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Thread: Korea's KF-X: News & Discussion

  1. #61
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    Something strikes me about the Korean/Indonesian, Indian, Turkish projects 5G projects. They all need TOT and because they are different projects, there will be multiple payments for TOT. There is a constraint on development costs for all these projects. I hear a report that the Turkish military is not enthusiastic about the Turkish project, being concerned that it will take up too much of the military budget. Cost overruns are the norm for these types of project. It would be sad if some of these projects were delayed by many, many years or even eventually abandoned due to lack of funding. Would it not have been more sensible to agree a useable (ideal for none) design and to build it together.

    I expect the response saying that it would not meet the specifications of the different armed forces but overall I think that compromising on specifications to save money actually increases the capability of an armed force because other equipment that could not be afforded within the budget becomes affordable.

    Another thing: suppose India selects a higher thrust version of GE-F414 for the AMCA (and pays for its development), that means Korea or Turkey could then select the same engine without having to pay for its development. I know the KF-X project is more advanced so it's more likely Korea would be paying for the thrust increase but you get the idea.
    Sum ergo cogito

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by KGB View Post
    This will be a bottomless money pit and a drain on the tax payer and treasury. And since they are starting from rock bottom with a clean slate design, it will become a political scandal and a national embarrassment just like the F 35 is. Cost overruns, unforeseen problems ect.

    There is no economic reason to do this
    I'm quite sure that u haven't read my first posting in this thread. As I've said, once more saying it, Korea have done numerous feasibility research which always resulted to be not feasible. What got KF-X through was an extremely high price of current and next generation aircraft produced overseas. What ROKAF cannot afford to do is spend all this goddamned money on those foreign products and get blamed for the budgetary outflow to other countries, benefiting their industry and economy. I, myself, personally was also against KFX and wanted the ROKAF to stick with the F-35, build a FACO and build a trustworthy power for an air dominance in near future. Though now it has gone through, thus their reason for doing this is quite reasonable, just like what eagle spirit said.
    Last edited by Maro.Kyo; 9th March 2017 at 21:07.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maro.Kyo View Post
    I'm quite sure that u haven't read my first posting in this thread. As I've said, once more saying it, Korea have done numerous feasibility research which always resulted to be not feasible. What got KF-X through was an extremely high price of current and next generation aircraft produced overseas. What ROKAF cannot afford to do is spend all this goddamned money on those foreign products and get blamed for the budgetary outflow to other countries, benefiting their industry and economy. I, myself, personally was also against KFX and wanted the ROKAF to stick with the F-35, build a FACO and build a trustworthy power for an air dominance in near future. Though now it has gone through, thus their reason for doing this is quite reasonable, just like what eagle spirit said.
    Why is spending money an issue?

    Unlike Turkey, South Korea has a GDP larger than Russia and Russia has no problem spending money on advanced weapon systems. The thing ROK lacks is long-term experience in building advanced weapons.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maro.Kyo View Post
    I'm quite sure that u haven't read my first posting in this thread. As I've said, once more saying it, Korea have done numerous feasibility research which always resulted to be not feasible. What got KF-X through was an extremely high price of current and next generation aircraft produced overseas. What ROKAF cannot afford to do is spend all this goddamned money on those foreign products and get blamed for the budgetary outflow to other countries, benefiting their industry and economy. I, myself, personally was also against KFX and wanted the ROKAF to stick with the F-35, build a FACO and build a trustworthy power for an air dominance in near future. Though now it has gone through, thus their reason for doing this is quite reasonable, just like what eagle spirit said.
    Feasibility studies are always done but it doesn't change anything.

    Political parties use these kinds of programs as cannon fodder against each other. Who even knows what the truth is. The French aircraft carrier is just one example.

    S.Korea just has to decide if this is all worth it. Is it worth going down this road. The country is embroiled in a political crisis right now. So partisanship is alive and well. Whoever signs off on a full development program will be the 1st casualty.

    As aviation fanboys, who wouldn't want another 5th gen project to watch for the next 10 years ? Im all eyes and your technical input is welcome. We can separate the politics from the technical. I am speaking strictly on the political side now because that is where the project is.
    Last edited by KGB; 9th March 2017 at 17:01.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by KGB View Post
    I think Pierre Sprey is going to be right. There won't be more than 500 F-35's built.
    I think Pierre Sprey is the loon that he's always sounded like. There will be more than 500 F-35s delivered by 2020.

  6. #66
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    With the LRIP 10 contract, 373 F-35's (all types) are currently on firm order (200+ out of those have been delivered). This year the JPO intends to definitize the LRIP-11 contract which would bring the total ordered between 450-500+ range (don't know LRIP 11 off the top of my head). Additionally, LRIP 12 advanced funding is also going to be released this year which should take this number to beyond 600.
    Last edited by bring_it_on; 9th March 2017 at 19:24.
    Old radar types never die; they just phased array

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by bring_it_on View Post
    With the LRIP 10 contract, 373 F-35's (all types) are currently on firm order (200+ out of those have been delivered). This year the JPO intends to definitize the LRIP-11 contract which would bring the total ordered between 450-500+ range (don't know LRIP 11 off the top of my head). Additionally, LRIP 12 advanced funding is also going to be released this year which should take this number to beyond 600.
    Thing is that while the USA could cancel all further F-35's at any time (including contracted lots), short of declaring production of F-35 illegal, LM will deliver several hundred more frames. Enough to go way past 500.
    Sum ergo cogito

  8. #68
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    Yeah..those who truly believe that "there won't be more than 500 aircraft built" are going to be disappointed very soon. But they are quite likely to shift that to " no more than 700...then 900...1200 etc" .
    Old radar types never die; they just phased array

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by djcross View Post
    Why is spending money an issue?

    Unlike Turkey, South Korea has a GDP larger than Russia and Russia has no problem spending money on advanced weapon systems. The thing ROK lacks is long-term experience in building advanced weapons.
    Korea has different kind of GDP than Russia. Korean population is buried under debt and will go further under debt if they pull the limited engineering talent they produce into non productive sectors like building fighter plane.On other hand Russia can freely spend as much it wants.

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    Quote Originally Posted by djcross View Post
    Why is spending money an issue?

    Unlike Turkey, South Korea has a GDP larger than Russia and Russia has no problem spending money on advanced weapon systems. The thing ROK lacks is long-term experience in building advanced weapons.
    Why do ppl overlook the fact that aviation was always one of Russia's natural specialties ? And military arms.

    Korea trying to build a world class fighter jet from scratch is like Russia trying to build a smartphone from scratch with the intention of competing with Samsung. Again. Both countries are capable. It is not impossible. Its just not practical.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spitfire9 View Post
    Something strikes me about the Korean/Indonesian, Indian, Turkish projects 5G projects. They all need TOT and because they are different projects, there will be multiple payments for TOT. There is a constraint on development costs for all these projects. I hear a report that the Turkish military is not enthusiastic about the Turkish project, being concerned that it will take up too much of the military budget. Cost overruns are the norm for these types of project. It would be sad if some of these projects were delayed by many, many years or even eventually abandoned due to lack of funding. Would it not have been more sensible to agree a useable (ideal for none) design and to build it together.

    I expect the response saying that it would not meet the specifications of the different armed forces but overall I think that compromising on specifications to save money actually increases the capability of an armed force because other equipment that could not be afforded within the budget becomes affordable.
    Well, Spitfir9, your perspective on these projects are quite correct but let me give u some further information for better understandings.

    First off, KF-X ain't a fully capable F-35 or F-3 alike 5th gen fighter development program but something in between the legacy 4.5th gen fighters and the 5th gen, I'll name it a 4.5th gen+ (TBH, I don't like using and seeing this "4.5+ gen" or "4.75" thingy, thanks to Russian folks who are so obsessed labeling their fighters 4.75th gen or 4.5th++ gen and so on, though IMHO for the KF-X this term suits perfectly). The Block.3 KF-X will replace the obsolete F-5s. What they aim to do is to upgrade the KF-X after Block.3 into something like Block.4(which doesn't even exist in the moment) 5th gen KF-X in the 2030s to replace F-16PBs and KF-16s.

    I'm actually quite sure the AMCA will fail for the Indians like their Tejas and so do the TFX of the Turks, who aims to buy 100 F-35s, has way less money than Korea and a technology nothing better than Korea's late 2000s. In fact the Turks already had much problems designing the turboprop Hurkus, leading to extra WoongBi purchase from Korea.
    Actually, before deciding to stick on their own with some help from SAAB and BAE, there were some discussion across Koreans and Turks for co-development in KF-X program, though the Turks were unsatisfied with their share in KF-X program and went indigenous. Also, the initial concept of TFX was just the same as FA-50; to build a supersonic trainer/fighter so a combat capable LIFT. This got changed some how afterwards and become the 5th gen fighter development of today.

    Anyways, talking about the funding, at least KF-X wouldn't have such problem; not saying this with an irrational rosy optimistic perspective but a fact. The fact that ROKAF is only left with KF-X for the near future, let’s say, till mid 2030s. ROKAF cannot afford to do anything else if the KF-X fails. Their fighter fleet will collapse to 260 from something near 460. If the costs doubles or whatsoever, ROKAF would still be forced to continue the KF-X program, just like the JSF for USAF; choice is something that doesn't exists.

    In comparison to Korea, who needs to face a crazy maniac with nukes and subs on the North, sponsor of this maniac on the West across the sea, a bear on the further North without any nukes inland, Turks and Indians have a waaay better situation. All their close neighbours are less capable than them, thus they are already gonna deploy other kind of assured 5th gen fighters in numbers unlike Korea, who was only able to buy 40 F-35s with the initial budget planned to buy 60 aircrafts, thus would only be able to buy 20 additional F-35s which is in plan. Therefore, once more to be clear, KF-X is now irreversible and irreplaceable and will be forced to go through any kind of difficulties.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spitfire9 View Post
    Another thing: suppose India selects a higher thrust version of GE-F414 for the AMCA (and pays for its development), that means Korea or Turkey could then select the same engine without having to pay for its development. I know the KF-X project is more advanced so it's more likely Korea would be paying for the thrust increase but you get the idea.
    Well, that's also in the agenda. Initial KF-X Blocks will be fitted with contracted F414-GE-400s, but according to GE, those F414-GE-400s can be refitted, replacing a few parts to be upgraded into EPE equivalent. Like what you have mentioned, India has decided to fund the EPE version of F414 so it will not going to be us to pay the development, thus I guess this is one of the main reason that F414 got selected over EJ200 apart from other numerous reasons.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by djcross View Post
    Why is spending money an issue?

    Unlike Turkey, South Korea has a GDP larger than Russia and Russia has no problem spending money on advanced weapon systems. The thing ROK lacks is long-term experience in building advanced weapons.
    Well, the thing is, in the 3rd F-X, Korea wasn't even able to afford initially planned 60 aircraft due to the high cost of F-35 and was only able to get 40. Also, it is waay easier to get the defense budget approved when your buying a domestic product, due to the fact that congressmen usually prefers a domestic product that can create jobs, develop advanced technology, prevents the outflow of foreign currency, protect the domestic industry, etc. over a foreign product.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by KGB View Post
    Feasibility studies are always done but it doesn't change anything.

    Political parties use these kinds of programs as cannon fodder against each other. Who even knows what the truth is. The French aircraft carrier is just one example.

    S.Korea just has to decide if this is all worth it. Is it worth going down this road. The country is embroiled in a political crisis right now. So partisanship is alive and well. Whoever signs off on a full development program will be the 1st casualty.

    As aviation fanboys, who wouldn't want another 5th gen project to watch for the next 10 years ? Im all eyes and your technical input is welcome. We can separate the politics from the technical. I am speaking strictly on the political side now because that is where the project is.
    Well, I'm not blaming you for saying anything and like what I've said, I was a F-35 supporter over KF-X before it got approved. What I'm basically saying is that it would have been a whole better choice to stick with the F-35 and just build a technology demonstrator for the future, but what's actually going on is that KF-X is now something real and getting worked on, thus the reason the ROKAF mentioned for developing KF-X ain't hard to understand and is also reasonable and rational on the other hand. Like what I've said, ROKAF experienced a some real expenses purchasing a 5th gen aircraft, not even being able to afford the initially aimed 60 wings but only 40. Thus, KF-X is not even a real 5th gen.

    All together in a line, F-35 would have been better but is still understandable and IMHO, worth getting this KF-X program into work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JSR View Post
    Korea has different kind of GDP than Russia. Korean population is buried under debt and will go further under debt if they pull the limited engineering talent they produce into non productive sectors like building fighter plane.On other hand Russia can freely spend as much it wants.

    What do you mean by different kind of GDP? Different currency due to some recent events? Different industries? What so ever it is, I personally think Korea still has a better fiscal sustainability/health than Russia now days, whose main industry is natural resources unlike Korea. Well it would have been a big problem if there were the next oil shock/crisis to come in a year or two but that ain't the case now and for the near future. In fact Russia is undergoing reduction of military budget from this year and will continue for the next several years.

    Thus even though Korean citizen are under debt, that is not the only case of Korea but all around the world thanks to subprime-mortgage crisis 9 years ago and European citizen along the former American middle-class are going though same kind of difficulties. Moreover, governmental debt is really low in Korea, being only around 35~ 8% of GDP and still around 68 % of GDP when all the debts of public/government enterprises and institutions are putted into account. The households debt of 2017 is around $ 40600 per economically active population and is half of that when the debt is divided by all the population capable of economically over the age of 15. So it needs some help from appropriate gov. policy but ain't as serious as the nuance of what you've wrote.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halloweene View Post
    Nice, but shouldn't it be on a different dedicated topic?
    Well, I've thought of doing so but I would eventually be updating this thread whenever I get an additional information and news so I've posted it here. Seems like people aren't giving much attention to this thread or the topic so I would rather make a new dedicated thread named, for example "Plasma application on fighters" if possible, tho I'm not sure if its alright to post a same thing on a different thread on the same time.
    Personally, I find this thing very interesting and maybe can be a game changer of aircraft and weapons development in the near future, well not only weapons but so many varieties of possible application and would like to discuss more about this topic so I'll do make a new thread if anyone tells me that it's ok to do so

  17. #77
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    There is a thread (or maybe more than one) on plasma tech

    http://forum.keypublishing.com/showt...ghlight=plasma

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maro.Kyo View Post
    Well, I've thought of doing so but I would eventually be updating this thread whenever I get an additional information and news so I've posted it here. Seems like people aren't giving much attention to this thread or the topic so I would rather make a new dedicated thread named, for example "Plasma application on fighters" if possible, tho I'm not sure if its alright to post a same thing on a different thread on the same time.
    Personally, I find this thing very interesting and maybe can be a game changer of aircraft and weapons development in the near future, well not only weapons but so many varieties of possible application and would like to discuss more about this topic so I'll do make a new thread if anyone tells me that it's ok to do so
    i think you can google translate if you wish. ONERA is working on plasma, but they did not publish any paper about stealth since. (Although they did about actuators, laminar flow control etc.)

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maro.Kyo View Post
    What do you mean by different kind of GDP? Different currency due to some recent events? Different industries? What so ever it is, I personally think Korea still has a better fiscal sustainability/health than Russia now days, whose main industry is natural resources unlike Korea. Well it would have been a big problem if there were the next oil shock/crisis to come in a year or two but that ain't the case now and for the near future. In fact Russia is undergoing reduction of military budget from this year and will continue for the next several years.

    Thus even though Korean citizen are under debt, that is not the only case of Korea but all around the world thanks to subprime-mortgage crisis 9 years ago and European citizen along the former American middle-class are going though same kind of difficulties. Moreover, governmental debt is really low in Korea, being only around 35~ 8% of GDP and still around 68 % of GDP when all the debts of public/government enterprises and institutions are putted into account. The households debt of 2017 is around $ 40600 per economically active population and is half of that when the debt is divided by all the population capable of economically over the age of 15. So it needs some help from appropriate gov. policy but ain't as serious as the nuance of what you've wrote.
    Russia has different kind of GDP. Russia can bomb Middleast and import price rise will be paid by Korea. Corporate Korea is completely depended on foreign skills, raw materials, markets, industry. It is inherently deeply corrupt. Russia has made Yota phone based on imported components but it can fully manufacture most advance communication devices for military. Just look Putin official planes. but not in millions that need millions in third world labor to manufacture and diversified sofyware, marketing and sales teams for each market that can make the host country dysfunctional.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maro.Kyo View Post
    ..
    OT but have you come across a higher resolution picture of this (screen grab)? Or any photo of all of the ROKAF's E-7's together?
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by bring_it_on; 10th March 2017 at 03:39.
    Old radar types never die; they just phased array

  21. #81
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    balance beam awacs is sexy
    why can't they put that on the osprey?

  22. #82
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    South Korea's president is removed from office as court upholds her impeachment
    How will it impact the program?

    Definitively, there seems to be a Rafale plague for those women head of state that discard the Fr favorite.
    Last edited by TomcatViP; 11th March 2017 at 07:25.

  23. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomcatViP View Post
    South Korea's president is removed from office as court upholds her impeachment
    How will it impact the program?

    Definitively, there seems to be a Rafale plague for those women head of gov that discard the Fr favorite.
    well Park was right wing and pro US

    the opposition party is left wing and wants peace, so maybe some military cuts.
    also more French friendly.

  24. #84
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    confused...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Y-20 Bacon View Post
    well Park was right wing and pro US

    the opposition party is left wing and wants peace, so maybe some military cuts.
    also more French friendly.
    Order some Dassaults brah.

    Why isnt Dassault making a stealth body kit to keep up with the jones's /

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    Well, KF-X is already off the political hands right now. Like what I've said above, if KF-X fails, ROKAF fails. They're in a kind of a "all-in" alike state. And their card on their hands is KF-X. President change is unlikely to change the fate of this program, thus the history rewinds back till early 200s so its quite old.

    Also, the current defense related issue in Korea is THAAD, BMD (KAMD) Kill-Chain and so on, sth related to defending Korea against the nukes and other kinds of unconventional arms of NK; things were really politic and diplomatic related to THAAD, right wing conservatives and left wing progressives, China and US and so on. Guess you already get what I mean. KF-X has already been forgotten from the mass media and the citizens, thus the political scene.

  27. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Y-20 Bacon
    well Park was right wing and pro US

    the opposition party is left wing and wants peace, so maybe some military cuts.
    also more French friendly.
    I don't like talking about sth politic in a military forum but I gotta get wrong things right:
    Indeed, was former pres., current criminal Park pro US when she was in the Blue House? Duh, definitely a no.

    In fact, Park was a diplomatic - actually not only that, those whole 4 yrs with Park in the Blue House, in any kinds of ways - disaster for S.Korea. What she have done is something called a "balanced diplomacy" (which already has been tried out early 2000s and failed like a sinking ship) in Korea. Simply put, distanced from the US and get closer to some other neighbors, in this case, China. For the first time, she even attended the Chinese "Day of Victory over Japan" parade. Not only that but Park has done various things to favor China. What changed this mood and situation was NK.
    They've conducted two nuclear experiments and developed a SLBM and a SSB to launch it. What did their boss China do?: Nothing. In fact, until now for such a long time, China helped NK in various ways, evading UNSC sanctions and mandates, sending them trucks and equipment which can be used to produce TELs, produce various PGM, BM, send Oil for NK to use and setting up a connection between NK and other allies of China such as Iran and Pakistan to support North Korean nuclear development.

    Now one thing was so damn clear; China will never stop supporting NK.
    There is an ultra famous ancient Chinese idiom which sounds "using the enemy to strike another enemy" or "take control of a group by using another group's"(以夷制夷). This is just the case in Korean Peninsula. They're using NK and let SK and NK go against each other to take an upper hand in the game of supremacy in the Far East.

    Now if that is the case, getting closer to China was such a stupid idea (well it was a stupid idea ever since the Korean War). US was already so uncomfortable so what was Korea able to do to full-fill US favors to get the diplomatic situation back into its original form before the Park? Oh its so obvious ㅡ get closer to Japan and let the US deploy THAAD.
    Getting THAAD deployed in S.Kor was already a Korean benefit but the problem was China bitcxxxx-off, just like what they've actually done after S.Kor letting the US deploy THAAD. Other problem was the left wings of Korean politics, and the correlation of THAAD to BMD program of US and Japan, which Korea was ever avoiding to get fully involved (its quite funny to say this, cuz Korea already attain most of the BMD info from AMD CELL of US which is connected to KAMD CELL). Moreover, it was the US who wanted to deploy THAAD in Korea more than the Korean Gov. itself so Korea was using this as some sorta diplomatic leverage; THAAD is not just simply a terminal high altitude BMD system, but something more than that in S.Kor.

    However as I've said we needed sth to be used as a diplomatic leverage to calm the US distrust on S.Kor and it was THAAD; now one may see how things are going.

    In fact, there are some rumors in S.Kor about Former Pres. Park (the dicatator and the father of the daughter and latest Pres. Park in this case), that he was assassinated by US instigation because he was ordering the Korean nuclear developments at the time. Thinking about the fact, that Park was even into shamanism, there is enough and confident belief that Park was personally and emotionally against the US.


    Anyways, overall and all together, Park wasn't pro US. It was China and NK who made the Gov. become one.




    Apart from that, how you described Korean left wing as they want peace... Yeah partially right, but something more important is that they are one of the most stupid people in the world with rosy and unrealistic agenda in their mind. They're not French friendly but rather anti-US and therefore looks more like a pro-European. They don't understand whats going on, nor they know anything about current diplomatic situations. What they only care regarding the national security of S.Kor is to "talk" with the NK (which already failed early 2000s and Korea only paid them to develope nuclear weapons with S.Korean rice), get away from "evil", "warmongering" US and get closer to China. Now some ideas? If they gain a full political victory, some budgetary cuts in KAMD or KMPR or Kill Chain developements will possibly be there but this is unlikely, due to the fact that even if they win the next presidential elections, still the right wing has an upper hand in the parliament.


    Actually, apart from all what I wrote above, no matter left or right, KF-X is anyways not going to be affected by any governments as this a life line of ROKAF in 20s, is somewhat indigenous and not US-built like the F-35 and will benefit the Korean industry.
    Last edited by Maro.Kyo; 27th April 2017 at 10:44.

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    KF-X IWB developments news

    It was already assured that KF-X will have IWB and alaik it was going to be the block. 2 where IWB was going to be tested and authorized to be combat capable.
    Although the IWB was confirmed, details were only under speculations but now, those awaited details are released.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    (photo courtsey Sheldon blog.naver.com/jhst3103)
    The IWB R&D will be based on C107 model, starting this summer on June.
    The R&D will start with simplified models such as an IWB without any internal compartments and will be continued for a more specific and complicated forms with internal compartments and armaments.

    Armaments models to be tested are 4 AMRAAM configuration and 2 AMRAAM + 4 SDB configuration (That is a typo of GBU-39). Koreans are speculating that KF-X's IWB ain't deep/big enough for a GBU-32 but thinking about that Koreans are developing their own JDAM alike body kit for Mk.32, a GBU-38 may fit each IWB sections with an AMRAAM aside.

    The modelling altitude is 30,000 ft.

    Specific analyzing subsections are "IWB counterbalancing research" and "analyzing optimal designs". "analyzing optimal designs" are also divided into "comparison of shortlisted designs" "researches on influences of internal compartments" and "researches on influences of armaments in IWB"
    Flow analyzing will be done on speeds of Mach 0.8/0.95/1.1/1.8 with AOA of -5,0,5,10
    below that are specific compartments/items metioned. From the left, those are depth, width, lenght, door opening angles, ramp angles, ans spoiler.

    In fact, ROKAF aims to acquire 20 more F-35s so 60 all together, thus they also plan to conduct a RMP for 60 F-15Ks along with acquisitions of lots of KEPD-350 and its Korean equivalent. That means KF-X doesn't need to be a fighter-bomber when on a stealthy load-outs like F-35. I guess they only plan to use KF-X's LO abilities for D-DAY and DAY+x aerial sweep, DCA and SEAD. After that, they will probably be armed externally with some heavier JDAMs for strike and AI, thinking about the fact that targeting pods will also be loaded externally anyways.
    Last edited by Maro.Kyo; 27th April 2017 at 09:59.

  29. #89
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    Korea will belly up before it can afford real KFX. neither China or US will tolerate trade surpluses.

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    where be the pics of c107

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