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  • European
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Feb 2006
    • 316

    Second italian Horizon DDG launched.

    Today in the Fincantieri's shipyard in Riva Trigoso (Genoa) the launch of the second DDG AAW Orizzonte class. The 'Caio Duilio' (D554) for italian navy (MM):













    The minister of defense Arturo Parisi signing the cheque :mrgreen: :mrgreen:




    Caio Duilio is the last of 4 ships of the Horizon class built by Italy and France.
    The 4 ships are:


    ITS Andrea Doria
    ITS Caio Duilio
    FS Forbin
    FS Chevalier Paul


    Last edited by European; 23rd October 2007, 17:58.
    EuroFighter Typhoon, the main defender of european skies.
  • enrr
    Rank 5 Registered User
    • Jun 2007
    • 112

    #2
    The commissioning of Doria is expected in the next 6 months

    More photo of Duilio

    Last edited by enrr; 24th October 2007, 07:11.

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    • European
      Rank 5 Registered User
      • Feb 2006
      • 316

      #3
      More nice pictures of the new italian Horizon destroyer:









      Last edited by European; 27th October 2007, 10:06.
      EuroFighter Typhoon, the main defender of european skies.

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      • Rob L
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Nov 2004
        • 668

        #4
        Nice.

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        • leon
          Rank 5 Registered User
          • Aug 2005
          • 256

          #5
          Good photos. Thank you.

          Does someone has more information about this ships? Especially about the differences compared with the British type 45 Daring class?

          Are the three 7,62 cm guns to be used as CIWS?

          Comment

          • European
            Rank 5 Registered User
            • Feb 2006
            • 316

            #6
            Originally posted by leon View Post
            Good photos. Thank you.

            Does someone has more information about this ships? Especially about the differences compared with the British type 45 Daring class?

            Are the three 7,62 cm guns to be used as CIWS?
            Horizon/Type45 are similar in the desigh of the hull.
            the main differences are in the propulsion system CODOG for Horizon and Gas-Turbine electric for T45), an active radar for T45 (british Sampson) and passive radar for Horizon (Italian Empar).
            The combat system is the same (PAAMS).

            Yes, the 3x76,2mm are used as CIWS.

            More info:
            Horizon
            http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/horizon2/
            T45
            http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/horizon/


            The main specifications for the Horizon:

            Displacement: 5600 tons (6635 tons full load)
            Capacity: 32 passengers
            Length: 152,87 m
            Beam: 20,3 m
            Draught: 5,4 m
            Propulsion and power: 2 x 31280 hp GE/Avio General Electric
            LM2500 gas turbines

            2 x 5875 hp SEMT Pielstick 12 PA6 STC diesels
            1 bean propulsor
            2 x 5-blade propellers
            Speed: 29 knots (54 km/h)[1] (18 on diesel)
            Range: 7000 nm at 18 knts, 3,500 nmi (6,480 km) at 25 knots (46 km/h)
            Complement: 26 officers
            110 petty officers
            38 sailors

            Armament:
            8 Exocet MM40 or 8 TESEO Mk-2/A (Italian version) anti-ship missiles launchers
            2 Otobreda 76 mm Super Rapid guns (3 on Italian ships)
            2 20 mm modle F2 guns or 2 KBA Oerlikon 25/80 mm
            PAAMS (Principal Anti-Air Missile System): Sylver A50 vertical launchers with 32 Aster 30 and 16 Aster 15 missiles
            2 MU90 Impact double torpedo tubes
            2 SCLAR-H chaff, decoy and flares launchers
            2 SLAT anty torpedo system
            SADRAL launcher (French ships)
            Sensors: EMPAR "Phased Array" G band multifunction radar

            S1850M early warning long range radar
            1 NGDS system (2 decoy launchers, REM, RIR, LAD)
            1 radar jammer
            1 communication jammer
            1 Contralto system (2 acoustic decoy launchers)
            1 sonar Thales UMS 4110 CL
            Boats and other craft: 1 EDO

            1 EFRC (20 seats)
            1 Hurricane 733
            Aircraft carried: 1 NH90 or EH101 helicopter (radar ENR, sonar Flash, LADT 11, Marte missiles or MU90 Impact torpedoe

            Last edited by European; 27th October 2007, 10:36.
            EuroFighter Typhoon, the main defender of european skies.

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            • leon
              Rank 5 Registered User
              • Aug 2005
              • 256

              #7
              Originally posted by European View Post
              Horizon/Type45 are similar in the design of the hull.
              the main differences is the propulsion system, active radar for T45 (british Sampson) and passive radar for Horizon (Italian Empar) and other.
              The combat system is the same (PAAMS).
              I read on wikipedia that the differences in the radar fit is due to the mission parameters: the French and Italian ships should operate under the cover of the land based aircraft, whereas the British ships should operate independently. But is this true?! The French and Italian Navy have actually better fighter aircraft on their carriers and they have also plans to build bigger carriers - the last is also true for the Royal Navy.

              Comment

              • European
                Rank 5 Registered User
                • Feb 2006
                • 316

                #8
                Originally posted by leon View Post
                I read on wikipedia that the differences in the radar fit is due to the mission parameters: the French and Italian ships should operate under the cover of the land based aircraft, whereas the British ships should operate independently. But is this true?! The French and Italian Navy have actually better fighter aircraft on their carriers and they have also plans to build bigger carriers - the last is also true for the Royal Navy.
                Do you refer to this?

                From wikipedia, today:
                Problems emerged almost immediately: the primary problem was that of differing requirements: France wanted Anti-Air Warfare (AAW) escorts for its aircraft carriers, but only a limited range was necessary due to the self-defence capability of the Charles De Gaulle. Italy too required only close range capabilities, as in its home waters of the Mediterranean Sea the ships would operate under Italian Air Force cover. The Royal Navy, however, required more capable ships which could throw a large defensive "bubble" over a fleet operating in hostile areas. The compromise which largely solved this problem was the adoption of a standard radar interface which allowed France and Italy to install the EMPAR multi-function radar and the UK to install the more capable SAMPSON radar - the SAMPSON radar has a higher data rate and adaptive beam forming allows a greater multi-tracking capability, long-range detection of low-RCS targets, a lower false-alarm rate, and overall higher tracking accuracy.
                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizon_class_frigate


                Absolutely not true.
                Empar is not a multi-function radar.
                Horizon and T45 have the same 3D long distance radar, the Thales S1850.
                It's worth noting that the Horizon could carry an option of others 16 vls,
                and could reach 64vls, while the T45 could have only 48 cells, so the more capable are without doubts the Horizons.
                More the Sampson radar is an active radar and is more capable on the paper. At the moment the Sampson radar has not finished to be tested...

                Last edited by European; 27th October 2007, 11:03.
                EuroFighter Typhoon, the main defender of european skies.

                Comment

                • leon
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Aug 2005
                  • 256

                  #9
                  Originally posted by European View Post
                  It's not true.
                  Horizon and T45 have the same 3D long distance radar, the Thales S1850.
                  The only remaining reason would therefore subsidisation of the respective arms industries? British radar for British ships?

                  Comment

                  • Rob L
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Nov 2004
                    • 668

                    #10
                    There is a big difference between the SAMPSON and EMPAR radars, in favour of SAMPSON (it's active), but that doesn't mean Horizon can't act independently, it will be a world class AAW destroyer.

                    Absolutely not true.
                    Empar is not a multi-function radar.
                    Horizon and T45 have the same 3D long distance radar, the Thales S1850.
                    It's worth noting that the Horizon could carry an option of others 16 vls,
                    and could reach 64vls, while the T45 could have only 48 cells.
                    More the Sampson radar is an active radar and is more capable on the paper. At the moment the Sampson radar has not finished to be tested...
                    The Type 45 also can have 64 VLS cells. As for the radars, the Type 45 will enter service slightly after the first Horizon, iirc 2008 for the Forbin compared to 2009 for HMS Daring.
                    Last edited by Rob L; 27th October 2007, 11:06.

                    Comment

                    • European
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Feb 2006
                      • 316

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Rob L View Post
                      There is a big difference between the SAMPSON and EMPAR radars, in favour of SAMPSON (it's active), but that doesn't mean Horizon can't act independently, it will be a world class AAW destroyer.
                      Exactly.



                      @Rob L,
                      64 vls ? So, my mistake.

                      Could you tell us where the others 16 are placed?

                      Thanks
                      Last edited by European; 27th October 2007, 11:10.
                      EuroFighter Typhoon, the main defender of european skies.

                      Comment

                      • Turbinia
                        Rank 5 Registered User
                        • Apr 2006
                        • 868

                        #12
                        Fwd of the superstructure adjacent to the 48 cell Sylver, 16 strike lengh Mk.41 VLS cells for TLAM if the RN want it, or more Sylver, possibly adapted for Scalp/naval storm shadow.
                        One of the aspects of the t45 that is impressive that seldom gets discussed on these boards is it's propulsion package, the WR21 IEP is pretty much state of the art and worthy of serious discussion in itself.
                        Last edited by Turbinia; 27th October 2007, 11:23.

                        Comment

                        • European
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Feb 2006
                          • 316

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Turbinia View Post
                          Fwd of the superstructure adjacent to the 48 cell Sylver, 16 strike lengh Mk.41 VLS cells for TLAM if the RN want it, or more Sylver, possibly adapted for Scalp/naval storm shadow.
                          One of the aspects of the t45 that is impressive that seldom gets discussed on these boards is it's propulsion package, the WR21 IEP is pretty much state of the art and worthy of serious discussion in itself.
                          Do You meen between the 48 cels and the 114mm mk 8 ???



                          EuroFighter Typhoon, the main defender of european skies.

                          Comment

                          • enrr
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Jun 2007
                            • 112

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Turbinia View Post
                            Fwd of the superstructure adjacent to the 48 cell Sylver, 16 strike lengh Mk.41 VLS cells for TLAM if the RN want it, or more Sylver, possibly adapted for Scalp/naval storm shadow.
                            ....
                            But between the superstructure and the 48 cell Sylver isn't the space for SSM missile?

                            EMPAR is passive but from the 2011 Selex SI made an active version of the radar for italian FREMM. The planed third phase, after 2011, is a four fixed face active EMPAR.

                            Comment

                            • swerve
                              Rank 5 Registered User
                              • Jun 2005
                              • 13608

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Turbinia View Post
                              ...
                              One of the aspects of the t45 that is impressive that seldom gets discussed on these boards is it's propulsion package, the WR21 IEP is pretty much state of the art and worthy of serious discussion in itself.
                              IIRC the propulsion system of the CVFs will be based on it.
                              Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
                              Justinian

                              Comment

                              • Trident
                                Rank 5 Registered User
                                • May 2004
                                • 3959

                                #16
                                Originally posted by European View Post
                                Do You meen between the 48 cels and the 114mm mk 8 ???



                                AFAIK the additional cells are supposed to be fitted in a third row between the existing rows of 2x24 in the VLS "box" aft of the gun. If true, that could mean up to 3x24 (72) cells, if they are Sylver systems (the Mk41 is larger, so that might explain why only 16 are possible in that case).

                                The integrated full-electric propulsion of the T-45 is very impressive indeed, particularly since apparently no serious issues cropped up during trials sofar. With a minimum of 6 hulls reasonably assured at this point (and 8 still a possibility), the RN is pretty well off compared to the Horizon partners in terms of numbers as well. Unusual these days, but true
                                sigpic

                                Comment

                                • European
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Feb 2006
                                  • 316

                                  #17
                                  More pictures of the Caio Duilio:






                                  Wonderful ships, sad they will be only 2 on the navy...
                                  EuroFighter Typhoon, the main defender of european skies.

                                  Comment

                                  • leon
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • Aug 2005
                                    • 256

                                    #18
                                    Do you have also similar photos of Andrea Doria, Forbin and Chevalier Paul?

                                    I found some photos here:
                                    http://www.alabordache.fr/marine/esp...rbin/photo.php
                                    http://www.netmarine.net/bat/fregates/forbin/photos.htm
                                    http://www.netmarine.net/bat/fregate...aul/photos.htm

                                    Delphis Models announced a 1/700 kit of the Italian ships:

                                    http://www.delphismodels.it/index_e.asp
                                    http://www.delphismodels.it/pages/e_...ID_prodotto=78

                                    Comment

                                    • Roy Batty
                                      Rank 5 Registered User
                                      • Sep 2007
                                      • 7

                                      #19
                                      In advantage of the boats franco-italianos must say that are equipped since its entry into service with SSM missile and launchers ASW torpedoes of 324 mm.
                                      Do Horizon carried a mixture of Aster 15/30 or as the case in the British Type 45 will be equipped with missiles Aster 30 only?

                                      Comment

                                      • leon
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Aug 2005
                                        • 256

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Roy Batty View Post
                                        Do Horizon carried a mixture of Aster 15/30 or as the case in the British Type 45 will be equipped with missiles Aster 30 only?
                                        Here the missiles of the Horizons are described:
                                        Originally posted by Naval Technology
                                        The DCNS Sylver A50 vertical launch system within PAAMS, installed immediately forward of the two guns towards the bow deck, has 48 cells for both the Aster 15 and Aster 30 missiles. The Sylver launcher ensures that each round is aligned to within 1mrad. The maximum rate of fire is up to six rounds a second.

                                        The Aster missile carries an inertial computer with datalink and an active J-band Doppler radar seeker. Aster 30 has a range of 100km, Aster 15 a range of 30km. The missile has manoeuvrability of up to 62g, achieved through the use of the PIF/PAF guidance system.

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