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Thread: Japan Self-Defense Forces - News & Discussion - Season 1

  1. #31
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    How serious are Japan with this ATD concept ? Seems reading this Mitsubishi sites indicated they are getting serious.

    http://www.4-traders.com/MITSUBISHI-...r-Ai-14242208/

    Is this potential F-3 ? or just another technological demonstrator. After all Japan already committed to F-35 right ? Does any of you gents now what they mean the project scheduled for completion in 2017 ? Is this mean a working prototype will be available in 2017 ? Now they only begin to build full scale model in 2012, however the first flight scheduled on 2014. Is it realistic ?

  2. #32
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    http://www.mhi.co.jp/news/story/1203285190.html

    "Advanced technology demonstration aircraft project
    To the production stage
    Actual size structural test specimen"
    Republic of Korea Air Force KF-16 missing photographs

    http://www.f-16.net/aircraft-databas...irforce/ROKAF/

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by ananda View Post
    How serious are Japan with this ATD concept ? Seems reading this Mitsubishi sites indicated they are getting serious.

    http://www.4-traders.com/MITSUBISHI-...r-Ai-14242208/

    Is this potential F-3 ? or just another technological demonstrator. After all Japan already committed to F-35 right ? Does any of you gents now what they mean the project scheduled for completion in 2017 ? Is this mean a working prototype will be available in 2017 ? Now they only begin to build full scale model in 2012, however the first flight scheduled on 2014. Is it realistic ?
    F-35 seems to be a mere stopgap measure until the long term replacement the ATD-X is ready to replace the F-15s and F-2s

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thornado View Post
    are Japanese F-15s upgraded with AESA, either American ones or Japanese ones? anyone know?
    F-15Js are upgrading with AN/APG-63(v)1 now. MOD is considering to modify the AESA radar but there is no actual program and if they do, it will be APG-63(v)3 or (v)4.

  5. #35
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    http://www.asagumo-news.com/news/201.../12040517.html

    A summary of the JASDF aspect of the JMOD budget for fiscal year Heisei 24 (2012).

    WRT jet fighters...

    F-35:
    F-X winner F-35A will replace F-4.
    The budget will acquire four aircraft and one training simulator.
    Target is 42 aircraft.

    F-15:
    Two aircraft will upgrade their central computer, fighter datalink system, and radar.
    Also, HMD interacts with AAM-5 Type 04 AAM.

    One aircraft will upgrade its ECM, RWR, and launching type countermeasure, for better self-protection.

    F-2:
    12 aircraft will upgrade their radar for AAM-4 Type 99 AAM.
    20 aircraft will add JDAM ability.

    WRT transports...

    C-2 will replace C-1.
    Two new aircraft will deploy in Heisei 28 (2016).
    Two aircraft will first deploy at Miho AB in Heisei 26-27.
    Tests continue at Gifu AB.
    Republic of Korea Air Force KF-16 missing photographs

    http://www.f-16.net/aircraft-databas...irforce/ROKAF/

  6. #36
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    http://mainichi.jp/english/english/n...na016000c.html

    Prosecutors search Defense Ministry over suspected bid rigging scandal

    2012/09/05

    The alleged bid rigging involves an order for parts for the new multipurpose helicopter UH-X, a successor to the UH-1J, which would be used by the Ground Self-Defense Force (GSDF) for a variety of missions including the transport of goods and personnel, the sources said.
    Kawasaki Heavy Industries Ltd. announced in March this year that it had received an order for a UH-X helicopter from the Defense Ministry.
    The price of the helicopter is said to be about 1 billion yen per unit.

    http://e.nikkei.com/e/app/fr/gateway...05D05SS198.htm

    Kawasaki Heavy Falls 5% On Helicopter Bid-Rigging Probe

    Wednesday, September 5, 2012

    TOKYO (NQN)--Shares in Kawasaki Heavy Industries Ltd. (7012) fell sharply Wednesday after The Nikkei reported before the bell that Tokyo prosecutors are looking into possible bid-rigging by several helicopter makers on their shipments to the Ground Self-Defense Force.
    Last edited by Don Chan; 6th September 2012 at 11:52.
    Republic of Korea Air Force KF-16 missing photographs

    http://www.f-16.net/aircraft-databas...irforce/ROKAF/

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by ananda View Post
    How serious are Japan with this ATD concept?
    The Japanese government finance is in a pretty terrible situation at the moment.

    The Japanese government is currently operating in a partial default mode, where the central government stopped financial aid payments to local governments due to lack of fund because of the Japan's version of debt ceiling stand-off between the DPJ and the LDP, with a full default set in November if nothing is done.

    With a public debt to GDP ratio of 240%, the Japanese government's ability to issue new debt is almost spent, and the Japanese government will have to enter a Greece style austerity sooner or later.

    And that would hit Japan's defense spending directly.

  8. #38
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    Russia isn't offering any of the islands anymore.
    That ship has long sailed.
    http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/9098/rsz11rsz3807.jpg

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlowMan View Post
    The Japanese government finance is in a pretty terrible situation at the moment.

    The Japanese government is currently operating in a partial default mode, where the central government stopped financial aid payments to local governments due to lack of fund because of the Japan's version of debt ceiling stand-off between the DPJ and the LDP, with a full default set in November if nothing is done.

    With a public debt to GDP ratio of 240%, the Japanese government's ability to issue new debt is almost spent, and the Japanese government will have to enter a Greece style austerity sooner or later.

    And that would hit Japan's defense spending directly.
    There are big & essential differences between Greece & Japan. The Greek state owes huge amounts to foreigners, in foreign currencies. The Japanese government owes huge amounts to its own citizens, in its own currency. That gives Japan many options which are closed to Greece.

    Greece (not just the government) has been a net foreign debtor for many years, & that debt has massively increased in the last few years. Japan as a whole is a huge net foreign creditor, owning far more foreign assets than what it owes foreigners.

    Whatever happens with Japanese government debt, it won't resemble Greece in the slightest.
    Last edited by swerve; 7th September 2012 at 22:30.
    Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
    Justinian

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by swerve View Post
    The Greek state owes huge amounts to foreigners, in foreign currencies. The Japanese government owes huge amounts to its own citizens, in its own currency.
    And you think Japanese citizen bond holders are less angry at Japanese government than foreign bond holders at the event of debt default?

    Whatever happens with Japanese government debt, it won't resemble Greece in the slightest.
    Sure it will.

    At certain time, there is going to be no more new Japanese government bond buyers left, and the Japanese government can't raise enough money to meet its obligations without the bond sales. When that happens Japan must enter a Greek-style austerity to fund itself without selling additional bonds, which means a higher tax, and halving of government spending including the defense budget.

    At that time, Japanese government must lay off half the troops and stop buying new weapons.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Italy View Post
    with Putin coming into power, he is Japan's best hope in resolving border disputes and normalizing relations because of his japanophile tendencies.
    Putin has been in power since 31 December 1999 (when he became Prime Minister with Yeltsin's resignation)!

    As President of Russia from 2000-2008 he wielded not only the powers of that office but also many of those originally placed in the office of Prime Minister.

    When he became PM in 2008 all those powers plus many of the President's powers were transferred to the PM's office.

    When he became President again in 2012 everything again was shifted back to the Presidency.

    He has been in control of Russia for over 12 years now... what makes you think he will suddenly be nicer to Japan than previously?

    Quote Originally Posted by Italy View Post
    Russia will get access to Japanese investment and Japan will buy Pak-fa to replace their F-15 and F-35 to replace their F-4s.
    A purely delusional fantasy... Japan still considers Russia to be a major potential threat. They won't place their security in jeopardy by replacing their top air-superiority aircraft with a Russian aircraft.

  12. #42
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    Let's put things into context when we read about the current trends in Japanese forces. Japan's regional, fighter aircraft competitors in twenty years time will likely compromise:

    1. LM F-35C & F-35B (USN, USMC, South Korea?)
    2. LM F-35A (USAF, Australia, Singapore)
    3. PAK-FA (Russia, potential exports)
    4. Chengdu J-20 (China)
    5. KAI KFX (South Korea, Indonesia)
    6. Shenyang F60 (China)
    7. Sukhoi Su-35, Sukhoi Su-34 (Russia)
    8. Mikoyan MiG-31 (Russia)
    9. Boeing F-15 (USAF, Singapore, South Korea)
    11. Sukhoi Su-30 (Russia, China, Indonesia, Malaysia, Vietnam)
    12. Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet (USN, Australia)
    13. Boeing EA-18G Growler (USN, Australia)
    14. Boeing F/A-18 Hornet (USN, USMC, Australia, Indonesia, Malaysia)
    15. Shenyang J-11, Sukhoi Su-27 (Russia, China, Indonesia, Vietnam)
    16. LM F-16 (USAF, Indonesia, Taiwan, Singapore, South Korea, Thailand)
    17. Chengdu J-10 (China)
    18. Saab J39 (Thailand)
    19. Mirage 2000-5 (Taiwan)
    20. Mikoyan MiG-29 (Russia, Malaysia, North Korea)
    21. Xian JH-7 (China, Myanmar)
    22. Sukhoi Su-22 (Vietnam)
    23. AIDC F-CK-1 (Taiwan)
    24. KAI FA-50 (South Korea, Indonesia, Phillipines?)
    25. Alenia Aermacchi M-346 (Singapore)
    26. Shenyang J-8 (China)
    27. Mikoyan MiG-21, Chengdu J-7, Guizhou JL-9 (China, Cambodia?, Laos?, Myanmar, North Korea, Vietnam)
    28. Sukhoi Su-25 (Russia, North Korea)

    This list doesn't include regional (i.e. bomber) threats like the Sukhoi Su-24 (Russia), Xian H-6 (China), Tupolev Tu-95 (Russia), Tupolev Tu-22M (Russia), Tupolev Tu-160 (Russia), PAKDA (Russia), Ilyushin Il-38 (Russia), Shaanxi Y-8Q (China, Myanmar), Boeing B-1B (USAF), Northrop B-2 (USAF), Boeing B-52 (USAF), Lockheed P-3 (USN, Australia, Taiwan, Thailand), and Boeing P-8 (USN, Australia). Nor does it include regional interventionalists like France (Rafale), UK (Tornado, Typhoon, F-35B), Spain (Harrier, Typhoon, F-35B), or Italy (F-35B?).

    I can see why they need their current programs.
    Last edited by MadRat; 9th September 2012 at 01:54. Reason: fixed typo that swerve pointed out
    Go Huskers!

  13. #43
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    Thailand is going to get SAAB J37?

    Will it be put back into production, or are there some in storage we don't know about?
    Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
    Justinian

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlowMan View Post
    And you think Japanese citizen bond holders are less angry at Japanese government than foreign bond holders at the event of debt default?

    Sure it will.

    At certain time, there is going to be no more new Japanese government bond buyers left, and the Japanese government can't raise enough money to meet its obligations without the bond sales. When that happens Japan must enter a Greek-style austerity to fund itself without selling additional bonds, which means a higher tax, and halving of government spending including the defense budget.

    At that time, Japanese government must lay off half the troops and stop buying new weapons.
    Your post displays such dreadful ignorance that it's impossible to take seriously enough to dignify with a detailed answer. Go away & read some basic economics textbooks. Look at the history of countries (including democracies) with large domestic debts, & how many of them have been successfully reduced. Check what assets the Japanese state has.
    Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
    Justinian

  15. #45
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    When the japanese people can't take enough bonds, the japanese government will be forced to go to the markets, and it will be the beginning of the end.

    Nic

  16. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by swerve View Post
    Look at the history of countries (including democracies) with large domestic debts, & how many of them have been successfully reduced.
    None that I can think of. The thing with the national debt is that it can never be paid off; only managed, like growing the GDP and lowering the percentage of debt to the GDP.

    Check what assets the Japanese state has.
    About 100% of GDP. The debt is 240% of GDP, meaning a 140% net debt.

    Unlike past debts that went into infrastructures, the new debts go into pensions and local government financial supports and so on so no asset is left, and the problem will get worse as pension receiving retirees explode while tax paying workers decrease.

  17. #47
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    I fixed it, swerve. Smartalik.
    Go Huskers!

  18. #48
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    [Off-Topic Alert]

    I think...

    X : J39

    O : JA 37

    O : JAS 39
    Republic of Korea Air Force KF-16 missing photographs

    http://www.f-16.net/aircraft-databas...irforce/ROKAF/

  19. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bager1968 View Post
    Putin has been in power since 31 December 1999 (when he became Prime Minister with Yeltsin's resignation)!

    As President of Russia from 2000-2008 he wielded not only the powers of that office but also many of those originally placed in the office of Prime Minister.

    When he became PM in 2008 all those powers plus many of the President's powers were transferred to the PM's office.

    When he became President again in 2012 everything again was shifted back to the Presidency.

    He has been in control of Russia for over 12 years now... what makes you think he will suddenly be nicer to Japan than previously?
    Putin disagrees, in fact he wants to try talking about the islands again this weekend
    http://www.marketwatch.com/story/jap...nds-2012-09-08

    A purely delusional fantasy... Japan still considers Russia to be a major potential threat. They won't place their security in jeopardy by replacing their top air-superiority aircraft with a Russian aircraft.
    Japan disagrees, they are willing to let themselves be hooked on Russian energy after this recent LNG pact.

  20. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Italy View Post
    Putin disagrees, in fact he wants to try talking about the islands again this weekend
    http://www.marketwatch.com/story/jap...nds-2012-09-08


    Japan disagrees, they are willing to let themselves be hooked on Russian energy after this recent LNG pact.
    Putin statements gives false hopes to countries to induce them into cooperation but in reality he kicks them from behind.
    see this example. Putin intention is to discredit Islam by creating fight within Islam. but he is giving statement to the opposite.
    https://rt.com/news/vladimir-putin-e...interview-481/
    Luckily, we generally enjoy friendly relations with the Arab world, but we would like to stay away from Islamic sectarian conflict, or interfere in a showdown involving the Sunnis, the Shia, the Alawis and so on. We treat everyone with equal respect. We also get on well with Saudi Arabia and other countries; I have cultivated a warm personal relationship with the custodian of two Islamic shrines.
    Japan is bankrupt. manufacturing is fleeing Japan at fastest pace. There is complete lack of R&D & skill manpower for moving into new generation technologies to diversify the economic. Japan standards of living will continue to fall untill it become a third world country. see the low contractor wages in Japan nuclear power industry. Japan LNG deal is more sign of desperation.

  21. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlowMan View Post
    None that I can think of. The thing with the national debt is that it can never be paid off; only managed, like growing the GDP and lowering the percentage of debt to the GDP.
    None that you can think of? Then you don't know anything about it. It's been done, many times.

    And who said anything about paying it off? I said reduced.

    About 100% of GDP. The debt is 240% of GDP, meaning a 140% net debt.
    Yup. And more of those assets are foreign than debt is foreign, which throws the Greek comparison totally out of the window. Greece is stuffed because not only is its government debt largely foreign, but its citizens also owe lots of money abroad, which means that some of the traditional means of managing down domestic debt would produce catastrophic results. Japan is in exactly the opposite situation. Both the government & the citizenry have massive net foreign assets, giving a huge buffer against the hardships that tough action on domestic debt could produce.

    Unlike past debts that went into infrastructures, the new debts go into pensions and local government financial supports and so on so no asset is left, and the problem will get worse as pension receiving retirees explode while tax paying workers decrease.
    Japan is still spending on pointless infrastructure. Have you seen Japanese roads? There's money to be saved there, & a vast amount of that past infrastructure spending was waste, taking value from the productive economy, no more useful than making things & throwing them in the sea. Cutting it is not a bad thing.

    Japan is also suffering from disastrous self-inflicted economic wounds. The problems you describe exist, but are not insuperable, given political will. It could, for example, do the economy & public finances a power of good by re-starting all the nuclear power plants which have remained closed since completing maintenance, & save huge amounts of public money by sorting out the road building problem.

    The pensions burden can be addressed, & some action is being taken, at last, e.g. the raising of the mandatory retirement age - though the law is inadequate.

    Japan's chief economic problem is the lack of will to do what's needed. Greece, on the other hand, is up the proverbial faecal waterway & lacking means of propulsion. There's no way out but suffering & hard work, over a long time. Dealing with corruption would help, but mostly in terms of removing obstacles to recovery, rather than raising the money to pay off debt - though it would go a small way towards doing that. But corruption as pervasive as that in Greece is not something which can be dealt with quickly. Ditto the dysfunctional public administrative services.
    Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
    Justinian

  22. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Italy View Post
    Putin disagrees, in fact he wants to try talking about the islands again this weekend
    The Russian position is quite clear, they are not returning any island. Putin wants to talk about LNG gas pipe to Japan(Japan is desperate for LNG to power its power plants after the nuclear power shut down).

    Quote Originally Posted by swerve View Post
    None that you can think of? Then you don't know anything about it. It's been done, many times.
    Examples please?

    And who said anything about paying it off? I said reduced.
    Which is a pay-off, which cannot be done.

    Japan is in exactly the opposite situation. Both the government & the citizenry have massive net foreign assets
    Private sector, yes.
    Government, no.

    Japan is still spending on pointless infrastructure. Have you seen Japanese roads? There's money to be saved there, & a vast amount of that past infrastructure spending was waste, taking value from the productive economy, no more useful than making things & throwing them in the sea. Cutting it is not a bad thing.
    And all the construction workers go unemployed.

    It could, for example, do the economy & public finances a power of good by re-starting all the nuclear power plants which have remained closed
    And how does that increase tax collection and cut spending on social welfare?

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  24. #54
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    they rip off j21 design! funny they post it today when j21 is revealed

  25. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigershark View Post
    they rip off j21 design! funny they post it today when j21 is revealed
    Because the "J-21" uses such original design features right?
    http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/9098/rsz11rsz3807.jpg

  26. #56
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    It's been posted before (perhaps a week or two) the images of J-21/31 came out yesterday.

    What i find really interesting is that no other Stealth fighter either planned or in testing (AMCA, KFX, this japanese "ATF-X", J-20, SAC AMF, T-50 , F-35) uses flat nozzles. Must be something unacceptably bad about them (weight , loss of thrust , TVC limitations , added cost and complexity etc.)

  27. #57
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    Hey spoil sport.
    Pls do not post logical post here, it make all the recent of the post here even further painfully to read..
    And now they invaded this thread as well.
    Thanks

  28. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by mack8 View Post
    It's been posted before (perhaps a week or two) the images of J-21/31 came out yesterday.

    What i find really interesting is that no other Stealth fighter either planned or in testing (AMCA, KFX, this japanese "ATF-X", J-20, SAC AMF, T-50 , F-35) uses flat nozzles. Must be something unacceptably bad about them (weight , loss of thrust , TVC limitations , added cost and complexity etc.)
    its because all those fighters use non-US engines, all of which haven't developed a production model with flat nozzles.. although Russians did have an experiment going on.
    F-35 on the other hand, their selection of a round nozzle might be due to the fact that the B version had to bend its nozzle down to achieve lift

    other wise X-32 and YF-23 also had a flat nozzle and so did Lockheed's early model before X-35

  29. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by mack8 View Post
    It's been posted before (perhaps a week or two) the images of J-21/31 came out yesterday.

    What i find really interesting is that no other Stealth fighter either planned or in testing (AMCA, KFX, this japanese "ATF-X", J-20, SAC AMF, T-50 , F-35) uses flat nozzles. Must be something unacceptably bad about them (weight , loss of thrust , TVC limitations , added cost and complexity etc.)
    Sure.. The fact that even Lockeed alone have given up this concept with the F-35 alone speaks volumes..

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    Quote Originally Posted by MSphere View Post
    Sure.. The fact that even Lockeed alone have given up this concept with the F-35 alone speaks volumes..
    F-35 is just a cheap alternative to the much better F-22, F-35, by its original design concept, tend to use affordable technogolies.

    So F-35 use a should-be cheap alternative jet engine that is actually hopeless at super-cruise and super-sonic performance, due to its very high by-pass ratio.

    Thats why they dont even bother with the 2D-nozzle (which is optimized for super-sonic performance) for F-35.

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