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Thread: Germanwings airliner crashes in French Alps

  1. #91
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    Some relevant facts about FDR:

    . The SSFDR records the most recent 25 hours of flight and records more than 1300 parameters. The SSFDR is a 256 word per second (wps) data rate recorder.

    .Weight: around 7 kg

    . Sustainable Impact Shock: around 3500 G for 5 ms (G means one time the gravity acceleration).

    .Sustain Fire Temperature: around 1100°C for 30 min


    At 800kph (222m/s) and 7kg, the max admissible acceleration is not out of design parameters (obviously). Voice Recorder and FDR have the same design parameters. FDR are somewhat more resilient due to the usage of solid state technology.


    Source:
    Honeywell via the Malaysian Gov.

  2. #92
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    Tomcat VIP:

    Hi! Tks for the info/data on the FDR. Plz clarify for the audience: How many of the so called 'black boxes" are on an AB 320 1990 model/Newer models?? Is the data of the FDR recorded in a separate box?? .

    p.s Any status/news of the reason for the 20'-30' delay at Barcelona prior to take-off??

  3. #93
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    New on-board cell-phone video surfaces

    Paris Match and Bild obtained a video taken during the final seconds of the fated Germanwings flight 4U9525 and found among the wreckage by a source close to the investigation. Its origin – a cell phone – was clear. The scene was so chaotic that it was hard to identify people, but the sounds of the screaming passengers made it perfectly clear that they were aware of what was about to happen to them. One can hear cries of “My God” in several languages. Metallic banging can also be heard more than three times, perhaps of the pilot trying to open the cockpit door with a heavy object. Towards the end, after a heavy shake, stronger than the others, the screaming intensifies. Then nothing.

    Also:
    Lufthansa was made aware of the copilot Depression in 2009

    Lufthansa, meanwhile, announced that co-pilot Andreas Lubitz told told his Lufthansa flight training school in 2009 that he had a "previous episode of severe depression."
    Watch it On CNN


    Loud Bang 1 min before crash might bring new light to the two shepherds testimony

    What we know from Bild & ParisMatch
    10:40

    A violent sound can be heard outside. At the same time, inside, screaming. The Airbus hits the mountain with its right wing.

    No other sound, save for the alarms and the screaming passengers.



    10:41

    The airplane hits the Estrop mountain range at 5000 feet (1500 meters) at 800 km/h.
    And the witnesses account that appeared in the local press the day of the incident on FranceTVInfo website:

    We were between 11 am and noon, at the foot of the mountain Tromas, when we saw an airliner that had just got around the mountain on the right. It was flying low, and its trajectory was curious. But we were at 1300 meters, with a large mountain that rises up to 2500 meters in front, we did not realize it was flying so low. And, its trajectory, we thought he was flying from Nice rather than Marseille.

    At the same time, we saw a fighter plane that seemed to make a move to avoid it. From so far away, it was even as they would collide. It was certainly looking for him, and must have had already spot it. We often have military planes flying around for exercice. They make a lot of noise. Moreover, they frighten our cattel. So, we did not hear the explosion when the plane crashed, but we realized afterwards that they had probably been the last to see this airplane.

    Tromas is 2 500 meters high and behind the Three Dioceses top off at 2900 meters. The the plane might have seek for a way out, a way out. But this is a dead-end. The aircraft then went crashing down the side of the neck Mariaud, probably on the cliffs of the massif of Three Dioceses. The fighter has certainly seen what happened. We realized after he had to be sent [on the scene]. "

    According to them it seemed as if the plane was in a ctrld flight, flying low in the valley and a fighter jet (other sources stated a Mirage 2K) was monitoring or searching for it and nearly collided.


    Also @Fah619

    Last leaked document confirms Copilot was breathing through the on-board Oxygen Mask

    Despite the deafening noises, Lubitz’s breathing can cleary be heard through an oxygen mask he put on. He is breathing normally. The plane is at 13000 feet (4000 meters).

    Also:
    Cockpit door locked via "LOCK" mode (hence no buzzer sound)

    Lubitz is alone in the cockpit. He locks the armored door with the “Lock” button
    (Extracted from the transcript of the voice recorder on ParisMatch/Bild)



    Sources:
    ParisMatch (link in English)
    CNN.COM
    KeyPub Post#9
    http://www.francetvinfo.fr/
    Last edited by TomcatViP; 31st March 2015 at 21:46.

  4. #94
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    cell phones have been collected [...] but [...] they "hadn't been exploited yet." !?!

    Lt. Col. Jean-Marc Menichini, a French Gendarmerie spokesman in charge of communications on rescue efforts around the Germanwings crash site, told CNN that the Paris Match and Bild reports of a video recorded in the final seconds before the crash were "completely wrong" and "unwarranted." He explained that cell phones have been collected on the site but that they "hadn't been exploited yet."
    A strange statement that won't help those mourning their losses.


    Notice the plural form.


    Source:
    CNN.com
    Last edited by TomcatViP; 31st March 2015 at 21:48.

  5. #95
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    TomcatVip:

    Hi Again! Tks for the latest info & data on Flt 9525. That's a pretty swift move of a memory card from a found cell phone. It's not clear yet if it's the real thing. They do however, have the tendency to provide data after crashes in the past.

    The mountain witnesses account is also a bit off the time line. They might have seen one a/c but not both. It took the French ATCs 4-5 minutes to raise the alarm & then it will take some 15-20 to get a Mirage in place to investigate. Unless there was a French AB nearby. Rumors & leaks seem to be all over the place.

    How was the source (BEA?) able to confirm that the pilot was on O2 mask???
    Last edited by fah619; 1st April 2015 at 01:10.

  6. #96
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    According to the French news , the second recorder (D.F.D.R) has just been retrieved.
    Last edited by Hand87_5; 2nd April 2015 at 16:05.

  7. #97
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    I am very cautious about what I believe in the media. A lot of "information" has been leaked and other does not make sense to me.
    http://forum.keypublishing.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=24455&dateline=137163  6822Hindsight is what you see from the tailgunner's position...

  8. #98
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    I agree with you, too many armchair detectives. Let's hope the FDR is readable!
    http://www.flightmemory.com/ I have been round the world 11.83 times!

  9. #99
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    27Vet/NewForest:

    Hi I completely agree! Now with the FDR (if readable) has to match the statements/time-line made on the CVR.

  10. #100
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    The press is now interested by the details of the medical prescriptions that the Copilot was collecting.

    One that was cited is the benzodiazepine that is known for its increased risk of hypoxia at altitude.

    With benzodiazepines, if AMS is not clearly excluded, there is a theoretical risk of worsening AMS and
    hypoxia especially if a higher dose of Temazepam is use (greater than 15mg) . However to date there
    are few if any studies describing the exact effects of high doses of benzodiazepine at altitude, but
    common sense and experience suggest higher doses are inadvisable at altitude and in any doses
    where AMS is clearly documented.
    We heard also today about traces of a rather strange and convenient web search on his Tablet just week prior the incident. He seems in particular to have been interested by how the door locking mechanism of the plane he was regularly flying use to work.

    Really surprising. And wasn't he supposed to own at least the pilot manual ?


    Regarding the recovered cellphone video, it does not have to have be sourced physically from a cell phone memory. Military Monitoring activity involves routinely aircraft flying above zone to intercept communications.

    The Justice Department is scooping up data from thousands of mobile phones through devices deployed on airplanes that mimic cellphone towers.
    The dedicated aircraft in Fr Air Force are the C160 Gabriel (sighted at Montpelier on the beginning of March) and (to be dully assessed) the C-135FR such as the one reported overflying the zone for hours that day.
    Last edited by TomcatViP; 18th July 2015 at 23:54.

  11. #101
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    TomcatVip:

    Hi! Interesting data. Now...with the recovery of the FDR it should tell us who activated what switches & also if the 02 mask was used by the co-pilot.
    p.s That branch of medicine is called 'Aerospace Medicine/Physiological Tng. I agree with you he prob had its own AB-320-1 manual model 1990 or so, to look specifically the cockpit door up-dates not the www.

  12. #102
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    Yes. I agree. There will be probably not much to discuss until then.

    For the Oxy Mask, the press allegedly cited the leaked VCR transcript. I have a hard time imagining that the redaction of Bild or Paris Match would have added that detail by themselves.

    CNN published today a good interview of the Paris match journalist on their website:

    http://edition.cnn.com/videos/world/...h-reporter.cnn

  13. #103
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    TVip:

    Rg! Tks for the info/data provided. The 'real' investigation' will take some time! We have now the CVR/FDR on hand to pursue facts. As usual, the media will go its own way!! ..the rumors & leaks will cont!!

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by fah619 View Post
    TomcatVIP:

    Will this parameter be recorded in the FDR when found??
    The door lock key pad is not linked to the FDR so, no.

  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by fah619 View Post
    Tomcat VIP:

    Plz clarify for the audience: How many of the so called 'black boxes" are on an AB 320 1990 model/Newer models?? Is the data of the FDR recorded in a separate box??
    There are two "Black boxes" A Cockpit voice recorder (CVR) and a flight data recorder (FDR) They are mounted together at the back of the aircraft. Both recorders are similar in construction with the data being recorded in highly strengthened sections of each recorder. The FDR records about 25 hrs of data and the CVR records between half an hour to two hours of radio, intercom and ambient flight deck noise.

    As you can probably guess when the FDR is analysed they can filter out a lot of the background noise so that is probably how the co pilots breathing was picked up.

    A lot of the switches and knobs in the flight deck have distinctive clicks when operated and can be recognized by an experienced 320 crew. The click of the door lock is quite distinctive and the rate of climb/decent knob on the mode select panel clicks as it is rotated.

    As for the rapid released of information. A lot of it has been leaked so that has forced their hand. Also the lack of information in the Malaysian Airlines case has cause so much pain for the relatives and created allsorts of bizarre conspiracy theories that, perhaps the French decided to avoid all of that. Mind you some people are still trying!

    Rgds Cking

  16. #106
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    Too much leaking! The media grabs these leaks and sensationalizes them. This causes more distress for the families. The perpetrators leaking information are unprofessional and should be brought to book.
    http://forum.keypublishing.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=24455&dateline=137163  6822Hindsight is what you see from the tailgunner's position...

  17. #107
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    Another twist to the story:

    http://wtop.com/health/2015/04/faa-h...anwings-pilot/

    "Modified living conditions"?

  18. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying-A View Post
    Another twist to the story:

    http://wtop.com/health/2015/04/faa-h...anwings-pilot/

    "Modified living conditions"?
    Anxiety, home sick, shy or bullied (we don't know and PPL can be competitive when airlines grants are scares)... Nothing that point to a silent Mass-Murder killer with no known self-glorification. It only says that he had some problems and was taking medicine provided by untrained physicians (not ones dedicated to flight sciences).

    It still does not fit the Silent crazy Kamikaze frame.
    Last edited by TomcatViP; 30th April 2015 at 03:48.

  19. #109
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    Preliminary Report on the Germanwings Flight 9525 Crash

    (English translation).

    The report focus essentially on the thesis of dementia and the voluntary act of mass killing right from first line. It then doesn't deviate from a iota.

  20. #110
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    I read it. The powers-that-be will have to come up with a better solution to the cockpit door problem, but more importantly, the screening process. Having two crew in the cockpit, say one pilot and a cabin attendant won't cut it. As can be seen in the other examples they give at the end, even if there are two crew in their seats one could be physically stronger than the other and still put the plane out of control. There is a distinct advantage to having a three crew cockpit. The money they have saved by doing away with the flight engineer is not worth the lives that have been lost in these deliberate crashes.
    http://forum.keypublishing.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=24455&dateline=137163  6822Hindsight is what you see from the tailgunner's position...

  21. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomcatViP View Post
    cell phones have been collected [...] but [...] they "hadn't been exploited yet." !?!



    A strange statement that won't help those mourning their losses.


    Notice the plural form.


    Source:
    CNN.com
    Still no news or no leaked video.

  22. #112
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    25000€ for your Uncle, your daughter or your own mother, Germanwing Said

    Some of the close relatives of those killed in the Germanwings plane crash in March have rejected the carrier's offer of 25,000 euros ($27,000) in compensation payments for their pain and suffering.
    [...]
    The 25,000-euro offer is on top of 50,000 euros already paid as immediate financial assistance to relatives. German law does not usually provide for a separate award for pain and suffering
    [...]
    Relatives living in Germany may also claim an additional 10,000 euros each as compensation for any health problems without needing to offer formal proof, the company said.
    The grotesque has reached no end.

    Source:
    reuters.com

  23. #113
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    Outrage over tribute to pilot.

    http://www.thelocal.de/20160404/fami...nwings-copilot

    Unbelievable how insensitive some people can be.
    http://www.flightmemory.com/ I have been round the world 11.83 times!

  24. #114
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    You know that there is nothing tangible for the Suicide theory... No close witness account, no written testimony, no known earlier attempt, no released CVR tape etc... We have only concurring proof recovered afterward on a striking fashion like the notebook and the unwritten testimony reportedly from doctors subject to patient's confidentiality. That's all. This case won't stand long in front of a criminal court running a daily routine.

    I am not saying that this didn't happens like the facts are portrayed, but we should remain cool minded and acknowledge that in such case his family owns the right to remember him as they knew him for real (as opposed by the prosecutor). Even more, we might see someone comes into the media spotlight* to ascertain how a sob he was.


    *Meanwhile, the press coverage is strangely muted when there are way more matters to draws concurring theory. And in that case, no Aliens involvement! But probably that's why

    Example:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by TomcatViP; 4th April 2016 at 22:37.

  25. #115
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    I wonder if I should put more material?

  26. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomcatViP View Post
    I wonder what I would do in that situation having lost my family?
    25000, 25'000'000 ?
    I don't think either would be compensation. Could I spend the money, enjoy the money knowing what it cost?
    An acceptance of fault, a sorry from the CEO and time to mourn?
    Or just accept the fact and walk away?
    Strangely the last option seems the best.
    Last edited by hampden98; 21st April 2016 at 18:57.

  27. #117
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    Money is not compensation for a lost loved one. The money won't bring the loved one back.
    What makes me more mad is that yes they are probably hiding facts to shift the blame from the airline, manufacturer and/or system.
    Blame it all on Lubitz.
    Same as AF447, blame it all on the pilots.
    http://forum.keypublishing.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=24455&dateline=137163  6822Hindsight is what you see from the tailgunner's position...

  28. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by hampden98 View Post
    I wonder what I would do in that situation having lost my family?
    25000, 25'000'000 ?
    I don't think either would be compensation. Could I spend the money, enjoy the money knowing what it cost?
    An acceptance of fault, a sorry from the CEO and time to mourn?
    Or just accept the fact and walk away?
    Strangely the last option seems the best.
    Money makes for a salary lost in a family for example.
    You can then be able to send your child through some studies instead of being forced down a position where he can't fulfill his aspirations
    Money makes for a mortgage that can be paid instead of a house lost
    Money makes for psy support instead of depression
    Money makes for dignity instead of charity reliance.


    Your post is really odd. But perhaps you'd like to think that the dead were all illegal immigrants inbound to tap social benefits?

  29. #119
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    Your post is really odd. But perhaps you'd like to think that the dead were all illegal immigrants inbound to tap social benefits?
    Just trying to equate loss versus compensation.
    I really don't get the immigrant or benefit comment as my post mentions neither?

  30. #120
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    In the final report, p24:

    All French civil radars are compliant with Mode-S EHS, but in March 2015, Mode-S
    downlinked parameters were not yet shown on French controllers’ stations.
    The changes of selected altitude during the Düsseldorf to Barcelona flight
    (see paragraph 1.11.4) and the accident flight were therefore not displayed to the air
    traffic controllers in France.
    The report also denied that the plane was intercepted before the crash had occurred (p25):

    At 9 h 48, a fighter jet from the French Air Force took off from the military airbase of
    Orange, after having been ordered to do so by the national centre of aerial operations
    at 9 h 41. The military plane flew over the vicinity of the accident site at 10 h 01. [time of crash was 9:41]
    The FDR was localized in a totally different area than both the CVR and QAR (p29):


    Click image for larger version. 

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    Only the BEA has knowledge of a severe psychiatric disorder (p33) :

    All the AMEs from the Lufthansa AeMC who examined the co-pilot for the revalidations
    of the class 1 medical certificate were aware of the waiver that the co-pilot had.
    They all assessed his psychological and psychiatrist fitness through observation of
    behaviour and discussions. None of the responses provided by the co-pilot raised any
    concern among the AMEs about a mood, neurotic, personality, mental or behavioural
    disorder that would have required further psychiatric evaluation

    When

    [...] However, the majority of the team of experts
    consulted by the BEA agreed that the limited medical information available may be
    consistent with the co-pilot having suffered from a psychotic depressive episode that
    started in December 2014, which lasted until the day of the accident. Other forms of
    mental ill-health cannot be excluded and a personality disorder is also a possibility.
    For God Sake, what is this ?!! Freaky.

    Report accessible here in PDF (English language)i
    Last edited by TomcatViP; 17th September 2017 at 11:25.

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