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Thread: Flt Sgt Copping's P-40 From The Egyptian Desert

  1. #2491
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    Are there any lessons to be learned from this affair?

  2. #2492
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    There may be lessons, but whether anybody will learn from them is another matter
    Mike

  3. #2493
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    I have not seen this video of the recovery posted previously.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ov8jVroC820

  4. #2494
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    Great find ! How has that been up for nearly three years and had just 105 views?

    It seems to have been a very competent operation, not a cutting torch in sight ! Interesting that they chose to work at night, to avoid the searing heat I suppose. These are the Kennet crew, presumably.

    Amazing rich colours still in the roundel under the wing, which never saw the sun.. Oh well.......................................

  5. #2495
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    Competant and no cutting torches is precisely why Kennet were paid to do it, those roundels will never see the sun now
    Officially now a pensioner

  6. #2496
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    It was dismantled by the book - as evidenced in Robin Petries postings. Working at night wasn't a choice, it was a necessity, and they had a fairly small window of time they could work in.

  7. #2497
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    1:30 - the original factory Earth/Green and Sky under the wing root fairing. Something researchers have been argueing about for years.

    And later on, clear view of Sky wing undersides overpainted with Azure blue

    This was such a time capsule and important research artefact.
    Last edited by DaveF68; 9th January 2018 at 22:25.

  8. #2498
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    I only now read the RAFM's health and safety requirements for aircraft recovery in Robin Perrie's earlier post. How bl**dy pathetic and out of tune with the real world. Survey the airframe for sharp objects, my goodness.

  9. #2499
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    Kenneth, you clearly aren’t involved in the real world - Little happens in any industry now without what the majority of people consider to be an ott “common sense” H&S risk assessment. I even did a documentary interview in a veterans house last year for tv which had a 6 Page H&S risk assessment requirement. It is sadly life and very real world and the RAFM in this case are fulfilling their legal obligations to the book as should be expected.

  10. #2500
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    The video confirms the parachute adjacent to the airframe, the Very pistol in the cockpit, the seat back distorted at the top, an instrument removed from the panel and we know that some of the pilots harness, parachute or seat, had been cut through...and the canopy, as initially found, was still substantially glazed and jammed shut.

    For me this does not sit well with a claim that the pilot's bones were amazingly located some kilometres from the crash site.

    Mark
    "...the story had been forensically examined and was deeply impressive. I knew that the whole story was a load of myth and baloney…"

  11. #2501
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    Matt Poole in reply to your #2441

    The Plate was not recovered, it remained where it was on the air frame (thus keeping the identity attached to the aircraft). However a request was made for a photo of a plate in a certain position on the aircraft which would confirm the identity, this picture was supplied by way of a video. The data-plate details were cross referenced to Primary source documents which confirmed the identity (since then another video of the aircraft has provided further details confirming the initial identity). This primary source document gave the USAAF serial as well as a fair amount of other data, with further documents cross referenced which gave further information.

    The serial number was confirmed properly against primary source docs not a guess/hunch or even a enhanced photo confirmation. However it was not something that was freely thrown around at the time.

    Buz
    Last edited by H87A-2; 10th January 2018 at 05:16.

  12. #2502
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    DaveF68;

    Good catch on the original colours of the aircraft! You should post the info over on Hyperscale as they've been arguing about that issue years, along with the colours under the rear glazing.

    This really was an important subject for research. Lost for good it would seem.

  13. #2503
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    Kenneth,

    FB is quite right - and they will have a standard policy document that covers such things. What you or I may choose to do in our own time, with our own property is one thing, but any organisation has a responsibility to protect its employees and subcontractors. Its another piece of information that demonstrates the seriousness of the endeavour - it was not, as some have said, just a case of dragging it across the desert, or cutting it up with a gas torch. It was a professional endeavour, done right.

  14. #2504
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    The HSE have no control over activities in a foreign country, nor was it the RAFM recovering the A/C, therefore a mission statement, from them to include checking for fuel when in reality what hadn't been used up in the flight, would have evaporated over the subsequent 70 years, was pointless; were the recovery team really going to give up because all of the criteria given to them (by the RAFM) could not be met?



    Just seen your post Bruce, not a response to that as such!
    Why be your own worse critic, that's what the forum is for.

  15. #2505
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    Its not about the HSE though Stuart - its about an organisation working to its own set of rules, and guaranteeing the safety of its staff and contractors. In any case, they were hardly onerous criteria.

  16. #2506
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    Bruce, the HSE bit was in response to FB's post, the RAFM's piece was essentially a mission statement, but to me a pretty naïve one, given the absolute hostility of the working environment, that said having watched the video excerpts, I think the recovery team did a remarkable job, even more of a shame how (and where) it has ended up.
    Why be your own worse critic, that's what the forum is for.

  17. #2507
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    Buz,

    Thanks for your detailed info on how the P-40 was positively proven to be Copping's ET574. The aircraft's identity was logically known with high probability, especially based upon the faint HS-B paint on the fuselage, but to see the hard video evidence of a data plate, which was then cross referenced with other records, was the proof which eliminated any doubt.

    Because this data plate link was not trumpeted loudly on this forum, that I know of, I can only assume that the general reader deduced that the identity was solid already. Now it is a slam-dunk certainty. There have been other cases where an assumption of identity is all one has to go by, and in such instances a dissatisfying shred of doubt lingers. Well, despite all of the huge negatives in the Copping project, at least the identity of the P-40 has been proven without a doubt.
    Last edited by Matt Poole; 11th January 2018 at 02:52. Reason: Typos, bleedin' typos, and that compulsive need to change Word A to Word B, later to be changed back to Word A.
    RAF LIBERATORS OVER BURMA (subtitled FLYING WITH 159 SQUADRON) by Bill Kirkness DFM and Matt Poole, published by Fonthill Media

  18. #2508
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    MPoole,`quote` was loaded with baleen`!

  19. #2509
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    RAFRochford - will try, my Hyperscale login is a bit flakey these days - I did draw the attention of a couple of known P-40 researchers to this vid

  20. #2510
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    Matt

    No worries, the identification was taken off line for a couple of reasons these being:-

    1. Aircraft sub model - many couldn't tell the subtype of the P-40, which was clouding the identification, so every suggested ID had to be chased and dis-proven (until the Plate shot was taken).

    2. Still lots of discussion if the photos were fake or not

    3. There were approx 35 aircraft unaccounted for, more than 1 of which was either ex 260SQN or serving with 260SQN at time of loss. A couple of suggestions were given on a few forums however everyone seemed to go off half cocked without doing the research.

    4. Once an Id was confirmed there was more pressing issues to worry about that being a keyboard warrior and trumpeting the identification (mind you there was plenty of that going on once the idea of the id was out there). However with all the trumpeting there was no actual proof of how they got the serial number.

    5. The number of abusive PM's I got (along the lines of you're wrong, what would you know, I'm an expert on P-40's because I have three Osprey books etc - one of the reasons I left the board for a long time).


    As much as I don't like the finish of the aircraft now, at least its still in existence. The biggest worry I have is the weakness in the rear fuselage (that fuselage is not straight visually to my eyes), so I hope that it wont cause further damage to something that really needed repairing properly.

    The only disappointing thing is the loss of the original paintwork, which I hope was adequately covered with photos during the recovery. One day hopefully these photos will be made available to the masses. At least the answers to the paintwork questions can be seen on the videos still out there (and the fact it looks like Mediterranean Blue not Azure blue unders)

    Buz
    Last edited by H87A-2; 11th January 2018 at 02:44.

  21. #2511
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    Buz (this time spelled correctly, with one 'z'...I edited my last message's typo),

    Thanks for the further explanation. Sorry message board know-it-all (who don't know it all) blowhards made presenting the truth such a drag for you! Glad you've posted.

    Matt
    Last edited by Matt Poole; 11th January 2018 at 14:39. Reason: AGHHH!! The IRONY!!! Fixing a typo in what I wrote about editing my last message's typo!!
    RAF LIBERATORS OVER BURMA (subtitled FLYING WITH 159 SQUADRON) by Bill Kirkness DFM and Matt Poole, published by Fonthill Media

  22. #2512
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    I find it intriguing that the first strong link to F/Sgt Copping appeared on 24 April 2012 (post #450), six days after the thread's first posting on the Historic Aviation Forum (18 April 2012). RAF Rochford reported that Terry McGrady over on Hyperscale had reported it.

    For the first time in years, I looked back on the first few pages of the thread this morning.

    The beauty of this forum is that people far and wide see a thread and start mulling over it. Consequently, there is often strong evidence presented by someone reacting to the initial data presentation with a unique expert's perspective. One thing builds on another. Beautiful.
    Last edited by Matt Poole; 14th January 2018 at 02:16.
    RAF LIBERATORS OVER BURMA (subtitled FLYING WITH 159 SQUADRON) by Bill Kirkness DFM and Matt Poole, published by Fonthill Media

  23. #2513
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    Sep 2009
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    31
    Hi Matt

    Thanks for the reminder, I'll have to get back into contact with him.

    Buz
    Last edited by H87A-2; 13th February 2018 at 07:44.

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