the F35 fleet might number 60+ rather than 100+.

    All conjecture at this stage of course, but I would prefer F35B for the carriers in decent numbers but F35 should go nowhere near the Typhoon or Tornado replacement.

  21. #2421
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    Didn’t the original requirement for 138 airframes come from the late 90s when we had 2 FAA and 3 RAF squadrons of Harriers? add in assumed attrition from the time and you wouldn’t be far from that requirement of 138.
    I see further F35s replacing T1 Typhoons in the early 2030s, perhaps with one of the T2/3 squadrons also trading in their Typhoons, as said above we only need one extra F35B squadron as having both carriers at sea is very unlikely so some of the extra F35s can be A models. Also remember that the F35 is going to be in production for decades to come so no rush for additional orders. As for F35 killing off uk aircraft industry we have a big stake in Lightning and if the F35 only replaces some of Typhoon we have a requirement for a future combat aircraft manned or otherwise.

  22. #2422
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    The only point where the super Typhoon could win the place occupied by planned 35 orders will be on cost. Is there any visibility there to assess any advantages? No.
    The UK industry could do way better committing on future platforms. Abroad interest for cooperation or UCAS shows a very segmented offer where nor the US, the French or the Russian have any advantages. If you think that LM would be able to offer an ISR stealth airframe at a lesser cost that what the UK can, you are blinding yourself in desesperation. Same for the loyal wingman. Idem with the Gremlin project.

    Committ.
    Last edited by TomcatViP; 22nd May 2018 at 17:07.

  23. #2423
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    I hope Trump socks the UK on F-35 workshare if the UK doesn't buy the full 138 airframes. Right now the UK is building 15% of each F-35 and that is not justified if they stop orders at something like 48 aircraft.

    Now, the UK is a key player in the F-35 program and it would take years to get them rightsized as suppliers, but it can be done at some expense.

  24. #2424
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    The UK aerospace sector will benefit from more development and orders of an updated Typhoon. More so than the F35 (the UK share is overstated to some degree, although it is significant).

    Besides which, I dont say that we should just buy 48 (i dont think that was even in the article). We dont need 138 unless it is to replace the early Typhoon with an aircraft that has worse performance and can carry fewer weapons. If we opt to replace Typhoon with F35, that is a very slippery slope for UK fast jet procurement to go down, when it really needs interim support for projects that will feed into a 6th generation Typhoon replacement.

    BAE et al are just building parts for the F35 now, there is no UK design/development happening there and it is entirely right that The UK and other partners should look at how they can develop their own products now and into the future.

    The bizarre suggestion that the UK should be punished is the same sentiment that says Germany should be punished for not choosing the F35. Adds fuel to the suggestion that the F35 is a tool to dominate European defence procurement (not my view).

  25. #2425
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    I hope Trump socks the UK on F-35 workshare if the UK doesn't buy the full 138 airframes. Right now the UK is building 15% of each F-35 and that is not justified if they stop orders at something like 48 aircraft.

    Now, the UK is a key player in the F-35 program and it would take years to get them rightsized as suppliers, but it can be done at some expense.
    you have short memory... UK was supposed to be the primary partner, yet they were excluded from lots of sensitive stuff, RR was supposed to be partner on the F136 (the other engine) that was cancelled by the US regardless of what others may think about it, the parts on "every F-35" are "sold" to plenty of countries, so much that with all the parts built, every F35 could be made two or three times over.. at one moment, if the UK just cancelled their orders in proportion of their workshare reduction, what they ordered until now is too many aircraft already

  26. #2426
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    The question is that despite the UK is involved in the F35 from the very beginning they still don't have a clear assessment on prices regarding the f35. They know it's very expensive but not just how expensive. LM keeps telling that they are making efforts to reduce costs, but nobody is certain on how would it translate to facts, I think that's an issue even for the USA, at least that's what i understood from the last GAO. All this criticism from the UK towards acquiring more F35Bs is mainly caused by these budgetary concerns. They just don't know if they can afford it.
    With this in mind, there are other reasons to go the typhoon way:
    - At this point, they know exactly what they can expect from typhoon, both regarding budget and capabilities.
    - Their share in the typhoon pie is big.
    - Some partners seem to go for more.
    - It might help easing things with Germany regarding brexit, I don't think this is a critical point, but I don't think we can completly exclude the point either.
    - They already have the stealth thing to play around and develop doctrine and as of now they don't really need more.
    - I am far from having a clear vision on this, but maybe RAF and RN are having some difficulties regarding how to share the F35Bs (and it's costs), plus I can imagine RAF is deeply unhappy with the choice of the far more expensive and less capable stovl version.
    - They are leading the typhoon offer for Belgium, which means that in this particular moment taking some distance from the F35 might be convenient.
    - 138 are to many stovl aircrafts, even considering operating the two platforms simultaneously (which wasn't the orginal plan) there's no need for more than 72, for the other 66 aircrafts both typhoon or F35A are a better option than the F35B in my view.
    Last edited by bandua; 22nd May 2018 at 23:30.

  27. #2427
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    They have a very good idea of costs, just not more than 10 years into the future to the detail that Parliament wants.
    "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

  28. #2428
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    Bandua -
    - 138 are to many stovl aircrafts, even considering two platforms I would never consider more than 72,
    That's only enough to fill the two carriers, with none in reserve, no attrition replacements, etc., so if you actually wanted to be able to operate both carriers simultaneously, it wouldn't be enough.
    Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
    Justinian

  29. #2429
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    According to the UK Parliamentary docs, no "final" decision has been made on the version of the final 90. This is one of the reasons why they can't give an absolute price since cost (both procurement and lifetime) goes up with the B over the A.

    Beyond the first 48 F-35 ‘B’ variants in the 10-year Equipment Plan, analysis is under way to determine the choice of variant of the remaining 90 F-35s that meets both Combat Air and Carrier Strike requirements.
    https://publications.parliament.uk/p...ce/845/845.pdf


    https://www.parliament.uk/business/c...-2017/inquiry/
    Last edited by SpudmanWP; 22nd May 2018 at 23:13.
    "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

  30. #2430
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    Mostly good points (and speculation) Bandua... except for two things:
    One that Spud already addressed, future costs of the F-35.
    The other is regarding the Typhoon. Current costs and capabilities are a known. But Germany (and any possible future UK Typhoons) aren’t going to be built to current capabilities. That involves R&D, and a higher procurement cost. Not to mention wading further into the unpredictable world of the eurofighter consortium’s to date disfunctional upgrade path.

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