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Thread: Flt Sgt Copping's P-40 From The Egyptian Desert

  1. #91
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    Theone thing that worries me is the canopy being closed..

    1) The crash looks survivable.. So if you got out why would you close the canopy?? I know I lock my car and ensure windows close when I park teh car at the station.. but I know I am going back in 10 hours..

    2) If the pilot died in the crash, why no bodyin the cockpit?

    3) if you are making a forcelanding don't you open the canopy before attempting to land if you can?

    Paul
    Weather - Fair with cloudy patches, clear by early evening.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulmcmillan View Post
    Theone thing that worries me is the canopy being closed..
    Maybe he just closed it before he walked away for no good reason. Or the wind blew it shut. or someone else did it. There seem to be signs of forced entry on the small hatch (latch is broken open, damage around the hinge), so it´s highly likely that more than one person has been over the wreck on the last 70 years.
    Have YOU used the "Will it be at Legends" joke yet today?

  3. #93
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    If I were a betting man....

    ...... 1,2 and 3 a model diorama. These photos then carefully 'melded' as a set with some real close up shots just to complete the illusion.


    I'd like to think real. But I am thinking smoke and mirrors.
    Editor: 'Britain at War' Magazine

    A 'Key Publishing' product - Britain's Best Selling Military History Monthly

  4. #94
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    P40

    Perhaps photos from the 1970's and long since scrapped.

    model/diarama does not stack up - so many fine details have been pointed out.

    If current, well RAFM/AHB dont seem to know anything unless they are keeping quiet until recovered?

    Would love to think it is current and real. There are photos of an SM-79 that was discovered and was reduced to nothing in a very short time through scrap/salvage.

    Lots of political changes have occurred over the last year in North Africa so you never know what might have appeared.

    Just need a serial

    regards

    Mark

  5. #95
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    [QUOTE=James D;1880728]Or the wind blew it shut. or someone else did it. [QUOTE]

    But that means surely there would be more sand in the cockpit? In the time frame between

    [QUOTE]Just need a serial [QUOTE]

    Or a list of 260 Sqn losses between Feb 1942 and April 1944 to start with
    Weather - Fair with cloudy patches, clear by early evening.

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by DC Page View Post
    Bear in mind that the terrain we see in the photos could be very different from the surface it landed on nearly 70 years ago. It doesn't appear that the engine was under power when it came down, and its nose also is smashed hard up against a rock, which may have been just beneath the sands when this aircraft came to a stop. It might have been a fairly smooth slide along the sand until it caught that rock with its chin. The leading edge of the port wing is banged up but the starboard side looks to be in very good condition.
    Yes, agreed, all of what you say is possible but the propeller and reduction gear are behind the aircraft; I’d have thought any crash able to tear these extremely heavy components from the engine would have, at least, dislodged more of the (relatively) flimsy upper engine cowlings. Anyway I’m not 100% sure or anything like it; maybe 60% / 40% that it is a model.

    I posted late last night and now having quickly read all the preceding posts it seems I’m not the only one who has noticed the condition of the cowlings. That proves nothing of course!

    If it is a hoax it is an extremely good one but I suppose my suspicion is also aroused by it appearing on a modelling forum in the first place.
    WA$.

  7. #97
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    Speaking as a photographer, I do find the the photos convincing. One thing that usually gives away a model is the depth of field - you can see this in the shot of that fantastic Lancaster model set against a moody sky and airfield back ground. The whole aircraft is in focus - both the main wheels are sharply defined, for example. In contrast the p40 head on shot has the foreground focused while the fin is not. It's not conclusive as very careful post production can fake most things, but if it's not real it's certainly the most convincing fake I've ever seen. Noted the comments on cowling damage but the "exit route" could have been under the belly and the lower cowlings are hidden.

    Whatever, it's a fantastic shot.

  8. #98
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    Surely the pilot may have closed the canopy after exciting to keep the sand out with a view to the possibility of the aircraft being recovered a short time later. For all we know he may have stayed with the aircraft to await recovery using the cockpit for shelter and protection at night and therefore kept it closed during the day so as not to have to sit in a sandy environment the following night. Upon the day of rescue (or abandoning hope and walking) the canopy would have been shut in the morning. Also could the prop and reduction gear not just have been sheered off by the motion of the prop and ripped of and flipped over the aircraft?

    It looks pretty real to me too. In the last picture the terrain just viseable through the glazing seems to match. My uncle has been a high level consultant with Exxon for about 30 years and has seen some astonishing relics in north africa, sadly most were just driven or flown past and very very remote but there is still stuff like this out there. You'd probably die before finding it though.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulmcmillan View Post

    But that means surely there would be more sand in the cockpit? In the time frame between
    Sand gets everywhere (my Dad was in the desert) and if it can blow in, it can also blow out. There could be a foot of sand in the thing, but it´s not visible in the pic.
    Have YOU used the "Will it be at Legends" joke yet today?

  10. #100
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    Got to be real, someone's nicked the clock.

    Always the first thing to go..
    "The Auster should be recognised for what it is: a gentleman's aerial touring carriage and a nice aeroplane"

  11. #101
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    Originally Posted by Air Ministry:

    I'm struck by what appear to be footprints in the other photo (circled)

    Hi
    But surely they could just have been in a background photo used as the backdrop for the p-40 photo.
    Yes, you're quite right to point that out, but I was responding to the suggestion that the whole picture is a model diarama, not a photoshopped montage of real scenery and superimposed model.

    Regarding the lack of cowling damage, yes, it looks odd. However, what if the aeroplane was slowing, spinning and maybe even sliding backwards at the moment when seperation occurred, maybe that explains why they are intact? In the case of the P40 sliding backwards and slewing around while coming to a halt, the bent propellor blades now become an anchor, digging into the sand, and this is maybe what helped cause the final seperation?

    Look at the photo of the Beaufighter on the beach in this thread:

    http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/sho...d.php?t=116162

    If I'm interpreting that photo correctly, the tail has seperated from the fuselage and they are now in the wrong correlation, i.e. the fuselage is pointing nose on at the tail. In fact it looks to me as though the very front section, the cockpit, has also seperated and is lying almost up against the tail.

    For the prop assembly to be behind the seemingly otherwise undamaged nose of the P40 doesn't seem so odd after all?

    I also accept that it must have alighted on sand, not the rocky surface seen in the pics otherwise it would have been torn to shreds.

    I hope the pics are genuine but I cling to the notion that, even so, they are much older than we think.

    Still, it's kept us all entertained for a few hours hasn't it? I'd only be pissed off to discover they are fake if I'd been pursuaded to invest money in a recovery expedition, and I'm not likely to do that!
    The garage that keeps on giving.

  12. #102
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    I really want to believe that this is not fake. There are some amazing modellers out there,look no further than our own forum.
    http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=105300

    and another one of his

    http://www.p40warhawk.com/smf/index....970&topic=17.0

    Like the rest of us I await further developments!
    I have kleptomania,But when it gets bad
    I take something for it.

  13. #103
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    Having had a think on this:

    1/ I believe it is not a physical model, when working with materials to represent something on a larger scale they don't look or behave the same. Having looked at the links on other postings they are obviously models.

    2/ the lighting which if you have visited Africa you will know that the differences of an African sun which is surreal is correct.

    3/ The environment that it is sitting on as has been pointed out is not the same as 70 years ago

    So this leaves the option is it a Photoshopped creation, as has been pointed out the level of informed detail is staggering. The technical knowledge of the 'alleged' modeller is brilliant. So you are looking for either a very well informed digital artist with a lot of time on his hands or it's real.

    I work in digital imaging and I know that you can achieve amazing results. But then you have to ask yourself why, so I'm putting my foot into the real camp. Whether it's a current picture I don't know.
    Pedantic I haven't been that for 4 minutes 36 secs
    http://www.arc-design-it.co.uk

  14. #104
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    Well, if I was the RAF Museum, and someone had brought it to me, I would be keeping it quiet too, especially if there were any chance at all of recovering it.

    I am very much in the 'real' camp, with the caveat that they could be old (20 yrs+) pictures that are only now coming to light.

    With the very greatest of respect to the modellers; as good as those models are - and they far, far , far outclass my own skills, they still look like models.

    Pictures 4 + 5 both look real; very much so.



    Bruce

  15. #105
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    P40E

    Love this discussion.

    P40's seem to have a tendency to turn during force landing, whether from small surface area (undercarriage pods and torque) I don't know. There are photos of P40's that have turned during crash landings as well as ones that have lost propellers and reduction gear. Not too worried on damage/location and lack of to engine cowlings.

    The radiator / cowl is well mangled as you would expect.

    As airframes were continually being recovered/recycled in north Africa the pilot would close the cockpit to reduce the amount of sand being blown in. No problem with this being closed.

    Photos 4/5 must be real though whether current is the main question.

    Must be a photo of someone standing by the P40. Thats what I would do and would show the fashion style/age of photo.

    If close to civilisation it would have been found long ago. If not, then must be a lost pilot and cannot believe he would have survived unless picked up by LRDG.

    Need more, driving me mad!

    Mark

  16. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Petroni View Post
    Got to be real, someone's nicked the clock.

    Always the first thing to go..


    Incidentally photo knicked from ebay as an example: Gunsight, Clock and compass removed as happened when an aircraft force-landed and the Pilot survived with his wits intact.

  17. #107
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    The rear fuselage shot would be technically very difficult to model. It would be easier to produce that section as a 100% scale piece of replica airframe
    and then damage it. That would take a lot of skill but isnt impossible.

    The time it would take to do all that would far outweigh the benefits and anyone who had the skill to do that wouldnt be working on a 'hoax' they would be earning good money doing sheet metal on flyers.

  18. #108
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    From Britmodellers thread this link

    http://www.network54.com/Forum/14967...ittyhawk+owner

    That thread is worth reading as well

    http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/i...234916834&st=0

    HTH but I am sure it will only muddy the water!
    I have kleptomania,But when it gets bad
    I take something for it.

  19. #109
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    There's a piece of it on eBay!

    Listed as Stuka but almost certainly the ripped off radiator gills. :diablo:
    http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1906688781...#ht_500wt_1202

  20. #110
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    P40E / Kittyhawk IA

    Additiinal discussion points.

    Looks like the airframe is from 260 SAAF. You can see the HS code to the left of the fuselage roundal. Codes were small which fits. Trying to 'see' if there is the remains of an individual letter on the right. There is a vertical bar but not sure this is just a filler line? Otherwise ID letter could be B, D, E, F, H, K, M, N etc - a few options.

    260Sqn took over Kittyhawks in Feb 1942 and moved to Theatre.

    Least it is one squadron to look at!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cr...frica_1942.jpg

    regards

    Mark

  21. #111
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    Mark typo is

    260 Sqn RAF

    If anyone can ID the Type of Kittyhawk - we can get a better idea of dates

    260 Sqn had

    Kittyhawk I, II Feb 1942 to May 1943
    Kittyhawk III Dec 1942 to April 1944


    Paul
    Weather - Fair with cloudy patches, clear by early evening.

  22. #112
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    Faked....motive not known. Skill levels are very high for CGI.

    If it was real we would only hear about it after the recovery was in progress or already done. A model maker in Poland would be very aware of how much money this P40 could be worth and with a few hours web surfing contact a variety of potential buyers. When you read the saga of recovering the Hurricane from India you realise just how careful a buyer has to be. Its a minefield out there.

  23. #113
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    P40E

    Paul

    Posted more on WIX

    including

    http://www.smashwords.com/books/down...hawk-pilot.txt

    Yep, 260Sqn RAF. Lists bases and missing pilots!

    As it has the older style yellow roundal, would say Kittyhawk IA. The Kittyhawk III photos show the later roundal style.

    regards

    Mark

  24. #114
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    Thanks Mark

    Buz Busby's (probably the worlds authority on the history of the P-40) comments on WIX are very interesting

    Paul
    Weather - Fair with cloudy patches, clear by early evening.

  25. #115
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    Is there anyone on here who has connections within the RAF, to see if they
    have actually been asked to ID the aircraft ?

    Which department would be involved ?

  26. #116
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    Libya or Egypt?

    I have a map reference from 20 or more years back in Egypt of a 'Spitfire' found by an Oil survey team. I had forgotten about that.

    They passed the details to the RAF Museum, who were not interested, who in turn passed them on to me.

    It is still extremely dangerous to swan around areas of Libya and Egypt because of the the uncharted minefields which they are still arguing who is going to pay for the removal.

    I bought this up when the Spitfire surfaced at the El Alamein museum but was advised to be very cautious. An 'adventure' outfit said it would take a three day round trip from Cairo to get me there and back with a minimum of two vehicles and I declined on the basis of cost and the probability of it being buried.

    I wonder if this could be the same aircraft.

    There was nothing visible on Google Earth.

    Mark
    "...the story had been forensically examined and was deeply impressive. I knew that the whole story was a load of myth and baloney…"

  27. #117
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    P40E

    Of course to the lay person, everything with a roundal is a Spitfire!

    20 years ago, if the photos had said 1982 or 92 I would believe it more.

    If one and the same and 20 years ago I would gues now long gone

    Mark

  28. #118
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    260 Sqn "Kittyhawk I' bases

    Source Air Briatin Squadrons of the RAF

    Does not tell us much/if anything! Liby/ Egypt? but does indicate the fluidity of the war in the Desert, 33 bases in 16 Months!

    Benina 16 Jan 1942
    LG 101 1 Feb 1942
    LG 115 15 Feb 1942
    Gasr el Arid 10 Mar 1942
    Gambut 2 23 May 1942
    Bir el Baheira 6 Jun 1942
    LG 76 18 Jun 1942
    LG 115 & LG 85 19 Jun 1942
    LG 97 11 Jul 1942
    LG 75 6 Nov 1942
    Sidi Azeiz 10 Nov 1942
    Gambut Main 12 Nov 1942
    Gazala 15 Nov 1942
    Martuba 4 17 Nov 1942
    Belandah 10 Dec 1942
    Marble Arch 19 Dec 1942
    Gzina 21 Dec 1942
    Hamralet 1 1 Jan 1943
    Hamralet 3 4 Jan 1943
    Bir Dufan 12 Jan 1943
    Sedada 17 Jan 1943
    Bir Dufan 19 Jan 1943
    Castel Benito 23 Jan 1943
    Sorman 7 Feb 1943
    El Assa 14 Feb 1943
    Ben Gardane 2 Mar 1943
    Nefatia 8 Mar 1943
    Medenine Main 20 Mar 1943
    El Hamma 4 Apr 1943
    El Djern 13 Apr 1943
    Kairouan 18 Apr 1943
    Zuara 19 May 1943
    Weather - Fair with cloudy patches, clear by early evening.

  29. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by shepsair View Post
    Of course to the lay person, everything with a roundal is a Spitfire!

    20 years ago, if the photos had said 1982 or 92 I would believe it more.

    If one and the same and 20 years ago I would gues now long gone

    Mark
    Ok can anyone tell if those photos were taken using film or digital ??
    Weather - Fair with cloudy patches, clear by early evening.

  30. #120
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    Here's a model desert for comparison:

    http://www.bookmice.net/darkchilde/thunder/ep5/4.jpg

    http://www.bookmice.net/darkchilde/thunder/ep5/17.jpg

    Personally I don't see much difference!

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