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Thread: Turkish aerospace

  1. #571
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    The actual BS-level has reached another zenith !!
    first understand what i wrote.
    What does turkey want with MiG-35 and even more - or actual less - with the JF-17 ????
    Some of You are indeed either drinking too much or smoke too strange stuff.
    MIG-35 is the right aircraft for Turkey. for price of 100 F-35 they can purchase 400 MIG-35. inducted at rate of 50 per year. MIG-35 short take off and rough field performance create more distributed network. It has twin seat design for less pilot load with superior speed and altitude advantage. it will benefit for the latest Russian weopon system in quantity of production, price, range that cannot be matched by any air power. If Turkey need 100,000 bombs and 10,000 cruise missiles it all can be sold in quickest time. In Middleast there is no shortage of targets. than there is whole netcentric warfare with radars, satellites. Russia has much clear picture of Middleast and EU. and if Turkey need to find things that are unknown that can become known.
    Since Chinese have spent more than two decades playing around with JF-17. i am sure they had maintaince crew for engine. Turkey can always contact them if they want to get even cheaper training at faster pace. I saw MIG-29SMT in Syria and it didnot smoke and that not even advanced engine.

    Last edited by JSR; 14th September 2017 at 04:02.

  2. #572
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    Any reasonable reason, why Turkey should replace its order of F-35 with MiG-35?? Even its already delivered F-16s are more modern and matured.
    ...

    He was my North, my South, my East and West,
    My working week and my Sunday rest,
    My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
    I thought that love would last forever; I was wrong.

    The stars are not wanted now; put out every one:
    Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun;
    Pour away the ocean and sweep up the woods:
    For nothing now can ever come to any good.
    -------------------------------------------------
    W.H.Auden (1945)

  3. #573
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    JSR I don't know where you got the MIG-35 from.

    The last time the Russian and Turkish President's were discussing combat aircraft procurement they were looking at 5th Generation aircraft- a derivative of the PAK-FA.

    Turkey has no interest in the JF-17 or the MIG-35.

    The Turkish Air Force will procure 250 TF-X and another 100 to 150 Combat aircraft in the F-35 class. Then there maybe small orders for the Turkish Navy and Land Forces command.

    Turkey began discussing joint-production of a 5th Generation fighter with Russia's Rostec back in June of this year.

    And for those saying it wont happen- until a few months ago everyone would laugh at the proposition that Turkey was going to licence produce the S-400's!


    Russia, Turkey discuss joint warplanes production

    June 5, 2017 at 3:27 pm | Published in: Europe & Russia, International Organisations, NATO, News, Russia, Turkey
    https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20...es-production/

    Russia and Turkey have been discussing the joint production of fifth generation warplanes, the CEO of Russia’s Rostec Corporation, Sergey Chemezov, revealed.

    Chemezov said the ministries of finance in Russia and Turkey are continuing their consultations in this regard.

    He added that Turkey can assemble its own warplanes and that “Turkey has the required infrastructure. We can create something new and modern together.”

    Earlier, Moscow said it was close to reaching an agreement to sell the S-400 air defence systems to Turkey, the latest sign of restoring relations between the two countries.

    Read: EU countries campaign to block Turkey hosting NATO summit

    “Moscow and Ankara have almost finished discussing the technical issues of the S-400 defence system contract,” Rostec said in a statement.

    Russian President, Vladimir Putin, said on Thursday at the St. Petersburg International Economic Forum (SPIEF) that Moscow was ready to sell its S-400 air defence systems to Turkey.

    The Russian defence minister said earlier that he had held talks with his Turkish counterpart on Ankara’s acquisition of S-400 missile systems.

    Turkey’s desire to acquire this system comes amid growing tension between Turkey and its NATO allies.
    Last edited by Bayar; 14th September 2017 at 16:25.

  4. #574
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    Russia, Turkey discuss joint warplanes production
    And what else do You want to build. Now another fifth generation type with Russia - most likely then based on the T50 - so that Turkey has then the F-35, TF-X and this one ??? How many missile systems and other other fancy stuff is also on the agenda? An LHD, a super-carrier only by the will of Erdogan?? What a joke.

    Come on, this is plain ridiculous and all these projects initiated with much nationalistic fanfare by Sultan Erdogan will soon burst like a soap-bubble if that government does not come back to international standards. This sling-course is only aimed to play one against another and I am convinced that this is not good for Turkey in the long run.

    But we will see.
    Last edited by Deino; 14th September 2017 at 07:28.
    ...

    He was my North, my South, my East and West,
    My working week and my Sunday rest,
    My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
    I thought that love would last forever; I was wrong.

    The stars are not wanted now; put out every one:
    Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun;
    Pour away the ocean and sweep up the woods:
    For nothing now can ever come to any good.
    -------------------------------------------------
    W.H.Auden (1945)

  5. #575
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    The discussions with Russia are merely a contingency plan for the F-35. There is no solid agreement with Rostec of Russia just discussions. Some individuals within the upper echelons of Turkish Government believe the US will not sell Turkey the F-35 in response to the joint projects with Russia and hence why they have begun discussing Russian alternatives as a contingency.

    Turkey's current airforce procurement programs are as follows:

    250 x TF-X;
    100 x F-35;
    20-30 x F-35 for Navy (Land Forces);
    Airborne Stand-off Jammers;
    Airborne Gunships for SEAD missions;
    AWECS
    4-5 Ton Jet Powered UAV system (MIUS)

    Currently there are no Turkish arms programs experiencing significant delays or financing issues. All platforms have been commissioned on time.

    One would note that Turkey had no problem in paying the $500 million deposit required for the S-400's in cash.

    We can however expect delays with projects having a German component such as the Altay MBT (Engine is MTU of Germany) and U-214TN (Steel and propulsion packages) submarines. Thankfully, however our British partners jumped in yesterday and offered us technology support for the Altay engine (the Perkins used in the Challenger 2).

    I think the below also explains how Turkey is funding all this

    Turkey GDP Growth Above 5% Outdone by Only China, India in G-20

    By Onur Ant
    September 11, 2017, 5:25 PM GMT+10 September 11, 2017, 7:03 PM GMT+10
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ublic-spending

    GDP expanded 5.1% in second quarter; survey estimate was 5.3%
    Gross capital formation rose 9.5% in biggest jump since 2015

    Turkey maintained economic growth at levels exceeded only by China and India among G-20 economies, as a surge in construction buoyed output.

    Gross domestic product expanded 5.1 percent during the April-to-June period from a year earlier, slightly lower than the median estimate of 5.3 percent in a Bloomberg survey. The economy grew 2.1 percent from the first quarter, exceeding economists’ 1.8 percent estimate.

    Monday’s report makes Turkish growth one of the fastest among the world’s 20 largest economies and marks the second consecutive quarter where annual expansion topped 5 percent. Investments rose at the highest pace since 2015, led by the construction industry, where big-ticket projects were backed by the government in public-private partnerships.

    Government spending on goods and services slowed at the fastest pace in more than two years, a surprise that brought the headline growth figure lower than the consensus, according to Garanti Bank economist Asuman Kemiksiz, who was among the most accurate forecasters in the survey.

    While the slowdown in government consumption was lower than expected, “there is a visible revival in consumer spending which, along with the rise in exports, will support growth in the third quarter,” she said by phone after the data. “We expect growth to be in the vicinity of 7 percent during that period.”

    Lira Strengthens

    The lira strengthened after the report was published on Monday. It was trading 0.3 percent higher at 3.4007 per dollar at 11:04 a.m. in Istanbul.

    Exports grew 10.5 percent while gross capital formation, a category that includes investments, rose 9.5 percent from a year earlier. Outlays on construction rose 25 percent while spending on machinery and equipment slumped 8.6 percent, falling for the fourth consecutive quarter.

    Household consumption, estimated to make up nearly two-thirds of the economy, grew 3.2 percent from a year earlier, compared to a revised 3.6 percent in the previous quarter. Government spending on wages, goods and services fell 4.3 percent, after growing a revised 9.7 percent in the first quarter.


    The economy grew 6.5 percent in the second quarter when adjusted for number of working days, compared with the median estimate of 5.2 percent in a Bloomberg survey. The Turkish Statistical Institute said annual GDP growth in 2016, when calculated independently from quarterly readings, was 3.2 percent, according to a separate bulletin on its website. The statistics agency began publishing an independent, annual GDP growth report in December.

    — With assistance by Selcan Hacaoglu
    Last edited by Bayar; 14th September 2017 at 09:18.

  6. #576
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    So its only a contingency plan? You got some of us excited when you said:

    Turkey is preparing for withdrawal of export approval for the F-35 in the coming weeks from the US.
    Old radar types never die; they just phased array

  7. #577
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    JSR
    what kind of contribution can Turkey give in a partnership with Russia?
    will they be equal partners?

  8. #578
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    Well BAE Systems and Sierra Nevada Corporation believe that Turkish Aerospace Industries has some good engineers and technology.

    Many Turkish companies also already produce indigenous sub-systems for 4th Generation aircraft and are also in the process of developing 5th Generation sub-systems (AESA radar, IRIST, Mission computer, Avionics etc) for the TF-X. They could easily opt for a Russian Stealth Airframe with Turkish sub-systems.

    Turkey could also use their own indigenous weapons on a Russian airframe.

    We shall wait and see how the Turkey-NATO dispute pans out and whether the US revokes export approval for the F-35. It is all speculation at this stage.

  9. #579
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    Turkish Air Force to conduct tactical flight exercises with Azerbaijani MiQ-29, Su-25, Mi-35 and Mi-17 on September 18 in a bid to familiarize itself with Russian platforms.

    Azerbaijan, Turkey to hold joint tactical-flight exercises
    14.09.2017 [12:22]
    Baku, September 14, AZERTAC
    https://azertag.az/en/xeber/Azerbaij...rcises-1093455

    Air Forces of Azerbaijan and Turkey will begin joint tactical-flight exercises "TurAz Eagle - 2017" on September 18, under the annual military cooperation plan between the Republic of Azerbaijan and the Republic of Turkey.

    About 30 aviation vehicles, including MiQ-29, F-16, Su-25, C-130 Hercules, CASA CN-235 planes, Mi-35, Mi-17 and Sikorski S-70 helicopters belonging to Azerbaijan and Turkey Air Force will participate at the trainings, the press service of the Ministry of Defense reported.

    The exercises will focus on planning joint operations of the Air Force of the two countries, mutual cooperation on operations, combat compromise, search and rescue operations, air strikes, destruction of ground targets and other missions.

    The trainings will last till September 30.

  10. #580
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    Any reasonable reason, why Turkey should replace its order of F-35 with MiG-35?? Even its already delivered F-16s are more modern and matured.
    yeah modern and matured. that's why Turkey cant send this so called matured F-16 and modern F-35 to Qatar. just to defeat Kurds. Turkey need million hundreds of thousands of sorties and millions of bombs. Not to mention advance survellence and recon tech at regional level if not global scale. The only solution is Turkey buying and manufacturing Russian systems at all levels.

  11. #581
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    Turkish Defence officials announce that Turkish S-400 derivatives will use Turkish Identification friend or foe systems and software.

  12. #582
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    There is no way in hell that Turkey will take delivery of 100 F-35's.

    There is some big anniversary for Turkey coming up in 2020 or 22 I think ? Anyway word is that Erdogan wants his 5th gen jet done for this event. He wants these things to be flying around on that date. With the world economy about to enter a cyclical recession, and with Turkey's economy flat lining, the country will not be able to afford the procurement list that we see today.

    Erdogan is going to be looking for money to speed up the 5th gen program. I think he's going to find some in the F 35 column. F 35 procurement is going to reduced to free up money for the 5 gen.

  13. #583
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    Any reasonable reason, why Turkey should replace its order of F-35 with MiG-35?? Even its already delivered F-16s are more modern and matured.
    Yeah. To free up money that needs to go into the 5th gen program that has a hard deadline date.

    And if Turkey doesnt get F 35's at all, maybe Turkey could join the UAE/Russia 5th gen program.
    Last edited by KGB; 16th September 2017 at 06:36.

  14. #584
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    Turkey has zero problems with financing these projects. The funds for the majority of projects have already been paid in any case.

    The Turkish economy is the fastest growing economy in the world after China and India.

    At $2.082 trillion GDP (PPP, 2017)/ $0.861 trillion GDP (Nominal, 2015) Turkey has no problems in financing a portfolio of $100 billion worth of arms over the next 5 years.

    In any case our Qatari brothers will step in if and when the need arises.

    I wouldn't place your bets on the Turkish economy going bust. For the past 12 years since the AKP came to power everyone said it was imminent for the Turkish Economy to go bust. It is still up and running.

    All this speculation is primarily because Turkey has declared a de facto war on the USD. Turkey-Russia-China have agreed to trade in national currencies and Russia, China, Iran, Pakistan and Turkey are discussing a common currency. This has made some circles uncomfortable.
    Last edited by Bayar; 16th September 2017 at 11:16.

  15. #585
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    There is no way in hell that Turkey will take delivery of 100 F-35's.

    There is some big anniversary for Turkey coming up in 2020 or 22 I think ? Anyway word is that Erdogan wants his 5th gen jet done for this event. He wants these things to be flying around on that date. With the world economy about to enter a cyclical recession, and with Turkey's economy flat lining, the country will not be able to afford the procurement list that we see today.

    Erdogan is going to be looking for money to speed up the 5th gen program. I think he's going to find some in the F 35 column. F 35 procurement is going to reduced to free up money for the 5 gen
    Even world economics go bust Turkey will still getting business. They are the lowest price vacation spot. There airlines also have one of the lowest prices and interconnected. Plus a lot of energy pipelines goes through turkey so transit revenues. Turkish construction firms have reputation in the whole region and also one of the cheapest.
    https://www.thenational.ae/business/...minal-1.224541
    Limak signs $4.34bn deal to build Kuwait International Airport terminal
    they have to eat it at reasonable price.
    http://food-exhibitions.com/Market-I...Arabian-demand
    Turkish fruit & veg to fill Saudi Arabian demand
    there are a lot of other things that are low cost. when Middleast and EU get poor with time they need the cheaper Turkey. where else you get mass produce cheap auto parts?

  16. #586
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    This article surveys in detail Turkish shipbuilding. It is great! In addition, it naturally touches on aviation projects involving the Navy, including the F-35 and S-70.

    http://navalanalyses.blogspot.com/20...ation-and.html

    On the Turkish defense budget, remember Turkey has a younger population and less welfare state spending per capita then other NATO countries. Also, paramount leader Erdogan likes projects that increase national prestige. Further, there is a right wing, pro-military political party that could siphon votes from the ruling party if it got soft on defense. Finally, Turkey has had a large conscript army throughout much of the 20th century and citizens are used to seeing bases everywhere in the country.

  17. #587
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    @Bayar

    Im not saying that the Turkish economy will go bust. It won't. I just think the world economy is going to be flat.

    But man.. buying 100 F 35's while developing your own 5th gen jet is as big of a splurge that I could think of. Even if the economy is fine and financing is easy, its just a massive undertaking that could get very very expensive.

    @mil
    Also, paramount leader Erdogan likes projects that increase national prestige.
    I know. Hence why if there's any sign of trouble, the F 35s will be the 1st to go. And the TFX will always be top priority.

    I think the F 35 export to Turkey is done anyway. The US cannot take that risk. Erdogan disclosed US bases in Syriajust to **** the US off. They cant risk that he would paint an F 35 with the S400 and release the results.
    Last edited by KGB; 16th September 2017 at 18:43.

  18. #588
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    I know. Hence why if there's any sign of trouble, the F 35s will be the 1st to go. And the TFX will always be top priority.
    Turkish firms are subcontractors on the F-35 so Turkey dropping out would cause all sorts of issues for the program. The quantity of aircraft could be cut back. Also, having the F-35 actually increases military prestige as everyone knows it is a powerful, fifth generation aircraft. The F-35 will likely be a higher performing aircraft once all is done than the lower end TFX, although of course the TFX specs are not public knowledge. Here are some Turkish subcontractors:

    https://www.f35.com/global/participa...-participation

    I think the F 35 export to Turkey is done anyway. The US cannot take that risk. Erdogan disclosed US bases in Syriajust to **** the US off. They cant risk that he would paint an F 35 with the S400 and release the results.
    Turkish firms are subcontractors on the F-35 and Turkey has been part of the F-35 since 2002, which makes 15 years now. Turkey is a major player in NATO. All of this makes such an abrupt break in Turkish-American relationships unlikely.

  19. #589
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    @mil

    The Turkey of 2002 is not the Turkey of 2017. Turkey of 2017 is a defacto dictatorship.

    And sure the stakes in the F 35 and Turkey are high. And a backpedal on the F 35 on the US's part would be very messy. But that's not uncommon in geopolitics.

    Just look at the Russia/France Mistral ship deal. Or the Iran deal. Russia thought it had a customer for life for the Sukhoi Superjet. Then all of sudden comes the Iran deal. And overnight, Iran inked billion dollar contracts with Airbus and Boeing and told Russia to F off.

    How could the US possibly risk sending the F 35 to an S400 operator ?

  20. #590
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    But man.. buying 100 F 35's while developing your own 5th gen jet is as big of a splurge that I could think of. Even if the economy is fine and financing is easy, its just a massive undertaking that could get very very expensive.
    The financing model of the 100 F-35's were determined and allocated in 2002 when Turkey joined the JSF Corsorsium as a Level III partner. The Turkish Treasury had been allocating several billion dollars per year for the F-35 procurement since then (2002). The cost of the F-35 acquisition was spread out over 10 years since 2002. Thus, the F-35 acquisition will have no bearing on current Turkish Defence products. The same applies for the acquisition of 1000 Altay MBT's, U-214TN Submarines, T-129 Attack helicopter, LHD's/Light carriers, and the costs of the Turkish bases in Somalia and Qatar.

    All Turkey has to finance now is the TF-X, S-400 derivative, Aster-30 derivative, TF-2000 Frigates etc. These will amount to approximately $100 billion. Turkey needs to allocate $20 billion per year for the next 5 years to fund these projects. This figure is peanuts for a G20 country with a GDP (PPP) of $2 Trillion.

    The Turkey of 2002 is not the Turkey of 2017. Turkey of 2017 is a defacto dictatorship.
    So the West would have you believe.

    Does this look like a hated Dictator to you?



    How could the US possibly risk sending the F 35 to an S400 operator ?
    Turkey has a cheaper contingency plan in the event that the F-35 is not exported to Turkey.

    Licence produce the PAK-FA using Turkish subsystems developed for the TF-X with BAE Systems. Use the funds allocated for the F-35 acquisition to co-develop this PAK-FA derivative.

    It must be noted however that President Trump is working overtime to restore relations with Turkey and the two leaders are due to meet on 22 September 2017. Trump has also said that he will not allow DC and New York officials to prosecute the Turkish Secret Service officers or the former Turkish Economy Minister. He also added that he would streamline ToT for Turkey on US Defence products. The US has also warned the Kurds not to seek a referendum on Statehood.

    It seems as though the US does not want Turkey to join the Russia-China-Iran-Pakistan Pact.
    Last edited by Bayar; 17th September 2017 at 06:57.

  21. #591
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    I think the F 35 export to Turkey is done anyway. The US cannot take that risk. Erdogan disclosed US bases in Syriajust to **** the US off. They cant risk that he would paint an F 35 with the S400 and release the results.
    I don't think US will have problem with F-35 export. it may not export just for entirely different reason as it may not want to export anything that hasn't been exported to rest of Middleast.

    Airbus/Boeing make there own relationship with Iran. They wont allow competitor that has parts made in US to be exported
    https://lenta.ru/news/2017/08/10/gss_ofac_superjet/
    The manufacturer of the Sukhoi Superjet 100 - Sukhoi Civil Aircraft (SCU) - prepared the documents and sent an application to the Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC) of the US Treasury to approve the shipments to Iran. This was reported to "Lente.ru" in the GSS.
    "The SCA application is pending at OFAC. The term of its consideration is individual for each case and is not regulated by this structure, "the representative of the company said.

  22. #592
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    Dictatorship is not about hate or love. It's about the means which ruler is using to stay in power.

    Dictatorship is a form of government in which a country or a group of countries is ruled by one person (a dictator) or by a polity, and power (social and political) is exercised through various mechanisms to ensure that the entity's power remains strong.[1][2]

    A dictatorship is a type of authoritarianism, in which politicians regulate nearly every aspect of the public and private behavior of citizens. Dictatorship and totalitarian societies generally employ political propaganda to decrease the influence of proponents of alternative governing systems. In the past, different religious tactics were used by dictators to maintain their rule, such as the monarchical system in the west.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship
    Oh, completely forgot...Welcome to our Club.
    Last edited by Scar; 17th September 2017 at 14:16.

  23. #593
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    I'll debunk this whole theory with one comment:

    The Highest Court in Turkey is the European Court of Human Rights. It is composed of Judges primarily from the European Union. Members of the European Union despise President Erdogan. But guess what- the EcHR has rejected many appeals from Turks accused of the 15 July Coup attempt...

    e.g. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-t...-idUSKBN1AI2B7

    Turkey thus has an independent judiciary and hence cannot be called a dictatorship. Perhaps you guys are mixing Egypt with Turkey.

  24. #594
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    Dunno how this court is related to the real internal political system. Nominally, in Russia it is the highest court institution, as well. But who cares when it comes to decisions of our Dear Leader?!

  25. #595
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    I believe there was a Gulenist conspiracy in the failed coup. Erdogan certainly used the coup to clean house. I am not sure how independent any institution in Turkey is these days. From the defense perspective, the US and other NATO members have little to gain from squabbling with Turkey over its internal affairs but I admire the US government for refusing to extradite Gulen without evidence that would stand up in a US court of law.

    The Kurdish independence referendum in Iraq is another matter entirely as the Iraqi Kurds have been Western allies for many years now but have an ambiguous relationship with Turkey. Of course, Iraqi Kurdistan is no paragon of multiparty democracy.

  26. #596
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    There is only one reason as to why Fetullah Gulen has not been extradited to Turkey and that is due to his close ties with the CIA. Gulen knows far too much about CIA activities in Central Asia. After all, his schools there are CIA Fronts. Just ask Mr. Graham Fuller the guy that signed off on letters of support for Gulens VISA documents.
    Last edited by Bayar; 18th September 2017 at 01:31.

  27. #597
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    Ok sure, a 70+ year old cleric living in the US led tens of thousands into a coup attempt. Sure, makes perfect sense. In Erdogan's Turkey a "Gulenist" means a non- Erdoganist No more, no less.
    Last edited by FBW; 18th September 2017 at 01:45.

  28. #598
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    @Bayar
    So the West would have you believe.

    Does this look like a hated Dictator to you?
    No I agree with you 100%. Erdogan has popular support and he's doing what he has to do. Just like Assad ect.

    What I meant was though, that the west see's Erdogan as a dictator. They don't see the govt as legitimate anymore.
    And remember. The US does have all the Gulf allies. And none of them are getting the F 35.

    If I was a Turkish nationalist, Im not sure that I'd want the F 35. Pour that money into the TF X

    It seems as though the US does not want Turkey to join the Russia-China-Iran-Pakistan Pact.
    Erdogan will have none of it. The US commited the cardinal sin against the Turks. They started and have every intention of arming and funding the Kurds near their border. Erdogan might be pressured by Trump, but the hardliners in Turkey will pressure him back.
    Last edited by KGB; 18th September 2017 at 03:10.

  29. #599
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    @mil
    Erdogan certainly used the coup to clean house.
    I disagree. Leaders do things for good reasons usually. We can see that with Iraq. Iraq as it was drawn up, had to be ruled with an iron fist. So thats what Saddam Hussein did.

  30. #600
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    @FBW if you want to learn more about Fetullah Gulen just read about him from US sources...

    http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/07/18/...thullah-gulen/
    http://www.williamengdahl.com/englishNEO9Aug2016.php

    President Erdogan is currently in New York and due to meet President Trump in a bid to settle the dispute between 2 countries.

    In a surprise move US Secret Service imposed 3 exclusion (freeze) zones around the Turkish President to prevent a repeat of the scuffle that occurred in front of a Turkish Diplomatic compound a few months ago in DC leading to the political fall out. DC officials had issued arrest warrants for Turkish Secret Service officers and a Turkish Minister. Turkey stated that it would not allow the diplomatic inviolability of the diplomatic agents to be violated under any circumstances. President Trump diffused the situation when he telephoned President Erdogan and expressed his sadness and vowed not to allow State law enforcement officials to "touch" Turkish diplomats using Federal Laws.

    Last edited by Bayar; 18th September 2017 at 04:06.

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