Key.Aero Network
Register Free

Page 1 of 24 1234511 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 704

Thread: Quadbike Indian Air Force Thread Part 18

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    3,583

    Quadbike Indian Air Force Thread Part 18

    US trying to sell the F-35 to India

    November 21, 2011 (by Jason Hodgkiss) - As reported in both mainstream and aviation focused media, that the US government has been pushing the 5th Gen Fighter the F-35 to the Indian Air Force. This is after recent success with the C-17 and the 737 based P-8I been sold to India.

    With India rejecting older generation U.S. aircraft -- the Lockheed's "Block 70" F-16 and the Boeing F-18 Hornet (including the Super Hornet) with New Delhi shortlisting European defence firms Dassault and Eurofighter for the contract for 126 jet fighters.

    Despite, India having embarked on the path to co-develop its own 5th-Gen fighter, based on the Russian Sukhoi T-50 prototype, with New Delhi and Moscow inking a $295-million preliminary design contract (PDC) last December.

    In a nine-page Pentagon report said the US Defense Department was continually looking for ways to expand defence cooperation with India, including joint development of arms as the military-to-military relationship matures.
    Love Planes, Live Planes

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    2,690
    Quote Originally Posted by quadbike View Post
    I don't understand why they even try - with MMRCA selection soon to be announced, FGFA already selected, AMCA. F-35 brings no local assembly or TOT and nobody knows what it will cost.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    3,708
    Looks like the IA is trying its best to get its own aviation corps up and running with aviation assets for each of its Corps !

    This could mean increased orders for the Rudra attack helis and maybe even more LCH gunships..

    link to article

    New Delhi: The Indian Air Force may crib all it wants, but the Army is pressing on regardless - with its plans to have its own air force, albeit a 'mini' one. Fighter jets may not be on its wish-list, but the 1.13-million strong force wants everything else, from attack helicopters to fixed-wing aircraft.

    Army's long-term plans include a squadron each of attack/armed, reconnaissance/observation and tactical battle-support copters for each of its 13 corps. The three 'strike' corps, with HQs at Mathura (1 Corps), Ambala (2 Corps) and Bhopal (21 Corps) will get more 'air assets' in keeping with their primary offensive role, say sources.

    To top it off, each of Army's six regional or operational commands will at least get 'a flight' of five fixed-wing aircraft for tactical airlift of troops and equipment. "Army Aviation Corps, which is observing its 25th anniversary this month and operates around 250 light helicopters, has plans till the end of the 14th Plan (2022-27)," said a source.

    ...

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    1,566
    Cut down mmrca to half! Buy F 35!
    PEOPLE.FIRST.MISSION.ALWAYS.
    Have a good one..

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    727

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    1,241
    Quote Originally Posted by Spitfire9 View Post
    I don't understand why they even try - with MMRCA selection soon to be announced, FGFA already selected, AMCA. F-35 brings no local assembly or TOT and nobody knows what it will cost.
    Actually, local assemby and some TOT has been granted to some of the partners(like the UK). Basically the more funding and orders you contribute to the project, the more you get. India stood to get a fair bit bit had it committed to the programme.

    Some have argued that the MMRCA circus was pointless when we can just buy a fifth-generation medium fighter that will join us in nearly the same timeframe.

    Well, if AMCA gets delayed some 10-15 years down the line we may see an F-MRCA between the F-35, the Silent Eagle and whatever South Korea manages to put on the table.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    1,241
    Quote Originally Posted by coldfire2005 View Post
    Still in talks?

    At this rate the AMCA won't even fly before 2017.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    2,690
    Quote Originally Posted by Witcha View Post
    Actually, local assemby and some TOT has been granted to some of the partners(like the UK). Basically the more funding and orders you contribute to the project, the more you get. India stood to get a fair bit bit had it committed to the programme.

    Some have argued that the MMRCA circus was pointless when we can just buy a fifth-generation medium fighter that will join us in nearly the same timeframe.

    Well, if AMCA gets delayed some 10-15 years down the line we may see an F-MRCA between the F-35, the Silent Eagle and whatever South Korea manages to put on the table.
    TOT - don't make me laugh. The Brits had an admiral stand up in the USA Congress and threaten to pull out of F-35 because of US refusal to co-operate on TOT. And Britain is the only Tier 1 partner, building more or less the rear half of the aircraft, so what hope would India have of getting TOT?

    By the way, I believe that Italy is to be the second F-35 line, not the UK.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    1,241
    Quote Originally Posted by Spitfire9 View Post
    TOT - don't make me laugh. The Brits had an admiral stand up in the USA Congress and threaten to pull out of F-35 because of US refusal to co-operate on TOT. And Britain is the only Tier 1 partner, building more or less the rear half of the aircraft, so what hope would India have of getting TOT?

    By the way, I believe that Italy is to be the second F-35 line, not the UK.
    Didn't the UK eventually get what they wanted(besides, of course, the source codes that have been denied to everyone)?

    With close to 200 potential orders(the largest outside of the US itself) plus more from the Indian Navy I daresay they'd be willing to accommodate an Indian assembly line.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    3,647
    Quote Originally Posted by Witcha View Post
    Didn't the UK eventually get what they wanted(besides, of course, the source codes that have been denied to everyone)?
    Like two, probably three, F-35B´s?

    Quote Originally Posted by Witcha View Post
    With close to 200 potential orders(the largest outside of the US itself) plus more from the Indian Navy I daresay they'd be willing to accommodate an Indian assembly line.
    Well, depends on what you call an assembly line, the Italian and the (proposed) Japanese line will assemble kits made in the USA, if that´s the idea, it might be possible.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    3,583
    If India is getting ToT from FGFA & MRCA, no problem in buying pure capability in F 35 & U.S Alliance.
    Love Planes, Live Planes

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    1,086
    Quote Originally Posted by quadbike View Post
    If India is getting ToT from FGFA & MRCA, no problem in buying pure capability in F 35 & U.S Alliance.
    I just have to love the fact that people actaully hold the view that F35 is essentially an implicit way to bribe one's way onto U.S. alliance.
    how much worth is in an alliance that is actually brought with money?
    basic stuff like, honor, sovereignty, moral strength, self reliance, you know, things that makes up the self-respect of a country, all that gone to the toilet.


    OT. carryon .

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    1,241
    I wouldn't mind the F-35 as a plain friendly FMS deal, no political allusions involved. Just a capability addition with just the added benefit of improving strategic relations with the US and other JSF partners.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    1,086
    Quote Originally Posted by Witcha View Post
    I wouldn't mind the F-35 as a plain friendly FMS deal, no political allusions involved. Just a capability addition with just the added benefit of improving strategic relations with the US and other JSF partners.
    Hey, some people actully goes out their way to argue for an independent foreign policy, even if they recognized the fact that their country have no way to make all their weapons.

    When "buying weapons improves strategic relations with the US and other JSF partners" becomes actually real, I would question how strong and real are these benefits.

    when some one said to you, if you give me $100 to buy this broomstick and we will be friends after you give me $100 for this broomstick. because we all have the same broomstick so we would be friends, and we could help you beat another guy with the broomstick.

    how real would you think that friendship is?
    or how useful is that broomstick anyways. O_o
    Last edited by i.e.; 23rd November 2011 at 17:32.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    900
    Quote Originally Posted by Sintra View Post
    Well, depends on what you call an assembly line, the Italian and the (proposed) Japanese line will assemble kits made in the USA, if that´s the idea, it might be possible.
    what about the turks ? weren't they supposed to get a line or is that whole thing scrapped for political problems ?
    HAL - one step ahead of IBM

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Cemetery Junction
    Posts
    13,544
    IIRC the Turks were interested in an assembly line, but seem to have dropped the idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Witcha View Post
    Actually, local assemby and some TOT has been granted to some of the partners(like the UK). Basically the more funding and orders you contribute to the project, the more you get.
    Some confusion here. The partners are contributing technology to balance what they get. They had to bid for work designing and making parts. There was no work share agreement like that with Eurofighter. Paying part of the development cost got you the right to bid, it didn't guarantee work. The UK actually has more work than either its share of development costs or its expected order.

    One partner, Italy, has chosen to set up an assembly line (but hasn't done it yet), & that line will be just that - assembly. It will put together kits made of parts from the USA & the other partners, and the same Italian-made parts as will be in all the F-35s assembled in the USA. The Italians are hoping to supply some other partners, e.g. Turkey & the Netherlands, with Italian-assembled aircraft, but that's only a possibility, not something which has been decided.
    Last edited by swerve; 23rd November 2011 at 18:54.
    Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
    Justinian

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    4,801
    Quote Originally Posted by quadbike View Post
    If India is getting ToT from FGFA & MRCA, no problem in buying pure capability in F 35 & U.S Alliance.
    Well if Repulican like John McCain got in 2008 or in future
    YOu wont be discussing MMRCA/F-35 or any alliance.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    3,476
    Quote Originally Posted by JSR View Post
    Well if Repulican like John McCain got in 2008 or in future
    YOu wont be discussing MMRCA/F-35 or any alliance.
    The next President won't be McCain, just normal Cain.
    and when he gets in, the US will offer a free slice of Pizza for every batch of F-35 orders.

    and no, no ToT of Pizza to the Indians.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    3,583
    Quote Originally Posted by JSR View Post
    Well if Repulican like John McCain got in 2008 or in future
    YOu wont be discussing MMRCA/F-35 or any alliance.
    All the republican front runners have an Alliance with India as part of their foreign policy piece.

    As for i.e talking about being neutral we will be as long as our great neighbour to the east stop supporting Pakistan.

    We no longer have a Soviet Union to counter the Sino-Pakistani Nexus, as we had in the past, in that case an Alliance with America is needed in the long term.
    Love Planes, Live Planes

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    3,449
    Umm, don't we already have an F-35 thread?

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    3,476
    Quote Originally Posted by quadbike View Post
    As for i.e talking about being neutral we will be as long as our great neighbour to the east stop supporting Pakistan.
    It would be the interest of the world that India and China do not get together.. imagine, combined they'd make over 20% of the world's population and together, surpass the GDP (PPP) of the United States.. and that's before they start trading with each other! Indi Chindi alliance would conquer the world economically and Pakistan and all those South East Asian countries would be hapless, especially strategically.

    it would be in the interest of the US, Europe, South East Asia, Pakistan, and the arms industry that China and India remain hostile to each other :diablo:

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    1,086
    Hotdog hit the nail on the head. except china would likely to dominate in any foreseenable scenario with or without india.

    Great strategic visionaries would go pass the current situation and imagine great possibilities, then sets out to make the possibilities the new reality.

    as for the Sino-Pakistan Nexus... India has no oneelse to blame except itself. on both front. the knot is in your heart.

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    3,583
    as for the Sino-Pakistan Nexus... India has no oneelse to blame except itself. on both front. the knot is in your heart.
    Many here will disagree with this.

    India & China has unresolved border issues and have huge conflict of interests, so IMO can never be allies in the foreseeable future (not that I don't want them to be).

    India need to seek all the help it can get to balance its position in the middle of two nuclear powers.

    And yes weapon purchases and wider alliance with the United States is one way to go about it.
    Love Planes, Live Planes

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    4,801
    Quote Originally Posted by quadbike View Post
    All the republican front runners have an Alliance with India as part of their foreign policy piece.

    As for i.e talking about being neutral we will be as long as our great neighbour to the east stop supporting Pakistan.

    We no longer have a Soviet Union to counter the Sino-Pakistani Nexus, as we had in the past, in that case an Alliance with America is needed in the long term.
    It wont matter who ever Republican gets elected. They are supplied side economics with complete elimination of middle class. No middle class no stable society.remember this phrase.
    http://www.time.com/time/specials/pa...859517,00.html

    US will be even more beholden to China. and India will be facing very high inflation infact total economic meltdown. This even without considering republican starting any war. In 21st century it is hard currency power matters not paper alliances. India need to stand on its Four feets.

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    3,583
    India is on its feet and doing very well thank you for your concern JSR.

    In news

    War gaming centre to prepare IAF for global operations

    India is setting up a war gaming centre for its air force to enable the aerospace power train for warfare anywhere in the world by simulating scenarios at the strategic and operational levels.

    The Delhi-based War Gaming Centre (WGC), as the Indian Air Force (IAF) would call it, will be up and functioning in about three years from now and will be more advanced than the Gwalior-based Tactics and Air Combat Development Establishment (TACDE), a top IAF officer told IANS here.

    The WGC will be modelled on the Indian Army's Delhi-based WARDEC or War Gaming Development Centre, but would go much beyond the latter's role to develop warfare doctrines for strategic reach, he said.

    "The system will be able to generate scenario and simulation at strategic and operational levels in collaboration with other agencies, both military and civil, at the national level," the officer said.

    "The facility will have the capability to play the war game in coordination with or independently from varied locations across the country," he said.

    "The centre will paint scenarios anywhere in the world," he added.

    Air Chief Marshal Norman Anil Kumar Browne had, in his first press conference as IAF chief Oct 3, pointed out that his force's area of responsibility is beyond the Indian Ocean region and wherever India's strategic interests lie.

    Apart from taking into account the current fleet of aircraft, helicopters and infrastructure of the IAF, the centre will also cater to future inductions of aircraft and systems.

    The WGC will be capable of playing out scenarios of being a neutral power, apart from planning for high number of contingencies and missions, and address issues like application of air power.

    "Most importantly, the centre will provide and incorporate out-of-area contingencies, and include army and naval forces deployment in the overall simulation models, to help in planning and execution of joint operations," the officer said.

    The WGC will carry out strategic and operational doctrinal selection, integrate aerospace elements in the planning, and allow for execution of the war game in "real and turbo" time.

    With a seamless integration of existing tactical war gaming tools and packages in the IAF, the centre, once established, will undertake creation of a bank of scenarios and objectives, including secondary ones, of various types for use in all planned exercises of the IAF.
    Love Planes, Live Planes

  26. #26
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    3,583
    Army May Get its way with Helicopter ops

    Army in pursuit of winged dream

    The Indian Air Force may crib all it wants, but the Army is pressing on regardless - with its plans to have its own air force, albeit a 'mini' one. Fighter jets may not be on its wish-list, but the 1.13-million strong force wants everything else, from attack helicopters to fixed-wing aircraft.

    Army's long-term plans include a squadron each of attack/armed, reconnaissance/observation and tactical battle-support copters for each of its 13 corps. The three 'strike' corps, with HQs at Mathura (1 Corps), Ambala (2 Corps) and Bhopal (21 Corps) will get more 'air assets' in keeping with their primary offensive role, say sources.

    To top it off, each of Army's six regional or operational commands will at least get 'a flight' of five fixed-wing aircraft for tactical airlift of troops and equipment. "Army Aviation Corps, which is observing its 25th anniversary this month and operates around 250 light helicopters, has plans till the end of the 14th Plan (2022-27)," said a source.

    In the short to medium term, AAC plans to induct 259 light-utility and observation helicopters to replace its ageing Cheetah and Chetak fleets that service Siachen, Kargil and other high-altitude areas.

    Army Aviation Corps also wants 140 multi-role tactical battle-support helicopters to provide 'integral tactical lift to its formations' and 114 light combat helicopters that are being developed indigenously.

    Army is slated to get its first-ever attack helicopter squadron by February-March. These copters will be weaponized versions of indigenous Dhruv advanced light helicopters, called the Rudra, armed with 20mm turret guns, 70mm rockets, air-to-air missiles and anti-tank guided missiles.

    Army and Indian Air Force have long been engaged in the bitter dogfight over 'air assets', which erupted even during the 1999 Kargil conflict. The persistent turf war forced defence minister A K Antony to call for a ceasefire, maintaining the two forces should work in synergy by reconciling differences.

    Holding that IAF does not fully comprehend its operational philosophy and concepts like 'close air support' or 'nuances of the tactical battle area', Army says it wants 'full command and control' over 'tactical air assets' for rapid deployment.

    IAF contends 'air assets' are 'scarce resources' that should be handled by a force with operational expertise and requisite 'air-mindedness'. But Army is unconvinced.

    Itfeels the IAF can continue with its larger 'strategic role' and the 'tactical role' should be left to it.

    For one, AAC aviators and engineers are drawn from Army combat arms, like infantry, mechanized infantry, armoured corps, air defence and artillery.
    Love Planes, Live Planes

  27. #27
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    3,583
    Indian Air Force processing case for buying 6 air-to-air refullers

    Indian Air Force is processing a case for procuring six air-to-air refullers from the global market, Defence Minister A K Antony told Rajya Sabha today.

    In written reply to a question on purchase of mid-air refullers, he said, "IAF is processing a case for procurement of six air-to-air refullers from the global market."

    On its likely induction schedule, he said, "The Defence Procurement Procedure envisages a timeline of about two and half years from the date of issue of request for proposal to conclusion of contract in such multi-vendor cases.

    "The delivery schedule is expected to be between 36 and 51 months from the date of signing the contract."

    Replying to a question on shortage of aircraft, Antony said, "Procurement and induction of different types of helicopters required for operational and transportation tasks is underway."

    He said that the requirement of aircraft including helicopters is periodically reviewed and steps are taken to ensure that the operational requirement of the IAF are met.

    In his reply to a question on the steps taken by the government to simplify the procurement process, he said, "To counter systemic and institutional delays, procedures are continuously refined on the basis of experience gained and feedback received during the procurement process."
    Love Planes, Live Planes

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    9,703
    Quote Originally Posted by i.e. View Post
    basic stuff like, honor, moral strength, you know, things that makes up the self-respect of a country, all that gone to the toilet.
    Somehow those two don't seem to factor in when discussing ripped-off aviation projects.
    http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/9098/rsz11rsz3807.jpg

  29. #29
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    3,583
    Contacts with Russia, France, Ukraine to upgrade IAF fleet

    Contracts have been signed with Russia, France and Ukraine for upgradation of the flying fleet of Indian Air Force, Defence Minister A K Antony informed the Rajya Sabha today.

    "Contracts have been signed with RAC MiG Russia for upgradation of MiG-29 aircraft, with Spets Techno Export from Ukraine for upgradation of An-32 aircraft and with Thales, France along with with HAL for upgrade of the Mirage-2000 aircraft," he said in a written reply.

    He said mid-life upgradation of the fleet is a continuous process and is undertaken to retain the combat relevance of the aircraft.

    Antony said the capability building of IAF to meet emerging security challenges is taken as per the Long Term Plan of the force.

    "The Capability building involves both upgradation of existing systems and platforms as well as induction of state of the art modern equipment," he said.

    On procurement of amphibious assault vessels, he said, "A contract has been concluded with GRSE, Kolkata in September for construction of eight Land Craft Utility ships, which are likely to be inducted in the Indian Navy during 2013-15."
    Love Planes, Live Planes

  30. #30
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    1,086
    Quote Originally Posted by quadbike View Post
    Many here will disagree with this.

    India & China has unresolved border issues and have huge conflict of interests, so IMO can never be allies in the foreseeable future (not that I don't want them to be).

    India need to seek all the help it can get to balance its position in the middle of two nuclear powers.

    And yes weapon purchases and wider alliance with the United States is one way to go about it.
    This is where my comments on Great visionaries applies here.

    China and Soviet Union/Russia also had what at one point everyone agrees insurmountable difficulties, order of magnitude more difficult than what I consider mere paltry matters between India and China. They had un-resolved border issues...with the longest border in the world and huge conflict of interest. at one time, 1.5 million soviet soldiers in 100 mech divisions, and 2/3 of china's military forces were stationed along the sino-soviet border poised to go at each other. Nuclear ICBMs worth couple order magnitude more than india's nuclear arsenal were pointing at eachother's cities. Chinese moved entire industries from its industrial north into mountains for the war planning.

    and guess what they completely resolved the border issue and Russia is partnering with China on most issues in the world, not to mention some nice securities arrangements in central asia and far-east.

    Compare the soviet-chinese situation in 60s-80s to situation between India and China today, this is peanuts. the scale of problem is laughable. and would be a quite a joke if India thinks these difficulties are insurmountable. ( and given that history, you think China would be at least bit concerned with an Indian buildup?)



    India need to have some confidence. All the help you need is in yourself.

    you have to think what drove Pakistan into China's arms, or why you can not resolve the border issue with china, instead of falling into these useless traps of useless alliances.

    In the Indian public discourse today, don't see serious foreign policy analysis but instead knee jerking reaction of running into enemies's enemies and try to buy yourself security at every instances of perceived threats. I don't see visionaries.
    Last edited by i.e.; 23rd November 2011 at 20:23.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

 

- Part of the    Network -

KEY AERO AVIATION NEWS

MAGAZINES

AVIATION FORUM

SHOP

 

WEBSITES