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Thread: Germanwings airliner crashes in French Alps

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by J Boyle View Post
    From my days in journalism it was an unwritten rule not to report on suicides...unless the person was prominent or it was done in a public manner/place...even then it was not dwelled upon.
    Now it is a written rule I believe. The Samaritans provide some guidance here;

    http://www.samaritans.org/media-cent...orting-suicide

    Of course the press will tastelessly ignore these rules en masse in the case of a celebrity suicide, such as the recent death of Robin Williams. My local rag is actually pretty good for observing these rules. People tend to fall off buildings yet nobody else is believed to be involved quite often.

  2. #62
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    Do we know if he was a Gemini or a Taurus?
    If I wasn't a never was I could have been a hasbeen

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomcatViP View Post
    Outburst is rather pejorative. I and others here took the time to underline specific points with arguments.

    And by the way, close to home is quite short for an argumentation.

    And remember, there is not known action AFTER the plane was set in a dive. Nothing in the 8 min long descent. I am sorry, but it does not fit (Ok, I give up with the capital letters)
    It got your attention.

    You were speculating not making an argument.

    Saying it is close to home was not an argument. It was a statement, I have flown that route making this incident uncomfortably close to home for ME!

    Let the air accident investigation team do their job.
    Because sometimes in life we need a bit of fun

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXNAp3mKepc

  4. #64
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    Well said Fedaykin.
    Although I'm surprised at the speed at which suicide has been declared at this time there is no reason to dispute the official information.
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.
    Bertrand Russell

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    I can't help but feel that the prosecutor is being a bit premature, but apart from that I thought that at least two people always had to be on the flight deck? Not necessarily two pilots but two people, if only to make sure that the PIC didn't fall asleep!

    Regards
    In some countries, & elsewhere on some airlines. Not a world-wide rule. But rapidly heading that way.

    Andreas Lubitz is reported to have -

    - Had to take a months-long break from training in 2008 because of an episode of depression.
    - Been off work, under treatment for depression for 18 months after completing training in 2009.
    - Left a torn-up sick note (condition not officially stated) signing him off work, covering the day of the crash, at home, & not told his employers about it.

    It looks to me very likely that he was undergoing another episode of serious depression when he flew that plane into the ground. He may not have planned it: he may only have known what he was going to do when the opportunity presented itself & he did it. We'll never know.
    Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
    Justinian

  6. #66
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    Not yet mentioned as far as I have read anywhere on line.

    Why have we heard nothing of Passengers last minute phone calls, after all they must have known that the aircraft was descending. Eight or so minutes to make calls and this time not as the Malaysian aircraft ( over water far off land) but over the South of France. But no calls ?

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Smart View Post
    Not yet mentioned as far as I have read anywhere on line.

    Why have we heard nothing of Passengers last minute phone calls, after all they must have known that the aircraft was descending. Eight or so minutes to make calls and this time not as the Malaysian aircraft ( over water far off land) but over the South of France. But no calls ?
    Yes I mentioned it (page 1). Some calls or connection might hve passed through when the plane was low (at least text messages - we have discussed it around MH370 and came to the conclusion that it might be better to text and expect a bandwidth availability for the data to be sent).

    Here, please remind that this is a 1990 plane used for short hauled flight that might not have been fitted with a proper passenger communication/entertainment equipment:

    Registration: D-AIPX
    C/n / msn: 147
    First flight: 1990-11-29 (24 years 4 months)
    Total airframe hrs: 58300
    Cycles: 46700
    Source:

    http://aviation-safety.net/

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Smart View Post
    Why have we heard nothing of Passengers last minute phone calls, after all they must have known that the aircraft was descending. Eight or so minutes to make calls and this time not as the Malaysian aircraft ( over water far off land) but over the South of France. But no calls ?
    The descending was not abrupt, fast, but nothing extraordinary and the aircraft went against some pretty high mountains, at the altitude of the crash site there will be clouds bellow. The passengers woud be aware that the aircraft was descending, but they wouldnt be aware of a crash risk right untill the last moment.

  9. #69
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    Some might hve noticed the high value of the decent rate (3700ft/min - 1200m/min) and the speed (400kt- ~800-kph). Buffeting was certainly noticeable with objects shaking and stewardess having difficulty to walk in the alley for example.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Cloud cover was only localized close to the point of impact (hence mountain view was obstructed only at the last minutes - from my mem - have to check weather of the day).

    And last but not least, a pilot trying to break through the cockpit door* might have raise some attention...



    *especially with an axe as recently reported
    Last edited by TomcatViP; 28th March 2015 at 01:55.

  10. #70
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    Hello TomcatViP,
    Was that the one line in post 9 on page one ?

    Of interest is the C-130 (UAV Controller ?) in the area at the time, it would be possible one of those UAS/UAV's to have gone wild
    when AIPX was too low over the restricted area ?

    Prosecuter was so fast with statement of blame ?

    Also on line it has been reported that the Co-Pilot had converted, so perhaps not just a suicide after all ?

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Smart View Post
    Hello TomcatViP,
    Of interest is the C-130 (UAV Controller ?) in the area at the time, it would be possible one of those UAS/UAV's to have gone wild
    when AIPX was too low over the restricted area ?

    You say there was a C-130 in the area...and immediately assume it was a UAV controller? That's a might big leap!
    There are a lot of C-130s out here....how many are UAV controllers?
    Does France have any so configured? If not who?

    The tinfoil hat brigade on PPrune already is mobilized....someone thinks the aircraft was hacked from the ground as a demonstration.
    The govts. of France and Germany...and Airbus presumably, have already paid a ransom to the plotters. They then came up with this cover story to blame the co-pilot.
    You see, if the secret that hacking a passenger jet was possible, Airbus shares would plummet.

    Of course, conspiracy buffs ignore the anything standing in the way of a Bond-worthy story.
    Like the sheer logistics of keeping so many people quiet. How many people would need to be bought to keep the UAV story secret? (C-130 crew, their commanders, ATC, Intel, recovery crews, buying off any witnesses on the ground...etc, etc.)
    How many would be involved in the hacking and ransom story on PPrune? You'd need a bus just for the bankers, accountants and attorneys.
    In these days of professional leakers and media outlets ready to make any informant rich and famous...it must be quite a job to keep people (not just loyal military people and govt. officials) silent.
    Last edited by J Boyle; 28th March 2015 at 15:59.
    There are two sides to every story. The truth is usually somewhere between the two.

  12. #72
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    Please. Is it so hard to refrain from far-fetched speculation during the investigation?

    My thoughts are with the bereaved. May they find the answers that they and many others seek.

    I wish the accident investigators good luck in their mission. I sincerely hope the media activity over the last few days and its potential consequences will in no way affect the integrity of the investigation process.

    (Not aimed at you, Boyle).

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primate View Post
    Please. Is it so hard to refrain from far-fetched speculation during the investigation?

    My thoughts are with the bereaved. May they find the answers that they and many others seek.

    I wish the accident investigators good luck in their mission. I sincerely hope the media activity over the last few days and its potential consequences will in no way affect the integrity of the investigation process.

    (Not aimed at you, Boyle).
    Speculation in search of the truth is an absolutely essential part of the process. Without speculation reinforced by hard evidence, it is not possible to cover all the contributory factors.

  14. #74
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    I've only had a limited academic introduction to accident investigation methods. It is true that speculation is part of the process at a later stage, i.e. analysis phase and thereafter. I've been taught that this must build upon the collection of as much relevant data as possible followed by an exhaustive mapping of all relevant event sequences. Regardless of this, I'm not familiar with the BEA's standards or the current state of the investigation. I would assume that it hasn't come that far yet.

    Anyway - thank you for your input, but I don't see how it relates to the forum activity I mentioned.

  15. #75
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    What surprises me the most in this affair, is the haste that the authorities have come to their conclusions,
    as to the cause.
    Engine Failure:.... A condition which occurs when all fuel tanks mysteriously become filled with air.

  16. #76
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    I might be wrong, but the French prosecution (not the accident investigation board) has presented some early findings as pointing towards a probable cause, not as a conclusion. How parts of the media may have chosen to convey this is another matter.

    It could be that the French authorities chose to go public this early due to a leak to the New York Times. I think this development should be addressed sooner or later.

    This statement is a good one, IMO:

    IFALPA strongly condemns leaking of CVR data

  17. #77
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    I wholly endorse that statement.

  18. #78
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    It could have been worse. If the co-pilot was so deranged that he wanted to be remembered as a mass murderer he could have brought the plane down on Marseille.

    What I find curious is that the medics did not see fit to report his condition to the appropriate authority so that his licence would be suspended. After all your GP would not hesitate to report a medical condition impairing your ability to drive to the DVLA.

  19. #79
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    TomcatVIP and skyshooter bring up VERY good points.
    This whole story seems (media wise) seems very "open and shut" case well before the official investigation is completed.
    The release of CVR info so quickly (within what 40hrs?) is highly suspicious and there is no mention of the FDR (which the media has reported as damaged).

    How can any conclusion be made with both the CVR and FDR properly analysed?

    This is nothing more then trial by media and what is even more bizzare is most of this information is coming from a lawyer??

    Reading a story this morning its now reported he was seeing no less then FOUR doctors now. None of whom reported his condition to the relevant authorities.

    Why fly into a mountain? The time to descend surely must of played on his train of thought? There is studies done whereby most people who attempt suicide at the last second will change their mind. He had 8 to 9minutes to be thinking about this.
    We are 100% SNAFU

  20. #80
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    Yes. Easy to say that part of the press have gone ... Cuckoo on that case

    Here is a snapshot of the CNN account on Youtube:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I watch CNN way more than I should and I have never seen such vulgar editing before*.

    Also, I agree with you regarding the awkward attitude of the prosecutor. He is the one in charge for the inquiry with public interest in mind and should not have draw such hasty conclusion.


    Regarding the facts, we shld consider the unexpected delay at Barcelona. It might have something to play here, especially if we consider that he was sick, took some medicines and the plane was relatively high for what he might have been used flying short haul. Just see it as if he was severely diabetic.


    *And, when I had time, I was a fan of Miss Burnett show
    Last edited by TomcatViP; 29th March 2015 at 03:31.

  21. #81
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    TomcatVIP:

    Why we need to find the FDR!

    Did the Capt attempt to activate the "numeric pad" outside the cabin door?? Will this parameter be recorded in the FDR when found?? Will the timing match the activation of the toggle switch door inside the cockpit to the "lock position" ??
    Last edited by fah619; 29th March 2015 at 10:04.

  22. #82
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    Flight Data recorder was found... some 4 days ago.
    Its apparently badly damaged. Nothing has been heard since

    Quote Originally Posted by fah619 View Post
    TomcatVIP:

    Why we need to find the FDR!

    Did the Capt attempt to activate the "numeric pad" outside the cabin door?? Will this parameter be recorded in the FDR when found?? Will the timing match the activation of the toggle switch door inside the cockpit to the "lock position" ??
    We are 100% SNAFU

  23. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by fah619 View Post
    TomcatVIP:

    Why we need to find the FDR!

    Did the Capt attempt to activate the "numeric pad" outside the cabin door?? Will this parameter be recorded in the FDR when found?? Will the timing match the activation of the toggle switch door inside the cockpit to the "lock position" ??
    FDR can't vanish like this. They will certainly find it.

    Using the numeric pad outside the cabin is a standard recommended procedure to request access to the cockpit or in the case of an emergency. Once the user have keyed in the 7 digit code, one time, an alarm (the buzzer ) sound during 1 to 9s indicating a request to access the cockpit. It's up to the Pilots to open the door by using the UNLOCK position on the 3 mode button in the central pedestal.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Note that each time someone request an access, the buzzer sounds for 1 to 9 sec (depending of the presets).

    If an emergency procedure to access has to be done by someone, a code with two seven digits have to be typed in on the door keypad. The Buzzer inside the cockpit then sounds continuously for 30 seconds before an access can be made during a laps of only 5 seconds.

    There is also a third mode: the pilots in the cockpit can select the LOCK mode in the central pedestal panel to lock the door, mute the buzzer and deny any access for at least 5 min (5 to 20 min depending of the presets) to someone executing the emergency procedure.


    Without any buzz sound reported by the prosecutor, the only valid hypo is that the switch was on LOCK mode and the preset have been put on a delay superior to 8 min (the remaining flight time).

    Notice also that the access procedure routinely used looks quite complicated and annoying for a crew trying to concentrate on its assigned task. 7 digit access, buzz sound, delay that have to be monitored etc... I have no hesitation thinking that many crew might use the more convenient LOCK mode as a standard procedure (which acts like a manual mode the time the delay is set). Hence the soft knocking initially by the returning pilot (Pilot Exit, Copilot switch to Lock (or the button is set on lock continuously), Pilot return and knock at the door or use the interphone. Copilot unlock via the switch (button turned from "Lock" to "Unlock" and then back to "Lock" once the pilot is back inside).

    Frankly, the design of such a system sounds awkward, time consuming and impractical. Especially when modern secure lock are now an accessible technology with cost largely compatible with the security needs and the price of a plane.

    There is also no reason to think that the pilot did not use the keypad since we know he tried by any means to regain access to the cockpit.

    Last edited by TomcatViP; 29th March 2015 at 20:05.

  24. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by slipperysam View Post
    Flight Data recorder was found... some 4 days ago.
    Its apparently badly damaged. Nothing has been heard since
    Do you have a link ? I heard only the French President saying that the outer shell of the FDR was found but without the mechanism (what was denied latter for obvious reasons).
    Last edited by TomcatViP; 29th March 2015 at 05:32.

  25. #85
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    Where is the FDR situated in a A320 ?

    How hard can it be to search and find it ?
    If it looks good, it will fly good !
    -Bill Lear & Marcel Dassault


    http://max3fan.blogspot.com/

  26. #86
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    TomcatVIP:

    ...I heard the same over the local news that the FDR was found but was in bad shape & with critical items missing. Are we talking here about the 'memory chips" ?? were there any photos/link of this release in Europe?? BTW the movement of every knob, toggle switch is recorded into these memory chips depending on the a/c model & updates made to it. Going back to my notes on AF 447!!

    p.s notes fm "The Wall Street Journal, (U.S) Th 26 Mar 2015.

    French Investigators Extract Voices, Sounds From Black Box ... (G/W Flt 9525).

    Last edited by fah619; 29th March 2015 at 17:04.

  27. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by fah619 View Post
    TomcatVIP:

    ...I heard the same over the local news that the FDR was found but was in bad shape & with critical items missing. Are we talking here about the 'memory chips" ?? were there any photos/link of this release in Europe?? BTW the movement of every knob, toggle switch is recorded into these memory chips depending on the a/c model & updates made to it. Going back to my notes on AF 447!!

    p.s notes fm "The Wall Street Journal, (U.S) Th 26 Mar 2015.

    French Investigators Extract Voices, Sounds From Black Box ... (G/W Flt 9525).

    This sounds a bit like the FEDEX flight where the ex-worker tried a suicide to get insurance money.

    The impact speed ( 400 kts ) indicates ( to me ) that the co-pilot flying the Germanwings A320 tried to disintegrate the plane so badly that it would be impossible to gain data from the flight data recorder ( FDR ). CVR working /operative made this futile.
    If it looks good, it will fly good !
    -Bill Lear & Marcel Dassault


    http://max3fan.blogspot.com/

  28. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomcatViP View Post
    Do you have a link ? I heard only the French President saying that the outer shell of the FDR was found but without the mechanism (what was denied latter for obvious reasons).

    Seems more and more strange... there are articles from4 days ago saying it was found. And they all say it was too badly damaged.
    Now theres articles saying the search for the FDR continues.

    Ok call me sceptical... but again the funny smell of something not right appears

    http://airwaysnews.com/blog/2015/03/...fdr-retrieved/

    Despite early informations from The New York Times, indicating that the Flight Data Recorder (FDR) had been found in a much worse state than the CVR, BEA assures that the FDR is still missing, and that search teams have prioritized the location of the missing unit.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/26/wo...rash.html?_r=1
    At the crash site, a senior official working on the investigation said, workers found the casing of the plane’s other so-called black box, the flight data recorder, but the memory card containing data on the plane’s altitude, speed, location and condition was not inside, apparently having been thrown loose or destroyed by the impact.
    We are 100% SNAFU

  29. #89
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    SSam/TomcatVIP:

    .. I agree, some things still do not add up in the so called "black box" equation. Questionable at this time, by a well known B-777 Capt is how exactly the BEA managed to detect/hear normal breathing fm the FO when the cockpit noise environment makes a bit diff to detect in the VCR??... unless, He added the FO was using an oxygen mask.

  30. #90
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    Hi Fah619,

    The usage of the Oxygen mask is an interesting hypothesis that could concur with others fact and hypo.

    If we consider that he was taking some drugs like anxiolytics or Betablockers to manage his anxiety, he might have resorted to pure oxygen to counter a feel of dizziness right after the Pilot exited the cockpit. Drug to manage a glaucoma are known to have side effect with alt. And we know that he was consulting for severe vision problem that could potentially put him out of Flying.

    Beta blockers reduce the maximum pulse rate and therefore maximal workload, can cause lethargy
    We know from the prosecutor that the conversation was slowing down and that he appeared very calm prior to be left alone in the cockpit.


    Anyhow, it would be amazing to see the medical "experts" world to jump into the case and stop the wild speculations (this includes the above). There is a medical branch dedicated to flight at high altitude. I am sure that this will do for plenty interviews and captivating "on-air" time.

    Regarding the FDR, I do agree that something goes wrong. But please, keep in mind that communication is not sciences and spokes men/women are rarely mechanical engineer. It's rather plausible that someone has briefed the media misunderstanding the Voice data recorder for the Flight data recorder.

    In the case of Mr Hollande, It's unacceptable from a president that made the deliberate choice to interfere in an ongoing inquiry, but the ring of aeronautical experts around the French president have already prove itself to be of dubious* quality (see the "first world electrical plane" saga story as a reference).

    We also now that the Copilot consulted a lot always emphasing on serious problem (eyesight, depression):

    Lubitz told the neuropsychologist that he was too stressed with work, the European government official briefed on the investigation said.

    The official said he was not aware of any suicidal tendencies reported by Lubitz to the doctors,
    He might just have been collecting prescription to get access to drug that could enhance his performance and help him to deal with a situation that have outpaced him in the past.




    Source:
    Drug use and Misuse in Mountaineering 2014


    *to speak galantly
    Last edited by TomcatViP; 31st March 2015 at 23:00.

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