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  • 90inFIRST
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Oct 2008
    • 240

    [QUOTE=Liger30;1612806]
    Originally posted by 90inFIRST View Post
    Nothing to be sorry about. Thank you for the awesome stuff instead!
    Thanks buddy

    Comment

    • pjhydro
      Rank 4 Registered User
      • Apr 2009
      • 886

      Originally posted by John K View Post
      Given the cuts in public spending which are coming, I think the BBC et all will make sure they do. Having a squadron of nine F35s rattling around in a 65,000 ton carrier will be seen as a criminal misuse of scarce resources, and will probably end up being blamed on the Navy.
      I don't think the BBC is that 'evil', my cousin works for them and i've not seen her sitting in the corner plotting the downfall of the military (or the right).

      The RN will ensure that some great publicity shots of a full looking QE is put out early on and it will be only the likes of me and thee that will spot that the deck has 3 F35s 5 Merlins and 6 chinooks, the public will go "wow thats cool look at all the neat planes" for about 30 seconds then forget all about it, the public and to be honest the average reporter have no idea what a "full CVF" is supposed to look like and for the most part they really don't care. Most people in the street aren't even aware we have aircraft carriers now, let alone are building new ones. Ask them what Astute or Daring are and they will stare blankly and as for QEs... "aircraft carrier? I remember that old Ark Royal on that series when I was little..."

      Comment

      • pjhydro
        Rank 4 Registered User
        • Apr 2009
        • 886

        Originally posted by nocutstoRAF View Post
        Given how flexible both the CVF and the F-35B has to be I have no problem with carriers sailing around with 1 squadron of F-35B on board for carrier training, a flight of Merlins embarked for training in the transport role and four Merlin ASaC.

        Given the F-35B squadron need to be both carrier qualified and to be able to operate in land based roles even if there were another 2 - 3 squadrons available there is no guarantee that they would ever operate the CVF's with a full deck just for training.

        If the UK had five or six CVF's then I would expect one of them to be full loaded out, but then if the UK had five or six CVF's they would be filling a very different strategic role than to the two we have plans for!
        well said. I would imagine that once or twice a year we will see QEs sailing with more than one squadron of F35s for a big exercise and that will be good value for money, maintaining the capability without wasting too much money- exactly how the RN will sell it to the public if it asks (truth always works best).

        Comment

        • Liger30
          Armed Forces supporter
          • Jul 2010
          • 901

          Originally posted by pjhydro View Post
          I don't think the BBC is that 'evil', my cousin works for them and i've not seen her sitting in the corner plotting the downfall of the military (or the right).

          The RN will ensure that some great publicity shots of a full looking QE is put out early on and it will be only the likes of me and thee that will spot that the deck has 3 F35s 5 Merlins and 6 chinooks, the public will go "wow thats cool look at all the neat planes" for about 30 seconds then forget all about it, the public and to be honest the average reporter have no idea what a "full CVF" is supposed to look like and for the most part they really don't care. Most people in the street aren't even aware we have aircraft carriers now, let alone are building new ones. Ask them what Astute or Daring are and they will stare blankly and as for QEs... "aircraft carrier? I remember that old Ark Royal on that series when I was little..."
          This is so sad. I'm italian, i'm from Italy, and yet i grew in the myth and the glory of the royal navy. I feel so excited just when it comes to learning where HMS Ocean last went, or to know that one of the Vanguards is out in the deep of the sea, i love to see the QEs taking shape and the public in there cares so little for the most glorious of navies in the world... It truly is sad. Unfurtunately, i also know well that you are right.

          And after all, it is not like things are that different in here. How many italians do know and care about the italian navy...? Actually probably even less (far less) than the britons that still feel the emotion coming out of the white ensign.
          It is not fair, though. The navy spirit shouldn't be allowed to die away this way. Especially in Englad. England without Royal Navy is no england, come on!

          But i look forwards to seeing true photos of the plane-crowded decks of Queen Elizabeth and not just the drawings we get now... And i'll be there when She gets launched, i promise.
          "It is upon the navy under the providence of God that the safety, honour and welfare of this realm do chiefly attend." - King Charles II

          Comment

          • pjhydro
            Rank 4 Registered User
            • Apr 2009
            • 886

            Originally posted by Liger30 View Post
            This is so sad. I'm italian, i'm from Italy, and yet i grew in the myth and the glory of the royal navy. I feel so excited just when it comes to learning where HMS Ocean last went, or to know that one of the Vanguards is out in the deep of the sea, i love to see the QEs taking shape and the public in there cares so little for the most glorious of navies in the world... It truly is sad. Unfurtunately, i also know well that you are right.

            And after all, it is not like things are that different in here. How many italians do know and care about the italian navy...? Actually probably even less (far less) than the britons that still feel the emotion coming out of the white ensign.
            It is not fair, though. The navy spirit shouldn't be allowed to die away this way. Especially in Englad. England without Royal Navy is no england, come on!

            But i look forwards to seeing true photos of the plane-crowded decks of Queen Elizabeth and not just the drawings we get now... And i'll be there when She gets launched, i promise.
            Good man!

            Comment

            • swerve
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Jun 2005
              • 13610

              Originally posted by nocutstoRAF View Post
              I think it more likely the BBC et. al. will call it a criminal waste to buy 80 F-35B and only have one carrier at sea at time which can carry a maximum of 36 F-35 and they will imply that the other 44 planes are wasted, and of course the public will lap it up like the idiots they are!

              In fact given that the head of the RAF has said that the RAF planned to move to only operating two types of fast jet and the out of service date for the Tornado is 2024 I am surpised that there has not been published a badly researched newspaper article talking about converting the Tornadoes - along with some made up figures of how the development costs will be at least a billion and the conversion of costs of each plane will be 20 million followed by some half-ars*d comments about how it is a waste to spend several billion to convert used Tornado airframes to operate on the carriers for decade before they need to be replaced.
              That doesn't sound like any BBC defence reporting I've read. It tends to be greatly inferior to the specialist defence press, but orders of magnitude better than, e.g., the Daily Wail.
              Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
              Justinian

              Comment

              • Liger30
                Armed Forces supporter
                • Jul 2010
                • 901

                Originally posted by swerve View Post
                That doesn't sound like any BBC defence reporting I've read. It tends to be greatly inferior to the specialist defence press, but orders of magnitude better than, e.g., the Daily Wail.
                The true problem for me is to see how many F35 are ordered and bought. I read even just this morning that cuts of up to two thirds out of the 138 planes planned have been suggested... and that would be, like, a disaster. 46 planes, or 50 as someone else suggested, are far, far insufficient to even be sure to fill up just one of the carriers in time of need.
                With 50 planes, deploy 36 on a carrier would be almost an impossible challenge.
                And such a small order would leave immense doors open wide for the morons who keep suggesting doing without Prince of Wales.

                That's what worries me the most.
                That, and the news that the treasury seems to be winning its battle against Fox to have Trident financed from the core defence budget.
                That would mean losing, all of a sudden, more than a quarter of an already insufficient and shrinking year budget, and it would put the MOD in a more than desperate situation.

                Meanwhile, shocking news keep coming out: the A400 order may be cancelled (unlikely for political matters), and if it is not, we are going to see the C130J sent out of service early after the old C130K, to have just C17 and A400.
                Regardless of the clear need for more stategical airlift capability that Afghanistan higlighted so much.
                It has been said the RAF offered to refuse the Nimrods, even, now that they are ready for going into service! Demented move, and a capability of sea control lost in one go.
                And it has been said that either the Tornado Gr4 or the Harriers may be gone within five years.
                If it was the Harrier, the Illustrious and Ark would follow Invincible on the scrap earlier than planned, obviously.

                All in all, we are looking at an even gloomier SDR than i feared. It is going to change the armed forces massively indeed, this time... and there is no turning back later. It may be shocking when the review comes out.
                "It is upon the navy under the providence of God that the safety, honour and welfare of this realm do chiefly attend." - King Charles II

                Comment

                • Hawkeye
                  Rank 4 Registered User
                  • Dec 2009
                  • 70

                  Harriers are needed so that someone can practice landing on the decks of QE and PoW. That's the RAF's and RN's bargaining chip there, otherwise they've got to teach stovl all over again from scratch which will cost more. Some harriers will get mothballed sooner rather than later, but not all of them until F35s are on stream.

                  Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the original plan to decommission Invincible, move Illustrious to mothball if we couldn't sell her, and sail Ark Royal for a few more years to share commando carrier duties with Ocean? Sure I remember reading that somewhere but quite possibly open to change although it would reduce wear and tear on Ocean and allow her to last a little longer until the UK is in a position to have a serious discussion about replacing her.

                  GR4s will start to retire early I'm sure.

                  What interests me is what will happen if the RC-135 buy is cancelled. It's 1.1billion for the last resort aircraft to replace Nimrod R1. I'm thinking out loud, could three more nimrods go through the MRA4 conversion process to do the R1 role for less than 1.1billion? Sensor and mission integration costs may kill that idea but possibly better than losing the capability altogether.

                  Typhoon 3B purchases will be put on hold for 5 years minimum. Whether we'll see any more other than attrition replacements remains to be seen. Possibly in the future but that would have to compete with more F35s and UAVs in the strike role. Speaking of which we won't see a 1:1 replacement for the harrier in the F35, let alone anything else.

                  The justification for the A400M is it's the middle ground between C130 and C17. It can haul larger and heavier loads further than a C130, still do para drops and rough landings, but isn't designed for the same mission as, and therefore costs less than a C17. So with it's nice new engines offering fuel efficiency compared to the C130, politicians will be asking why we still need C130s at all. Whether the C130Js stay or go depends on what the SDR says our airlift requirements are. I suspect the RAF will try to get more A400M early if it offers a reduction in the J fleet over the next few years using some of the type as sources of spares to keep the others going, and using the lower fuel burn of the A400M to pay back some of the procurement cost. Again, I don't anticipate a 1:1 replacement by any means let me make that clear now.

                  The Puma upgrade may be under more pressure as I understand it, 14 aircraft will be upgraded by the end of 2012 and we pull out of Afghanistan which was the driver for this 2 years later. Politcal slight of hand will say cancel it and funnel the money into more Chinooks which won't be delivered until after the pull out.

                  Comment

                  • swerve
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Jun 2005
                    • 13610

                    Originally posted by Hawkeye View Post
                    What interests me is what will happen if the RC-135 buy is cancelled. It's 1.1billion for the last resort aircraft to replace Nimrod R1. I'm thinking out loud, could three more nimrods go through the MRA4 conversion process to do the R1 role for less than 1.1billion? Sensor and mission integration costs may kill that idea but possibly better than losing the capability altogether.
                    There are two development MRA4s going spare, so only one airframe would need to be converted.

                    Originally posted by Hawkeye View Post
                    The justification for the A400M is it's the middle ground between C130 and C17. It can haul larger and heavier loads further than a C130, still do para drops and rough landings, but isn't designed for the same mission as, and therefore costs less than a C17. So with it's nice new engines offering fuel efficiency compared to the C130, politicians will be asking why we still need C130s at all. .
                    I reckon that slow delivery of A400M is more likely. I've heard that the C-130J fleet has used up airframe hours far quicker than expected, & by the time we have a decent number of A400M, high hours C-130Js will probably need a bit of rework to keep going. Might find themselves sold on cheap for someone else to do that.
                    Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
                    Justinian

                    Comment

                    • Liger30
                      Armed Forces supporter
                      • Jul 2010
                      • 901

                      Originally posted by swerve View Post
                      There are two development MRA4s going spare, so only one airframe would need to be converted.


                      I reckon that slow delivery of A400M is more likely. I've heard that the C-130J fleet has used up airframe hours far quicker than expected, & by the time we have a decent number of A400M, high hours C-130Js will probably need a bit of rework to keep going. Might find themselves sold on cheap for someone else to do that.
                      I think Typhoon tranche 3B will never come, quite simply. Germany and the others are going to most likely cut their own Typhoon budgets, so there will be likely no opposition to just ending the program there. Even less opposition will come if Romania really leases 24 Typhoons and Oman and Arabia both buy the 24 fighters each that they plan.

                      The RAF historically is more attracted by Tornado than Harriers, but good sense certainly suggests retaining VTOL capability. I hope good sense will triumph for once, but i don't trust politicians. Early retirement for Tornado is almost sure... but... within five years??? Damn, that's a massive change from a planned 2025 date.
                      At the very least, to survive such a cut, the RAF would have to speed up massively the weapon integration process on the Typhoons, or many capabilities, mainly the Storm Shadow long reach, will be lost.

                      Invincible is already out. Within the end of this year her fate will be revealed. Scrapped, or perhaps, if someone has a bit of gratitude, turned in a museum.
                      Illustrious may indeed end up mothballed. Sad destiny, but rather probable. Ark Royal though would then have to act alternatively as Commando platform and Strike Carrier, otherwise retaining Harriers will have been completely useless a move.
                      And with a single ship doing two roles, we'd have not one but two losses of capability when she is unavailable for refit or something.

                      Nimrod MR4 turned into R1 replacement was BAe's proposal. It has already been scrapped as too costy, and there will be no turning back.
                      But the Rivet Joint purchase seems to be safe, since ISTAR capability as a whole is considered a vital requirement, in Afghanistan and outside it.

                      The RAF currently has 25 C130 between J and K, for what i know. We are possibly looking at a fleet of 22 A400M (newly named Grizzly by EADS) and 7 C17 alone, with early C130 retirement.
                      Not so cruel in these terms, since A400M is more capable. But the much-needed increase in airlift capability would not come, with 3 planes less of all things.

                      Puma upgrade never really had me happy or impressed. I think it would have made more sense to buy a few more Merlin instead. Less airframes, but more capable, and with a fleet less to support and train about.
                      Buying them with folding rotor and tail would have also ensured that they could from the first moment take on roles on land and on HMS Ocean, with the aim of soon enough getting rid of Sea King HC4 as well.

                      Navalize all Merlins and move them to the navy in exchange for Sea King HC4, abandon Puma upgrade and put Puma out of service in exchange for a few more Merlins. This is the helicopter strategy that would have allowed the better results and the best long-term savings, with two types less of choppers to support, maintain and train for.
                      30 Merlin HM1 are going to get the CSP upgrade contracted for in 2006, 8 more could be fitted with Cerberus radar to replace Sea King ASaC and the remaining 4 either kept as source of spare parts or stripped of the sonar suite and used in a troop-transport configuration.
                      "It is upon the navy under the providence of God that the safety, honour and welfare of this realm do chiefly attend." - King Charles II

                      Comment

                      • Grim901
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • May 2009
                        • 1143

                        Apparently NG has been aggressivley pursuing a Global Hawk sale to the UK for its Scavenger requirement, perhaps whatever airframe (Global Hawk or preferrably one of the many British developed UAVs) is picked for that could also be used in the SIGINT role if the RC135 is cancelled.

                        It'd create more airframe commonality at least.

                        Comment

                        • Liger30
                          Armed Forces supporter
                          • Jul 2010
                          • 901

                          Originally posted by Grim901 View Post
                          Apparently NG has been aggressivley pursuing a Global Hawk sale to the UK for its Scavenger requirement, perhaps whatever airframe (Global Hawk or preferrably one of the many British developed UAVs) is picked for that could also be used in the SIGINT role if the RC135 is cancelled.

                          It'd create more airframe commonality at least.
                          The Global Hawk has been proposed for SIGINT role, but at the moment it is not fitted with the necessary sensors, and it would be a bit daring to start down this road.
                          Besides, the SIGINT performance of a Global Hawk would undoubtedly be far away from the quality offered by the Rivet Joint platform.
                          Same goes for other drones, that very unlikely could do more than a fraction of what a Rivet Joint can do. And they would still need to be fitted with a miniaturized SIGINT suite, that would have to be designed, developed, and integrated. It may end up costing as much as picking up Rivent Joint.

                          Besides, it is all to see if Global Hawk will be picked up for Scavenger. Especially if an agreement with France is found to collaborate on Mantis, for once they'll do the right thing and choose Mantis for that work, with Zephyr for the communication-relay role.
                          An all-british solution with massive capabilities and great export chances. Fox, after all, was very vocal in his support for Mantis, already before the elections.
                          "It is upon the navy under the providence of God that the safety, honour and welfare of this realm do chiefly attend." - King Charles II

                          Comment

                          • swerve
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Jun 2005
                            • 13610

                            Originally posted by Grim901 View Post
                            Apparently NG has been aggressivley pursuing a Global Hawk sale to the UK for its Scavenger requirement
                            Meanwhile, General Atomics is aggressively promoting Predator C, & EADS is pushing Talarion.

                            Originally posted by Liger30 View Post
                            The Global Hawk has been proposed for SIGINT role, but at the moment it is not fitted with the necessary sensors, and it would be a bit daring to start down this road.
                            EuroHawk - German (EADS) SIGINT version of Global Hawk. First airframe flew last month, though with a mock-up of the sensor package. Not ballast, 'but mission-representative harnesses and connections', according to EADS.

                            Originally posted by Grim901 View Post
                            Besides, the SIGINT performance of a Global Hawk would undoubtedly be far away from the quality offered by the Rivet Joint platform.
                            True. The on-board sensors must be far more limited, due to space & weight limits, & there is no possibility of on-board analysis.
                            Last edited by swerve; 21st July 2010, 08:56.
                            Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
                            Justinian

                            Comment

                            • Liger30
                              Armed Forces supporter
                              • Jul 2010
                              • 901

                              As i forecasted: Italy confirmed that it won't buy its 25 Typhoon Tranche 3B. The only one nation who may want them is Spain, which has not announced cuts to its military despite its dire economic situation.
                              However, i guess that at this point, there will be an agreement between the four nations to have no penals, and the UK will definitely renounce to its own 48 remaining planes. The first sure cut we'll see in the SDR, i'd say.

                              Reference to Italy's announcement here: http://www.defensenews.com/story.php...71&c=EUR&s=AIR

                              As a bit of a good news for Uk industry, India is soon to finalize the order for 57 more Hawk trainer jets. Let's hope it is only another step on the way to see them buying Typhoons as well!
                              "It is upon the navy under the providence of God that the safety, honour and welfare of this realm do chiefly attend." - King Charles II

                              Comment

                              • nocutstoRAF
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • May 2010
                                • 954

                                Originally posted by swerve View Post
                                That doesn't sound like any BBC defence reporting I've read. It tends to be greatly inferior to the specialist defence press, but orders of magnitude better than, e.g., the Daily Wail.
                                Sorry - I was using BBC et. al. to parrot the way that the previous poster was referring to the press - I find the BBC and Telegraph defence reporting okay if slightly prone to repeating rumours - FT is a good source (such as the story I read this morning which I think is of some interest re: Liam Fox meeting LM http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a9544f66-9...44feabdc0.html)

                                The defence press is much better but I always feel that I do not have enough time to research every story I read so that I am sure I fully understand all the aspects of it (I sure you have picked that up in some of my posts ). I also subscribe to the daily news e-mail from the MoD.

                                Less said about the Daily Wail the better!
                                If having a little knowledge is dangerous then I must be bloody deadly

                                Comment

                                • MisterQ
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Jan 2008
                                  • 475

                                  Originally posted by Liger30 View Post
                                  As i forecasted: Italy confirmed that it won't buy its 25 Typhoon Tranche 3B. The only one nation who may want them is Spain, which has not announced cuts to its military despite its dire economic situation.
                                  However, i guess that at this point, there will be an agreement between the four nations to have no penals, and the UK will definitely renounce to its own 48 remaining planes. The first sure cut we'll see in the SDR, i'd say.

                                  Reference to Italy's announcement here: http://www.defensenews.com/story.php...71&c=EUR&s=AIR

                                  As a bit of a good news for Uk industry, India is soon to finalize the order for 57 more Hawk trainer jets. Let's hope it is only another step on the way to see them buying Typhoons as well!
                                  Uh, not good news for the UK, the Hawk line is now in india IIRC.

                                  And don't bet on the Typhoons going just yet, Italy has announced their intention not to take the aircraft, now thw consortium must calculate the penalty for then not doing so and present them with the bill.

                                  Comment

                                  • Liger30
                                    Armed Forces supporter
                                    • Jul 2010
                                    • 901

                                    Originally posted by MisterQ View Post
                                    Uh, not good news for the UK, the Hawk line is now in india IIRC.

                                    And don't bet on the Typhoons going just yet, Italy has announced their intention not to take the aircraft, now thw consortium must calculate the penalty for then not doing so and present them with the bill.
                                    50% of the Hawks of the new order would still be imported from outside India, for what i understood.

                                    And there will be no penalty: the penalty can't come because the penalty does not really come from the consortium itself, but from the four nations that started the program. The Tranche 3A was (luckily) firmly wanted by Germany, Spain and to a degree Italy, which meant there was no space for the UK to escape their revenge if the unit cost of their Typhoons was to rise because of erased orders from Britain.

                                    But this time, only Spain, as i said, may be truly wanting the last batch, so the penalties are very unlikely to happen.
                                    The consortium merely made clear that Italy should do like the UK and actively pursue export orders to compensate for the refused planes.
                                    In the same time, the consortium announced 9 months of independent funding for the development of the AESA radar, vital for competing for export in India and elsewhere, with the intention of seeing the four partner nations stepping in later.

                                    Uk is already paving the way with a contract with Selex Galileo to develop and test an AESA radar on one Typhoon for later adoption.
                                    "It is upon the navy under the providence of God that the safety, honour and welfare of this realm do chiefly attend." - King Charles II

                                    Comment

                                    • Grim901
                                      Rank 5 Registered User
                                      • May 2009
                                      • 1143

                                      Originally posted by MisterQ View Post
                                      Uh, not good news for the UK, the Hawk line is now in india IIRC.

                                      And don't bet on the Typhoons going just yet, Italy has announced their intention not to take the aircraft, now thw consortium must calculate the penalty for then not doing so and present them with the bill.
                                      But the Uk still makes money from the sales. Do they make any parts for it in the UK still?

                                      Comment

                                      • Liger30
                                        Armed Forces supporter
                                        • Jul 2010
                                        • 901

                                        Developments on MASC: Merlin based for sure, but there are two different proposals. Apparently, ten AEW platforms are planned/required.

                                        Link to the article: http://defensenews.com/blogs/farnbor...or-uk-carrier/
                                        Westland-Thales proposal seems the most likely to me, sincerely.

                                        Also, the Sea Skua replacement seems to go ahead smoothly and it is apparently not menaced by budget cuts on either side of the channel. http://defensenews.com/blogs/farnbor...design-review/
                                        Last edited by Liger30; 21st July 2010, 17:29.
                                        "It is upon the navy under the providence of God that the safety, honour and welfare of this realm do chiefly attend." - King Charles II

                                        Comment

                                        • harryRIEDL
                                          Rank 5 Registered User
                                          • Jan 2006
                                          • 375

                                          Originally posted by Grim901 View Post
                                          But the Uk still makes money from the sales. Do they make any parts for it in the UK still?
                                          Hawk I believe much of its still subcontracted out to UK companies im not sure that the Hawk line is active in India either
                                          To Be or not TO be That is The Question you all should know the writer of that quote

                                          always look on the bright side of life monty python

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