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Thread: Tejas Mk1 and Mk2 thread

  1. #2371
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    Good luck with 2052

  2. #2372
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    roflmao.. so we had a bunch of people try to justify the Elta radar over Thales, and then immediately after is news that the IAF wants to integrate Meteor.. a missile that is already integrated on the Thales set.

    non-sensical IAF acquisition continues!

  3. #2373
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    roflmao.. so we had a bunch of people try to justify the Elta radar over Thales, and then immediately after is news that the IAF wants to integrate Meteor.. a missile that is already integrated on the Thales set.

    non-sensical IAF acquisition continues!
    Yet another example of the politico-military circus members demonstrating their inability to think/plan/manage their way out of a paper bag?
    Sum ergo cogito

  4. #2374
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    notice that nothing says specifically that it has to be an MBDA Meteor. They mention only the Meteor as a class of missile*. And then Meteor is integrated with Saab aircraft and planned to be on F-35, some very specific airframe where Thales systems plays at least a minor role.

    *it's possible that the leverage to get the contract was to integrate a long range missile on Teja, something that the Israelis agreed to do when Thales hypothetically did not

  5. #2375
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    ^ yes but they are not purchasing the Gripen or F-35. They are purchasing the Tejas.
    the Gripen and F-35 had customers willing to pay for the integration of the Meteor to their radars. None of which are Elta models.

    This means India more or less is opting to pay more money to research its integration. Unless what you say is true, that Elta offered to front the costs of which.

  6. #2376
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    I see more Israelis offering to field a new design developed b/w them.
    Last edited by TomcatViP; 17th May 2018 at 18:14.

  7. #2377
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    ^ yes but they are not purchasing the Gripen or F-35. They are purchasing the Tejas.
    the Gripen and F-35 had customers willing to pay for the integration of the Meteor to their radars. None of which are Elta models.

    This means India more or less is opting to pay more money to research its integration. Unless what you say is true, that Elta offered to front the costs of which.
    Dude, relax. No need to get your panties in a knot.

    There has been no confirmation of any integration or selection of Meteor for the Tejas. There is the I-Derby ER that was being pushed for the 100 km+ range BVRAAM for the Tejas, given that it is fully integrated with the I-Derby already. And then there is Astra BVRAAM integration pending, which should be taken up soon.
    The news mentioned a "Meteor class" BVRAAM. And just so you know, there is an internal program for a Astra Mk2 that is a ramjet propelled BVRAAM.

    Fact of the matter is this- the Elta 2032 is already on the Tejas. The natural choice was ALWAYS the Elta 2052 due to commonality with the existing set and ease of integrating already integrated weapons to this new radar set. Plus, there will be commonality with over 60 sets that will be acquired for the Jaguar Darin 3 upgrade. But for the sake of getting a good look at what the competition is like, and to put some pressure on Elta to give a competitive pricing, the RFP had to be released.

    No one was under the illusion that Thales was the front runner for this deal, except maybe some Western leaning posters on this forum, which means ZILCH in the real world. So you and some other guys can go around pretending to know what's best for the Tejas program but it means nothing. Those involved with the program surely know better about what weapons are to be integrated, how much source code is being offered, what ToT is on the table and so on. You and the others who're calling this a circus don't.

    Or are you and that other know it all smarter than the rest or privy to all the internal specifications and info that the rest of us are not?
    Last edited by BlackArcher; 17th May 2018 at 18:29.

  8. #2378
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    Well said. Then there is Uttam radar which is in development. I think Uttam and Astra MK2 will go in Tejas MK2.

  9. #2379
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    roflmao, looks like the apologists got triggered

    So you and some other guys can go around pretending to know what's best for the Tejas program but it means nothing. Those involved with the program surely know better about what weapons are to be integrated, how much source code is being offered, what ToT is on the table and so on. You and the others who're calling this a circus don't.
    Because the Tejas program has gone by so swimmingly

  10. #2380
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    which is cheaper, the European set radar/missile or Israeli?
    After a certain point, I think the capabilities of either are good enough, and economics and political/strategic factors should be prioritized

  11. #2381
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    well dassualt/airbus and various suppliers like Thales will be more in joint developments. so India cannot ignore French systems otherwise they will have to deal with EU and they can further raise the price of A330MRT.

  12. #2382
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    ^ yes but they are not purchasing the Gripen or F-35. They are purchasing the Tejas.
    the Gripen and F-35 had customers willing to pay for the integration of the Meteor to their radars. None of which are Elta models.

    This means India more or less is opting to pay more money to research its integration. Unless what you say is true, that Elta offered to front the costs of which.
    I fail to understand why people are losing their sleep over the issue of which aesa is chosen for mk1A. It was always a given that Elta was the frontrunner.

    Some time back there was an article by Mr Shukla on the Jaguar DARIN 3 upgrade. In this piece he says that the Israelis are offering a customized variant of EL M-2052 for the Jaguar and that they are willing to integrate the said radar on the Jaguar at their own expense. HAL wouldn't have to pay a dime for the integration. But there was a rider in this deal. HAL must agree to install the elm2052 aesa on their upcoming Tejas Mk1A in exchange for Elta paying for the integration of the said radar on the Jag.
    So, in a way it had been decided quite early that the AESA radar for the Mk1A would be the Elta 2052 when HAL and IAF selected it for the DARIN 3 program.


    Having bagged another major contract, Elta got too greedy and decided to jack up the price of the radar midway through the deal. Another article, this one most probably by Manu Pubby came out after the IAF had agreed to purchase 83 units of the mk1A. It stated that due to the exorbitant price of the Israeli radar being offered for the mk1A, a decision had been made to procure the radar through the open tender route with RFI being sent to many radar and avionics major. Then the RFP was released for the AESA and the ew pod. This RFP was in all probability a subtle way of telling Elta that we have other options for the radar and if you continue to ask for such a hefty amount for the radar and the associated ToT then we would be forced to look elsewhere.


    This charade continued in earnest and Elta was forced to fall in line or risk losing the contract.

    Another major aspect of this deal is the amount of tech transfered and the proposal to set up an assembly line here in India which would be run by BEL. I bet Elta offered a better deal than Thales. The current ELM-2032 on the Tejas is a hybrid radar in that the slotted planar antenna has been developed in conjunction with Drdo and ECIL currently manufactures the antenna. Several back end components are also indigenously designed and manufactured by the likes of HAL and other private players. So when it comes to setting up an assembly line for the AESA radar, Elta already has a head start over its competitor with an well oiled supply chain.

  13. #2383
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    Some significant points here.

    https://m.economictimes.com/news/def...w/64214939.cms

    1.Tejas mk2 is going to be an all new aircraft. It will be designated Medium combat aircraft instead of LCA.Dr Girish Deodhare has himself confirmed this to ET. Mk2 will be to mk1 as Super Hornet is to Hornet.

    2. MTOW will be increased to 17.5 tons. It is being designed to replace the Mirage 2000 in IAF service. Mirage 2000 has a MTOW of 17 tons and Gripen E has a mtow of 16.5 tons. As such the Tejas mk2 will be a heavy hauler with a larger or atleast similar payload to the Gripen E.

    3. According to ADA most of the systems have been finalized and the design will be frozen in a couple of months.


    BENGALURU: India is redesignating the Mark-2 upgrade of the homegrown Tejas aircraft as a medium weight fighter due to its increased weight and weapon carrying capacity. It is also designing the plane to replace the Mirage-2000 fleet of the Indian Air Force.


    Aeronautical Development Agency, the design agency of the indigenous fighter aircraft programme, has finalised the systems and is looking to freeze the design of the medium weight fighter in a couple of months, a top scientist told ET. It is expected to have a maximum take off weight of 17.5 tonnes with an improvement of over 85% in weapons and payload carrying capacity to that of Tejas, light combat aircraft (LCA).

    Tejas, powered by a single GE-404 engine, is a fly-by-wire fighter that has delta wings and no tail. Fly-bywire technology enables a pilot to control the plane electronically through computers. It has a a maximum take off weight of 13.5 tonnes.


    “The LCA was designed to replace the MiG-21aircraft, whereas the Mk-2 is being designed to replace the Mirage 2000,” Dr Girish Deodhar, programme director of ADA told ET. “It is being redesignated as a medium weight fighter.”
    India bought Mirage 2000 planes from Dassault Aviation of France in the 1980s. In 2011, Hindustan Aeronautics signed a pact with Thales and Dassault to upgrade the Mirage-2000 with new avionics, radar and weapons. Dassault has shut its Mirage plant since then.


    The Tejas aircraft, which first flew in January 2001, is short of completing its final operational clearance, even as it has met the initial requirements set by the air force. The IAF has inducted over six Tejas aircraft in its No 45 Squadron called the Flying Daggers that is based in Sulur, near Coimbatore. It has placed order of 40 Tejas with an additional request for information placed with Hindustan Aeronautics for 83 more planes with the GE-404 engines.
    After the initial flights of the LCA, the IAF had expressed concern over the low power thrust of the engine and asked ADA, a unit of Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) for design changes and more powerful engine for the LCA-Mk2. India has finalised the GE-414 engine, a powerplant similar to the one that powers the F-18 aircraft of Boeing.


    The Gas Turbine andResearch Establishment or GTRE, a DRDO unit in Bengaluru, has failed to deliver the indigenous Kaveri engine for the Tejas fighter after nearly two decades of development.

    We can comfortably infer that mk2 will have canards since it is going to be an all new aircraft which will be sharing some systems with the Mk1.

    It will be interesting to see whether the Snecma GTRE combine developes an uprated variant of GTX-35 Kaveri in the wet thrust class of 95-110 kn to power the mk2 and ultimately the Amca.

    Things are going to be really interesting now on.

  14. #2384
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    thanks for a detailed and rational explanation Arihant, unlike single blade.

    thats unfortunate to know the Israelis tried to rip India off.

  15. #2385
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    Because the Tejas program has gone by so swimmingly
    What has the program's issues, most of which are in the past, got to do with the selection of the Israeli set over the Thales set? Go on, enlighten us with your deep insights into the program.

  16. #2386
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    Btw, DRAL is going to produce wings for rafale team. (official)

  17. #2387
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    You mean for all Rafales? Not just those ordered by India?

  18. #2388
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    see above my triggered friend

  19. #2389
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    Tejas Mark 1A faces delay as air force adds to demands

    Indian Air Force (IAF) has demanded additional features and the fighter could be entering a time-consuming development spiral that takes another three to four years.

    Tejas Mark 1A was conceived specifically to bring the Tejas into production. In early 2015, the IAF, defence ministry and Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) agreed it could enter mass production as soon as HAL incorporated five improvements. Namely, an active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, an electronic warfare (EW) suite, a self-protection jammer, mid-air refuelling capability and easier maintainability.

    With this clear map, the ministry sanctioned the building of 83 Tejas Mark 1A fighters last December for an estimated Rs 330 billion.

    Now, however, the IAF has added to that wish list. Among several additional demands are: “smart multi-function displays” for the cockpit, a “combined interrogator and transponder” to differentiate friendly aircraft from foes, a digital map generator and an improved radio altimeter.

  20. #2390
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    Navy MK2 was rumored to have 16.5 MTOW due to additional fuselage weight to sustain Carrier landings but if IAF MK-2 is 17.5 MTOW then Naval Variant of MK-2 will be able to slot in perfectly for their Carrier based fighter requirements but not sure if F414 engines will have enough juice to takeoff with decent load . while for IAF 99kN Engine is good enough since they never complained about SNECMA M53-P2 afterburning turbofan engines on Mirage-2000s .

  21. #2391
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    Its mission creep that has delayed or killed some indiginous program ....if adding these new features not part of original spec freeze for Tejas Mk1A then its better to keep it away in order to avoid delay , They already have too much on their plate for Mk1A and need to perfect that first , case of The best is the enemy of the good.
    "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

  22. #2392
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    I thought the Navy didn't want the Tejas?

    with news that the Mk2 version is becoming the size and weight of the Gripen, adds canards, and the possibility of a naval version..

    I wouldn't be surprised the "Mk2" variant may end up being a license built Gripen

  23. #2393
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    if adding these new features not part of original spec freeze for Tejas Mk1A then its better to keep it away in order to avoid delay , They already have too much on their plate for Mk1A and need to perfect that first , case of The best is the enemy of the good.
    Agreed. Additionally I think the focus of the IAF should not stray from the urgent need to replace aged MiG's. Choosing an enhanced capability that will be unavailable for several years more than the agreed Mk1A capability will reduce IAF capability for several years.
    Sum ergo cogito

  24. #2394
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    You mean for all Rafales? Not just those ordered by India?
    yes.

  25. #2395
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    There is just too much on the platter as is. Get Mk1 going and wait until Rafale enters service before expanding at the top end. They can use the money on MKI upkeep.
    Go Huskers!

  26. #2396
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    The design of LCA Mk2 will be finalized in another month according to Dr S Christopher, the outgoing Chairman of Drdo. It is to be a 17.5 ton mtow class aircraft.

    https://www.theweek.in/theweek/curre...rman-drdo.html

  27. #2397
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    Greater the changes more will be the delays and LCA mk2 is leaning towards it and most certainly it will face delays

    Should be good for IAF though to order more single engine fighter
    "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

  28. #2398
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    Wow... Higy speculative but a Teja MK2 would be right in the weight class of a 2010ished Lavi.

  29. #2399
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    What engine will power the Mk2? It'll have to be something significantly more powerful than the current GE option if the MTOW is 17.5 tonnes, which inevitably means more integration work, more delays etc etc etc.

  30. #2400
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    GE F-414 has already more power than the engine that flew in the Lavi

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