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Thread: Tejas Mk1 and Mk2 thread

  1. #2041
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    @BlackArcher:
    Obviously the nbr are good. But someone wanting to make a rational comparison would need something to look at. Sorties number and flight hours is something that have to be looked at in parallel.
    Making 4 sorties lasting only 15 minutes and one of 2 hours doesn't expose your airframe to the same stress or maintenance rate.

  2. #2042
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    It's high time to start Tejas MK2 and AMCA with total involvement of Dassault from design to final product. Just for the sake of indigenous fighter one can't trade with capability. The know-how till date can be implemented in Tejas MK2 and AMCA.
    It is part of DA proposal.

    Making 4 sorties lasting only 15 minutes and one of 2 hours doesn't expose your airframe to the same stress or maintenance rate.
    Still, 4 sorties of 15 mins is better than 3 (which would more be a 70ies or very very rich air force standard)

  3. #2043
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    the total prototype fleet has put another ~3600+ hours.
    The total no of test sorties till 18th Nov is 3685. Ada and NFTC are moving at warp speed as far as flight testing is concerned. 375 test sorties completed so far this year. This is the 2nd highest no of sorties/per year.

    The prototype, LSP fleet has completed anywhere between 2000-2500 hours. 3600 hours is a bit too much. That would imply that each test sortie lasted for an hour which isn't the case.

  4. #2044
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    Actually, 4 sorties lasting 15 minutes each will impose more stress on the airframe and landing gear than 1 sortie lasting 2 hours. Landing gears are especially prone to stresses during take off and landing and are rated for the number of landings before maintenance.

  5. #2045
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    Not suited for air to ground ops? Guess how many bombs most Jaguars carry when they're on strike sorties? And guess what test pilots have to say about how a Jaguar handles when it is loaded with bombs and fuel amounting to just about 4000 kgs when taking off from an airport such as Bangalore on a summer day. And this is a dedicated strike aircraft that can barely defend itself.



    4*1000 lbs bombs = 2000 kgs
    2*1000 kg drop tanks = 2000 kgs

    Total payload is 4000 kgs with internal fuel in that configuration. And with that, the Jaguar can barely get off the ground. A dedicated strike aircraft that is a class larger than the Tejas and it can just about carry 4000 kgs of payload realistically.

    The Tejas can carry 4*1000 lbs bombs on its inboard pylons but without the mid-board pylons being wet it couldn't carry drop tanks in that configuration. So, they're now undergoing trials to certify the mid-board pylons for drop tanks as well. That work is in progress and should allow the Tejas to be able to pretty much do what a Jaguar can do while being able to defend itself far better, with 2 Python-5s on the outboard pylons.

    Not to mention how much more it can do in the air to ground strike role versus the airplane it was designed to replace- the MiG-21.
    Last edited by BlackArcher; 21st November 2017 at 20:26.

  6. #2046
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    Jaguar isn't 'a class larger than Tejas'. It has a very similar empty weight, less thrust, less wing area . . . . They're absolutely bang on in the same class as far as weights & load carrying go.

    Jaguar's optimised for low-level performance (designed for an environment where flying high was suicidal for strike aircraft) & was intended as a lower-tier supplement to high-end fighters & fighter-bombers, & therefore it had to be cheap. It was absolutely fine for bombing advancing Warsaw Pact armies, but in Indian service it's gained weight, & could do with more thrust for hot and/or high take-offs. Unfortunately, the IAF plans for increased thrust have suffered many delays.

    I'm not convinced that choosing to integrate a new engine, rather than upgrade the existing ones, was the right choice. More cost, & it's taking forever. I wonder if the IAF's Jaguars will ever get those engines.
    Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
    Justinian

  7. #2047
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    Similar empty weight and MTOW? The Jaguar is more in the category/weight class of the proposed Tejas Mk2 with 7000 kg empty weight and 15,7000 kg MTOW. The Tejas Mk1 weighs 6500 kgs empty and its MTOW is 13500 kgs. A difference of 2200 kgs for MTOW.

  8. #2048
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    The generational gap

    *decrease in structural weight
    Last edited by TomcatViP; 23rd November 2017 at 16:15.

  9. #2049
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    Similar empty weight and MTOW? The Jaguar is more in the category/weight class of the proposed Tejas Mk2 with 7000 kg empty weight and 15,7000 kg MTOW. The Tejas Mk1 weighs 6500 kgs empty and its MTOW is 13500 kgs. A difference of 2200 kgs for MTOW
    You're saying that puts them in a different class? That'd mean that every IAF fighter is in a different class, different F-16 models are in four or five different classes, & so on.

    The Tejas & Jaguar numbers are similar. They're not identical. In weight terms, they're in the same class.

    BTW, are there still Jaguars with Adour 804s? HAL says it's been making the more powerful Adour 811 since 1981.
    Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
    Justinian

  10. #2050
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    Yes, the Jaguar is more in the category of a Gripen E/Tejas Mk2 in terms of its empty weight and its MTOW. Obviously it's max payload and range should be commensurate with that increased fuel capacity that goes with the higher OEW and higher MTOW.

    The Tejas Mk2 that was being proposed is in a very similar weight category and for that, its payload figures would be slightly better whereas range figures cannot exactly be predicted since they were designed for very different roles.

    That article was written for Vayu Aerospace, most likely by retd. Air Marshal Philip Rajkumar, who graduated as a Test Pilot from ETPS and his experience probably relates to the earlier BAe supplied NAVWASS Jaguars in IAF service.

    Engine: HAL-built Jaguars are powered with the RT172-58 Adour Mk.811 turbofans, each rated at 8400 lbs. of maximum thrust. BAe-built Jaguars were initially powered with two Adour 804E turbofans.
    link

  11. #2051
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    Tejas Mk1 (LSP-7) with 4 X 1000 lb dumb bombs and 1 centerline 725 ltr drop tank



    LSP-7 (KH-2017) taxying out with four 1000lbs live bombs and the centreline drop tank for a test sortie..
    pic credit- Tejas LCA FB page

  12. #2052
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    @BlackArcher. I was about to post this pic. You beat me to it.

    The payload is considerable.
    4 1000lb dumb bomb + 725 ltr drop tank + Litening 2

    1814 kgs+ 725*0.86kgs+200 kgs =2637.5 kgs excluding the droptank, pylon and those camera pod weights.

    Two CCM can be carried in place of those camera attachments.
    The page admin has said that a 1000 lb bomb has been tested on the centreline station in lieu of the drop tank.

    6 1000 pounders along with 725 ltr droptank and 2 R-73E would be super awesome. A self protection jammer pod like the ELL-8222 can be carried in place of the Ldp or a R-73E.
    Last edited by Arihant; 28th November 2017 at 09:53.

  13. #2053
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  14. #2054
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    Dr Ng Eng Hen, the defense minister today had a sortie on the Tejas at Kalaikunda AFS.

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    A Hawk AJT flew alongside the Tejas. It was a Tejas trainer.

  15. #2055
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    Dr Ng Hen flew on the PV-6. Being a defense minister has its perks.

    Is it possible that Singapore is interested in the Tejas? The LCA is perfect for a nation like Singapore. The Tejas can be to Singapore as the Hurricane/Spitfire was to Britain. Both have short legs.

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  16. #2056
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    Is it possible that Singapore is interested in the Tejas?
    The RSAF operates highly evolved versions of the Eagle and Viper and in numbers. I dont see the RSAF replacing Vipers and Eagles by Tejas, and i dont see Singapore introducing a third Fighter aircraft in its ORBAT, it already fields a (very) sizable Air Force for such a small Country.

  17. #2057
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    Even if the possibility of Singapore being interested in a Tejas trainer or fighter variant is slim, the very fact that their Defence Minister flew on a Tejas is a big deal, especially coming in the backdrop of a concerted media campaign to malign the Tejas, due to senior GoI officials questioning the need for a separate imported Single Engine Fighter program. It expresses a much deeper faith in the program, its safety and its relevance to the IAF. He could've easily been flown on a Su-30MKI or Mirage-2000TI trainer. You don't fly the Defence Minister of a strategic partner nation in a fighter jet that you aren't confident about.

  18. #2058
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    Potus is flown on SH-3. Would that say too that the venerable Seaking is the most reliable platform available in the US ?
    Last edited by TomcatViP; 28th November 2017 at 19:43.

  19. #2059
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    Dr Ng Eng Hen's tweets

    Privileged to be flown on the #Tejas, India's own designed and manufactured fighter aircraft. A very good plane. #fighteraircraft @IAF_MCC
    I placed my life in the hands of Air Vice Marshall A.P. Singh as we flew 20,000ft above the #Kalaikunda skies in the @IAF_MCC’s new Tejas #fighterplane. @TheRSAF pilots say he is among the best. The plane ride was so smooth despite the G-turns & manoeuvres - even took #selfies!




    Twitter link
    Last edited by BlackArcher; 28th November 2017 at 20:03.

  20. #2060
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    Well, if you're introducing a new type into service and you fly the Defence Minister of another nation that you consider strategically important, you definitely are quite confident in its abilities. I'm not saying that his tweets praising the jet are validation of its capabilities, but the very fact that this was the Def Min of another nation who was flown on board says a lot.

  21. #2061
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    Singaporean Defence Minister hails the Tejas as 'excellent'

    Singaporean Defence Minister hails Tejas fighter jet as excellent

    KALAIKUNDA (WB): Singapore Defence Minister Ng Eng Hen today hailed India's indigenously-built multi-role light combat aircraft Tejas as "very very capable".

    As the first civilian foreigner to fly on Tejas, Ng took a half-an-hour flight in the two-seater plane piloted by Air Vice Marshal A P Singh at the Kalaikunda airbase here.

    "It is a very very capable plane," Ng told reporters here after flying on Tejas.

    Hailing Tejas as "very impressive", Ng said, Ng said, "This is the reason why our air force trains with your air force. Pilots are superb, planes are pretty good."

    Praising Air Vice Marshal Singh as a "superbly confident and supremely professional" pilot, Ng said he felt as if he was riding a car and not flying in a fighter aircraft.

    "In fact the plane ride was so smooth that despite the G-turns and manoeuvres, I managed to even take some selfies," Ng said.

    Singh, who flew Tejas, is the project director of the National Flight Test Centre -- Aeronautical Development Agency.

    Asked whether Singapore is interested in buying the Tejas fighter aircraft, the minister said he was not a pilot and it was up to the technical people to take a call on it.

    Indian defence sources, however, said Singapore has evinced interest in Tejas.

    During the Bahrain air show where Tejas aircraft was showcased, some Middle Eastern countries had also shown interest, the defence sources said.

    Two Tejas aircraft were flown in here from Bangalore so that the Singapore defence minister can have a look at the aircraft.
    ..

    The Singapore defence minister is scheduled to meet his Indian counterpart Nirmala Sitharaman in Delhi tomorrow.
    Last edited by BlackArcher; 28th November 2017 at 23:41.

  22. #2062
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    ADA responds to the reports on the IAF being unhappy with the Tejas

    IAF not unhappy with Tejas- ADA scientists

    KOLKATA: Senior scientists of Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) on Tuesday said IAF isn't unhappy with the performance of Tejas but wants more variety. There were reports a few days ago of IAF brass pushing for imports rather than settling for advanced versions of Tejas.

    "The Tejas is a light aircraft that has limitations of carrying capacity and endurance. But it has achieved its role as the best aircraft in its class. It has also successfully fired the latest beyond visual range (BVR) missiles. The IAF wants more variety. All the aircraft in its inventory can't be light. The IAF requires all kinds and that doesn't mean it isn't satisfied with the performance of Tejas," said ADA director Girish S Deodhare.


    "The Tejas is a state-of-the-art platform while F-16s are of 1970 vintage. Several countries in West Asia have also expressed interest in in Tejas," another senior official said.

  23. #2063
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    "Senior scientists of Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) on Tuesday said IAF isn't unhappy with the performance of Tejas but wants more variety."

    More variety? What does that mean - we want a squadron of Gripen, another of F-16, another of FA-50 and a few more other types? Nonsense to me. If Tejas does the business (which IAF should know by now), it does the business. If not, it doesn't. Can any informed person explain to me why ADA says that IAF wants "variety"?
    Sum ergo cogito

  24. #2064
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    Pay attention to what's written. It is clearly explained: variety is for a range of capabilities (heavier airframe).

  25. #2065
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    Very interesting video made by a BRF member. It shows a superimposed flight display comparison of a Tejas Mk1 with a Gripen C.


  26. #2066
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    Some pics from Kalaikunda AFB.

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    R-73E CCM, Griffin-3 LGB, Derby bvraam and 500 kg dumb bombs are on display here.
    Last edited by Arihant; 7th December 2017 at 15:53.

  27. #2067
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    In flight refueling trials progressing towards first contact with drogue in early 2018.

    Anantha Krishnan M
    ✈‏ @writetake
    2h2 hours ago

    #TejasUpdate #1
    [b]
    As a run-up to the FOC in 2018, #Tejas LSP-8 is optimising flight profiles with the in-flight refueling probe (IFR). Air-to-air refueling trials will begin early 2018. First dry contact followed by wet trials. So far, LSP-8 flew 44 sorties with IFR.



  28. #2068
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    There are specific rules indina engineeers may be unfamiliar wiht for refuellinG. Software for flight rules increment was purely local. ?

  29. #2069
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    TejasUpdate #2
    4 #Tejas variants undertook night attack missions for the FIRST TIME. Challenges of night attack were adequacy and acceptability of displays in cockpit for ops. Ops done through instruments. Algorithms fine-tuned. No new weapons tested. (Rep pic only.)
    #DNKT

  30. #2070
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    There are specific rules indina engineeers may be unfamiliar wiht for refuellinG. Software for flight rules increment was purely local. ?
    Sorry I couldn't understand what you meant by that.

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