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Thread: Are We Slowly Slipping Into World War?

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehunt View Post
    Firstly my comment was made a long time before the reports you refer to and secondly reports of Russian soldiers in isolated parts of pro- Russian Ukraine are hardly an invasion but are certainly evidence of Putin putting the frighteners on Ukraine.
    Your post was a day before mine; you don't think the Russians were in country then?

  2. #92
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    I agree that it's unlikely this will escalate into all out war. But, I'm sure the same was said by many 100 years ago...

  3. #93
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    J-j - I think comparing then and now is bit like comparing then and the Napoleonic wars. What probably is most relevant is the historical position of Crimea over the past 150 years.

  4. #94
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    Will this crisis translate into increased military spending in Europe and the US? My guess is no.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by snafu View Post
    Your post was a day before mine; you don't think the Russians were in country then?
    We don't know because there are a few thousand Russian personnel based in Crimea by mutual agreement anyway.

  6. #96
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    I'm getting prepared. I've just taken my Raglan to the dry cleaners.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehunt View Post
    We don't know because there are a few thousand Russian personnel based in Crimea by mutual agreement anyway.
    So they were the ones 'guarding' places in combat gear with no badges, etc?

  8. #98
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    I have no idea because my original post preceded that information. All those exchanges have been superceed by events so irrelevant now.

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    As I said earlier these Russians are Spetsnaz as they do not wear insignia. Not the sort of people to argue with. The Navy also has their own Spetsnaz and my wear some sort of emblem(probably spurious) As they seem to have bottled up the Ukrainian armed forces without a fight I think they realise they are not dealing with poorly trained conscripts here. Time will tell I suppose.
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  10. #100
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    Hope he doesn't want Poland to be closer......

  11. #101
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    And the Brazen Hypocrite Liar of the Month Irony Award goes to......


    "You just don't in the 21st century behave in 19th century fashion by invading another country on completely trumped up pre-text," Kerry told the CBS program "Face the Nation."
    John Kerry.

  12. #102
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    I agree wilhelm. IMO the US's whole reaction to the situation has been comical.

  13. #103
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    Spineless would be a better word, as with ours.... Why sign agreements if you don't intend to stick to them.

  14. #104
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    Whilst holding Putin in total contempt I think that the failure of those both inside and outside to put Ukraine in its complex historical context has not helped the situation. I wonder how NATO would have reacted if it had a large military presence in an autonomous region of a state in uncertain political turmoil. The actions of the pro-Western revolutionaries in Kiev were bound to excite reaction from Russia.

  15. #105
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    Can someone explain why we care so much about the Ukraine (Wasn't there a treaty, and then of course oil) ?
    Isn't this just Russia sorting out it's own internal affairs?

  16. #106
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    It's part of the EU's expansionist agenda!!

    And of course because Europe and the UK in particular has cocked up its energy policy in hock to AGW, we need Russian gas, which flows through Ukraine.
    Last edited by charliehunt; 3rd March 2014 at 08:53.

  17. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehunt View Post
    It's part of the EU's expansionist agenda!!

    And of course because Europe and the UK in particular has cocked up its energy policy in hock to AGW, we need Russian gas, which flows through Ukraine.
    Indeed.

    A brief look at a map such as this, and you can understand Russia's fears completely.

    Then, add David Camerons recent, injudicious remarks.....

    David Cameron has said the EU should extend its membership deeper into the former Soviet Union, calling for its borders to run from the Atlantic to the Urals.
    The prime minister made clear that he hoped the enlargement of the EU would go further and extend beyond the three Baltic states of Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia.
    "Britain has always supported the widening of the EU. Our vision of the EU is that it should be a large trading and co-operating organisation that effectively stretches, as it were, from the Atlantic to the Urals. We have a wide vision of Europe and we have always encouraged countries that want to join."
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...-david-cameron

    Just, for a moment, think about that. To the Urals. But not beyond, apparently.

    Last edited by wilhelm; 3rd March 2014 at 10:55.

  18. #108
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    True to form, it is the fault of the EU and AGW. Clearly some great minds at work here. I'm disappointed that the BBC weren't mentioned as well.....

    Sadly for peace this is not an easy issue to solve. It has been brewing for many decades.
    A democratic government in Ukraine, albeit an unpopular one, is overthrown by mob rule and we are supporting that new regime.(?) The Russians move in to protect their interests in the face of uncertainty and they are the bad ones? I agree that a military operation was uncalled for but I understand why they did it. It would appear to be a reasonably popular move among the population of the Crimea.
    Those demanding a stronger reaction by the West; I would ask one question, would you support military action in support of Ukraine knowing where that is likely to lead?
    A few more days of a run on the rouble and the Russians will realize that financially this is going to hurt - a lot. Sadly it will be ordinary people that will suffer, not those that deserve it.

    At the moment the West should sit back, calm down and reflect on those treaties it signed to protect Ukraine in return for it giving up its nuclear weapons. It should then offer to mediate between Russia and Ukraine and get it sorted without any more bloodshed.

  19. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilhelm View Post
    Indeed.

    A brief look at a map such as this, and you can understand Russia's fears completely.

    Then, add David Camerons recent, injudicious remarks.....
    Quite so, Wilhelm. The EU needs to temper its aspirations and we need a third disinterested party, acceptable to all sides, to intervene between Russia, Ukraine and the EU, and try to resolve the crisis.
    Charlie

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  20. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by hampden98 View Post
    Can someone explain why we care so much about the Ukraine (Wasn't there a treaty, and then of course oil) ?
    Isn't this just Russia sorting out it's own internal affairs?
    I'd have liked to have said because we have a care about the wellbeing of our fellow downtrodden man, under threat from one of those big bully nations who just can't stand the thought that things carry on in nation states without consultation with their neighbours, but on here that's not very popular (meh) so lets just mumble something about caring because it pi-cheeses Putin off, it will increase the immigration from that area to Britain, and it allows us to flex our muscles and show off our toys (not that they haven't had a lot of showing off in Afghanistan and Iraq in the last 10 years or more).

    And how about comparing the Ukraine problem with Scotland in a few years time, if an independent Scotland took it upon itself to make noises about not doing business with the rest of Britain but jump into bed with China, so we sent the tanks in and ignored the rest of the worlds opinion because it was just one of our internal affair problems that we were sorting out? Or something.

  21. #111
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    Snafu - that last point is of course very apposite because the United Kingdom has a significant military resource in Scotland. Although Faslane is not a semi-autonomous enclave you could, if you so wished, make an analogy with Crimea. Mind you the that is just one of the lengthening list of problems to resolve if and when the Scots vote yes. It will be a veeeeeeery long road!! ( see another thread!!)
    Charlie

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  22. #112
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    Hmm, must be why I chose it...

    But would it be an internal affair we would be sorting out by that point?

  23. #113
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    You'd better check that Mr Salmond has put it on his list of "things I mustn't forget to sort out after the vote"!

  24. #114
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    He probably has other internal affairs to sort out in the short term - if the referendum goes his way, of course.

  25. #115
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    Oh he has!! Dozens of them!

  26. #116
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    Hi All,
    I can't seeing it going that far unless Putin decides he will do a Georgia,Hungary or Czechoslovakia take over, the problem for the Ukraine is that there are no resources that the west will benefit from. Putin now sees the west as a toothless threat, we will stand by and watch as he does what he wants simply in my opinion because we need their gas, like was feared a few years ago the Russians will hold the gas pipelines as ransom if we go against their actions.
    On the one hand their is big business in Russia that could persuade him to not be as bolshie and take a softer line as they say money makes the world go round and if those who control the Russian economy will suffer they may even get him out of power, on the other hand Putin being ex-KGB and would like a return to the old days of the Soviet empire with all the former states in tow this may be exactly what he is after and this is just the start of a series of territorial grabs.
    What he has to consider is what the rest of the world will think and how it will affect his country in the outcome of any military action he may decide to take of coarse there is always the possibility that like the new Ukrainian naval admiral defected/resigned other in similar posts throughout the Ukraine may do the same this is a problem that could thwart any real attempt at a retaliation should the Russians use force.
    Judging by the looks of the trapped Ukrainian forces they have older kit than the troops who appeared so suddenly in the Ukraine unless these are just the better equipped units of the Russian forces ?

    Geoff.

  27. #117
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    WHOOO ,Lets all arm up and go to war,
    Our forces are still giving those naughty people in Afghanistan a good kicking--- not,,,,,, still keeping an eye on Syria,Libya,Iraq .I guess Putin realises we are really not going to do anything.

  28. #118
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    Anyone notice he waited until after the main winter Olympics?

    Which gets me thinking...

  29. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1batfastard View Post
    .................... Putin now sees the west as a toothless threat, we will stand by and watch as he does what he wants simply in my opinion because we need their gas, like was feared a few years ago the Russians will hold the gas pipelines as ransom if we go against their actions............

    Geoff.
    Which sums it up quite nicely. Putin will do whatever he wants to.
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  30. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derekf View Post

    ...

    At the moment the West should sit back, calm down and reflect on those treaties it signed to protect Ukraine in return for it giving up its nuclear weapons. It should then offer to mediate between Russia and Ukraine and get it sorted without any more bloodshed.
    Yes ... but ... Ukraine is an independent country and its sovereignty should be respected just as much as ours is. Having said that Russia does have an obvious interest in Crimea because of the Black Sea Fleet, but, behaving as the though the Cold War hadn't ever ended isn't an appropriate way to express that interest; Putin's current actions are wrong.

    There have been some posts here which are advocating that NATO should go to war over this matter. Absolutely not. The matter should be dealt with by diplomatic and economic means and Europe should lose is dependence on Russian gas and oil ASAP. Only then will it be able to act properly over matters such as these.

    The dismantling of empires has always been messy and the saga of the end of the USSR has a long way to go yet.

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