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SCORPENE SSK [ Technical Merits & Demerits ]

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  • Austin
    Rank 5 Registered User

    SCORPENE SSK [ Technical Merits & Demerits ]

    No Flames Please , Pure Technical Merits & Discussion , Comparisons with contemprories would be fine

    Scorpene Once More
    FORCE September-2005 [www.forceindia.net]

    By Prasun K. Sengupta

    The Indian Navy's longstanding plans to acquire a fleet of an initial six Scorpene diesel-electric submarines (SSK) worth Euros2.2 billion is now undergoing a makeover, both technically and financially, in order to realise their projected delivery schedules in the 2009-2015 period. The ministry of defence (MoD) is now reworking the offer first made in mid-2002 by Armaris (formerly DCN International) of France under which the first two SSKs will be built in Armaris' Cherbourg-based shipyard and delivered by 2009, while the remaining four vessels will be licence-built by


    Scorpene SSK

    Of the first six Scorpene SSKs, the first three vessels will be the CM-2000 variant and will have a conventional diesel-electric 12 PA4 V 200 SMDS propulsion system built by S.E.M.T. Pielstick, while the last three, known as the AM-2000 variant, will incorporate the diesel-engines as well as the MESMA (Module d'Energie Sous-Marine Autonome) air-independent propulsion (AIP) system. If the MoD decides to exercise the option to acquire another four Scorpenes, these will be AM-2000s. The performance parameters of both variants will remain the same, except that the length of the AM-2000 model will increase to 70 metres and its submerged displacement will be 1,870 tonnes, against the 61.7 metres and the 1,565 tonnes of the CM-2000. Both SSK variants will have a crew complement of 31 (with a standard watch team of nine) and endurance of 50 days. The hull will be built with HLES-80 high-yield stress-specific steel, which will allow the SSK to reach diving depths of up to 300m (1,150ft) and achieve an average of 240 days at sea per year per submarine. The Indian Scorpenes will also feature a connection point for allowing a Deep Submergence Rescue Vehicle (that the navy will procure from either the US or Sweden) to dock during collective crew rescue operations.


    Scorpene CutAway

    All six Scorpene SSKs will be equipped with Underwater Defence Systems' SUBTICS (SUBmarine Tactical Integrated Combat Systems) combat management system (CMS), S-Cube integrated long-range sonar suite (comprising bow, cylindrical, conformal arrays, towed-arrays, flank/distributed arrays, and a high-resolution sonar for mine and obstacle avoidance) and CMO-10 non-hull-penetrating optronic mast (containing a thermal imager, high-definition colour TV sensor and wide-band RF sensors); Glasgow-based THALES Optronic Systems' combined CKO-48/CHO-98 search-attack periscopes ; and Elbit Systems-built combined SATCOM/VLS communications system and an electronic warfare/direction-finding suite; all of which will be acquired off-the-shelf. The navy will also acquire a shore-based integrated simulation facility called SUBTRAC that will contain separate modules replicating the Scorpene's tactical command-and-control station housing the CMS, integrated platform management system, communications suite, weapons loading/fire-control suite, EW Suite, and propulsion system. SUBTRAC will provide Combat System Operator or Team Training, plus Combat System or Submarine Tactical Training.


    SUBTICS
    Scorpene sonar suite includes a long range passive cylindrical array, an intercept sonar, active sonar, distributed array, flank array, a high resolution sonar for mine and obstacle avoidance and a towed array.

    The primary armaments package for each Indian Scorpene SSK will now comprise up to four MBDA-built Exocet MM-40 Block 3 subsonic anti-ship cruise missiles and up to 16 533mm heavyweight electric tor*pedoes that can be launched from the six bow-located 21-inch torpedo tubes. The MM-40 Block 3 will have a range in excess of 180km and be equipped with a jam-resistant J-band active radar seeker with adaptive search patterns, plus GPS-based targeting avionics for engaging both warships and land-based targets. The wire-guided heavyweight torpedoes now on offer include Whitehead Alenia Sistemi Subacqua's (WASS) BlackShark/IF21 (already ordered by Pakistan and Malaysia for their Agosta 90B and Scorpene SSKs), A184 and F17 Mod 2 family of torpedoes; BAE Systems' Spearfish Mod 1; Alliant TechSystems' Mk48 ADCAP; Atlas Elektronik of Germany's Sea Hake; and Bofors Underwater System's Tp 2000.


    EXOCET AntiShip Missile


    EXOCET SM-39 In Action


    Heavy Weight Black Shark Torpedo


    Bofors Underwater System's Tp 2000

    The open-architecture SUBTICS CMS, (using TMS 320 C30 processors on a speed-ring network) dual redundant Ethernet databus, will include six multi-function consoles each equipped with two high-definition 19-inch colour AMLCD monitors. The S-Cube sonar suite will handle simultaneous surface/submerged target classification, identification and track management (among a set of 100 recorded tracks) using broadband, narrowband, demon and pulse (passive interception and ranging) processing channels. Mounted on the SSK's pressure hull will be launchers for the WASS-built C303/S anti-torpedo countermeasures system.


    Open-Architecture SUBTICS CMS

    The Scorpene's MESMA AIP system has been designed to increase the SSK's submerged endurance from three or four days to two or three weeks. Developed jointly by a consortium comprising Bertin, Armaris, Framatome-Thermodyn, Technicatome and Air Liquide of France and Izar, it will comprise a conventional steam turbine receiving high-pressure steam from a combustion chamber burning a gaseous mixture of ethanol and oxygen. Heat energy will be converted into electrical energy using a conventional Rankine cycle comprising a steam generator, turbo-alternators and a condenser.


    MESMA AIP

    After inking the contract with Armaris, India will become the Scorpene SSK's third export customer. The Chilean Navy has already taken delivery of its two Scorpene CM-2000s, the Carrera' and O Higgins', while the Royal Malaysian Navy, which ordered two Scorpene CM-2000s on 5 June 2002 under a Euros1.04 billion contract, will receive the SSKs in 2008 and 2009. The Scorpene family of SSKs has been jointly developed by Armaris and Spanish shipbuilder Navantia (formerly Bazan, then Izar) of Spain.

    From DCN Websites

    SCORPENE

    MESMA AIP

    Heavy Weight Black Shark Torpedo

    Submarine Air Defence


    Courtesy : FORCE [www.forceindia.net]
    Last edited by Austin; 11th September 2005, 16:05.
    "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"
  • Austin
    Rank 5 Registered User

    #2
    Few Questions

    1 ) How easy or difficult would it be to integrate the KLUB missile with the Scorpene considering that Klub could be fired from 533mm TT , also Klub being the standard for IN Kilo class subs.

    2 ) What is the status of Exocet Block 3 , Is a sub launched variant of Exocet Block 3 being developed , How does the new Block 3 compared to Klub ??

    3 ) Presently HLES-80 steel is being used , But since France has already used HLES-100 for Le Tropmhent SSBN , Could the HLES-100 steel be used for Scorpene.
    Is depth an important factor for conventional SSK or the present 300 meteres is good enough.???

    4 )How practical and effective could an Air Defence Concept rather Self Defence
    concept as proposed by DCN below

    http://www.dcn.fr/us/offre/offre.php...me=equipements

    Thanks
    Austin
    "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

    Comment

    • Austin
      Rank 5 Registered User

      #3
      Scorpene Basic AIP

      So the Customers for Scorpene till now happens to be

      Country Quantity

      Chile - 2 Nos ( O'Higgins Handed Over to the Chilean Navy )
      Malaysia - 2 Nos
      Spain S-80 4 Nos ( A larger version of Scorpene)
      India - 6 Nos
      "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

      Comment

      • santi
        Rank 5 Registered User

        #4
        The S-80 has evolved from the basic lines of the Scorpene and, at this moment, its a very different vessel. Its not included, at least from a marketing point of view, in the Scorpene family and its not building 50-50 by DCN-Navantia, like Scorpene, only by Navantia.
        It will be a 2.500 t sub, with a larger diameter hull and double deck (Scorpene is single deck). Its AIP system isnt the MESMA. It uses fuel-cells. The difference with other fuel-cell plants (Type-212/214) is that the LOX will be produced at the sub itself using reformed methanol.
        The combat system is from Lokheed-Martin and now that US Congress has validated the sell to Spain of TLAM its possible that this one will used in S-80 (the other weapons up to 20, will be the german Seehake torpedoes and the Sub-Harpoon).
        The first one is planed for 2010-2011, following the 3 other one every year.

        Comment

        • JonS
          Rank 5 Registered User

          #5
          1 ) How easy or difficult would it be to integrate the KLUB missile with the Scorpene considering that Klub could be fired from 533mm TT , also Klub being the standard for IN Kilo class subs.

          not very easily because for starters the tubes must be able accomadate a missile of that size length and weightwise not to mention missile has to integrated with scorpene's SUBTICS.

          2 ) What is the status of Exocet Block 3 , Is a sub launched variant of Exocet
          Block 3 being developed , How does the new Block 3 compared to Klub ??

          under devolopment testing next year, but there are no plans for a sub launch variant. As for comparison with klub its lot more compact than klub but its subsonic, MM40 blk 3 does have secondary land attack capability probably in similar manner as brahmos.

          As for the article dont think this statement is correct:
          Whitehead Alenia Sistemi Subacqua's (WASS) BlackShark/IF21 (already ordered by Pakistan and Malaysia for their Agosta 90B and Scorpene SSKs), A184 and F17 Mod 2 family of torpedoes;
          Pakistan never acquired Blackshark are atleast to my knowledge only F17 Mod 2s accrding to sipri.Accordin to janes 2002 article only chile and italy operate/ordered it france and greece had shown intrest.

          Comment

          • Curious
            Rank 5 Registered User

            #6
            So we are buying a sub which neither of manufactering nations being France and Spain are buying themselves.

            Anyway it is more like commercial-political-bribed deal then necesssarily the best military-price-tech deal. But then nothing wrong in that also, I suppose

            Comment

            • Curious
              Rank 5 Registered User

              #7
              FARCE articles are written by a moron called Prasun who cuts and pastes from different websites and most of information is made up from web-site chat rooms.

              The things to watch for :-


              1. Data links for Brahmos

              2. Will Scorpene have sub launched SAMs?

              3. Will additional 6 Scorpenes be ordered killing off 6 Amurs?

              4. Will Scorpene combat suites and other mechanicals be diverted for ATV?

              5. Would Storm Shadow-Apache see a sub launched version? Exocte block?

              6. Will brahmos have a torpedo tube launched version (I have seen a pic in GoI publication IIRC)

              7. Torpedos?

              8. Fuel cells?

              9. What is the exact configeration of Scorpene?

              Lot of things will emerge in coming months.

              Comment

              • Merlock
                Rank 5 Registered User

                #8
                Originally posted by Curious
                So we are buying a sub which neither of manufactering nations being France and Spain are buying themselves.
                All I can say about the French Navy is that it does want nuclear submarines only, and is not interested in "classical" subs any more (just like the Royal Navy, in fact)...

                Note that a lot of the technology developped for France's nuclear subs has been integrated into the Scorpene's design...
                ________
                HASH
                Last edited by Merlock; 4th March 2011, 15:22.

                Comment

                • mirza2003
                  Rank 5 Registered User

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Curious
                  So we are buying a sub which neither of manufactering nations being France and Spain are buying themselves.

                  Anyway it is more like commercial-political-bribed deal then necesssarily the best military-price-tech deal. But then nothing wrong in that also, I suppose

                  not possiable because active press in india and it is more country to country deal than company to force.

                  INdia bargain hard
                  east or west india is the best

                  Comment

                  • Rajan
                    Rank 5 Registered User

                    #10
                    At the DCN Shipyard at Cherbourg, France, in October 2003, a Scorpene-type submarine under construction.




                    Indian Navy to gain teeth with Scorpene subs
                    --------------------------------------------------------------------

                    Vishnu Som

                    Sunday, September 25, 2005 (Paris):

                    The deal for Scorpene submarines is one of India's biggest ever defence deals, which was signed earlier this month during Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's visit to France.

                    India is paying more than $3.2 billion for six state-of-the-art French-designed Scorpene submarines.


                    The particular submarine, the O'Higgins, had been built for the Chilean Navy.

                    And now, a year after it signs its contract, the Indian Navy can expect to receive its first Scorpene, and one submarine every year in a six-year production run.

                    Risky venture

                    But there is one important rider in the deal. The Indian subs will not be built at the facilities at Cherbourg in France. They will instead be built at the government-run Mazagaon docks in Mumbai.

                    It's a risky venture, since it's been 11 years since India built a submarine. And there are concerns that in-house technicians, mechanics and welders at Mazagaon, may have lost their highly technical skills in the absence of any orders from the government.

                    It's a risk the French defence consortium Armaris is well aware of.

                    Not only do they have to rely entirely on the manufacturing skills of Indian technicians, they must also guarantee that the performance of the Indian-built submarines, matches that of submarines built in France.

                    If it all works out, then the Indian Navy will have one of the most potent submarine fleets in the world.

                    Latest technology

                    The Scorpene incorporates the very latest Naval technology. At the heart of the submarine is the SUBTICS integrated combat system, a highly computerised central management system, which oversees all of the submarine's sensors and its weapons
                    .


                    With a highly computerised system like SUBTICS in place, the number of officers and sailors on each submarine goes down drastically. Each Scorpene has a total complement of just 31.

                    The SUBTICS is in fact, a system, which is very similar to what has been installed on the Agosta 90 B submarine, another Armaris-designed submarine in service with Pakistan.

                    Pakistan, which has been using French-built submarines for decades, has selected the French-built Agosta to be the first submarine type it has constructed at home.

                    But any talk of similarities between the two subs is quickly dismissed.

                    Maintaining silence

                    Despite the breakthrough in the Scorpene deal after negotiations lasting several years, the Indian Navy remains entirely silent, and has refused to comment on the deal with France.

                    "Navies don't talk about their submarines," has been a standard line for years. But the fact remains that the Indian Navy has invested heavily in submarine technology for its future.

                    Submarines are, in fact, the ultimate stealth weapons.

                    Despite advances in sonar technology over the decades, detecting, tracking and targeting submarines remains extremely difficult, particularly in the Indian Ocean where the salinity of the seas and the presence of thermals zones of variable water temperature, make submarine detection extremely difficult.

                    Submarines like the Scorpene make this game of detection and counter-detection even tougher.

                    Designed to be extremely silent, the Scorpene can loiter under water for days, scouring the seas through long-range passive sonar signals, which detect the presence of other submarines and warships in the vicinity.

                    Formidable platform

                    However, the workhorse of the fleet is the Russian-built Kilo class submarine. Several generations behind the Scorpene in terms of its sonar and detection capabilities, the Kilo has nonetheless been recently upgraded.

                    It can now fire long-range anti-ship cruise missiles, making it a formidable platform.

                    It is these submarines, which are attracting a lot of interest. Sources say that a deal to acquire two Russian-built Akula nuclear powered submarines is almost through.

                    With an almost unlimited supply of power, nuclear submarines like the Akula, can remain on patrol almost indefinitely, transforming the Indian Navy from a regional to a global player.

                    And then, there's the indigenous Advaced Technology Vessel or ATV project, a homegrown nuclear submarine, construction of which remains an open secret.


                    It's not clear when the first ATV will be commissioned, but sources say the prototype built with considerable Russian expertise is almost ready.

                    Following the collapse of the Soviet Union, the Indian Navy went through some of its most challenging times, when even basic spares for its frontline warships were no longer available.

                    But things have clearly changed. Over the last few years, a lot of the very latest Naval technology in addition to several new warships have joined the fleet.

                    And now, this deal for six Scorpene submarines is one, which gives the Navy's underwater arm the much needed teeth.

                    http://www.ndtv.com/morenews/showmor...+Navy&id=79207
                    Last edited by Rajan; 26th September 2005, 00:57.

                    Comment

                    • Rajan
                      Rank 5 Registered User

                      #11
                      Though both Scorpene and Agosta-90 (Pakistan) has SUBCTIS, it is been entirely upgraded with new gen systems. There are almost 12 years difference between Pakistan gets it 1st Agosta-90 and India getting Scorpene. Without most of the systems do not remain same.

                      And Indian Navy will not buy the same system Pakistan have, will go for better like other deals.

                      In the above news article Vishnsu Som first said

                      Risky venture

                      But there is one important rider in the deal. The Indian subs will not be built at the facilities at Cherbourg in France. They will instead be built at the government-run Mazagaon docks in Mumbai.

                      It's a risky venture, since it's been 11 years since India built a submarine. And there are concerns that in-house technicians, mechanics and welders at Mazagaon, may have lost their highly technical skills in the absence of any orders from the government.

                      It's a risk the French defence consortium Armaris is well aware of.

                      Not only do they have to rely entirely on the manufacturing skills of Indian technicians, they must also guarantee that the performance of the Indian-built submarines, matches that of submarines built in France.

                      If it all works out, then the Indian Navy will have one of the most potent submarine fleets in the world.
                      But than
                      And then, there's the indigenous Advaced Technology Vessel or ATV project, a homegrown nuclear submarine, construction of which remains an open secret.

                      It's not clear when the first ATV will be commissioned, but sources say the prototype built with considerable Russian expertise is almost ready.

                      Comment

                      • SATAN
                        Junior Member

                        #12
                        Is 6 the final number of scorpenes? or more are likely to be built with nuclear reactors instead of AIP.

                        Comment

                        • Austin
                          Rank 5 Registered User

                          #13
                          Is 6 the final number of scorpenes? or more are likely to be built with nuclear reactors instead of AIP.
                          Reply With Quote
                          Well so far about the deal which has come to light is 6 to be built at Maz Docks , with an option for 9 more and India has the freedom to export it to third country if she feels so.

                          Nothing on N-reactor on Scorpene , Its just a thinking that a small reactor could be fitted in to it.
                          "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

                          Comment

                          • SATAN
                            Junior Member

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Austin
                            Well so far about the deal which has come to light is 6 to be built at Maz Docks , with an option for 9 more and India has the freedom to export it to third country if she feels so.

                            Nothing on N-reactor on Scorpene , Its just a thinking that a small reactor could be fitted in to it.
                            Well, according to DCN, the good thing about Scorpene's design is that it can be fitted with a small nuclear reactor. Amaris has been sharing some of the technology for the Triomphant SSBN with the IN.

                            Comment

                            • cinciboy
                              Fighter pilot wanabee

                              #15
                              Originally posted by SATAN
                              Well, according to DCN, the good thing about Scorpene's design is that it can be fitted with a small nuclear reactor. Amaris has been sharing some of the technology for the Triomphant SSBN with the IN.
                              Any links to prove this ?

                              Comment

                              • Austin
                                Rank 5 Registered User

                                #16
                                Well Scorpene has a great deal gained from French N-sub program , The French keeps on claiming that its a virtual Nuclear sub , Minus the Reactor , But It would require a small Nuke reactor to fit in , India still has to demonstrate this , Perhaps when ATV come out which by all indication is going to be very soon we will come to know about it.
                                "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

                                Comment

                                • Neptune
                                  Rank 5 Registered User

                                  #17
                                  So, what exactly is the advantage of a stupid nuclear reactor when you don't have the space to carry food or weapons for long range deployments? Nuclear propulsion is not economical, the only advantage are long-time deployments, that require much food and other stuff, and high power tech that can be installed, something this sub isn't planned to have either, or at least nothing more consuming than the conventional version carries.

                                  Comment

                                  • SATAN
                                    Junior Member

                                    #18
                                    My personal opinion is that the indian navy should have gone for the AMUR subs that Russia was offering with full transfer of technology. but keeping in mind, that these Scorpenes are going to be used primarily for coastal defense and facing off againt Pakistan's AgostaB90s......the U-214 would have been a better choice. The diving depth alone is 400m against the scorpenes 300m.

                                    Comment

                                    • cinciboy
                                      Fighter pilot wanabee

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by SATAN
                                      My personal opinion is that the indian navy should have gone for the AMUR subs that Russia was offering with full transfer of technology. but keeping in mind, that these Scorpenes are going to be used primarily for coastal defense and facing off againt Pakistan's AgostaB90s......the U-214 would have been a better choice. The diving depth alone is 400m against the scorpenes 300m.
                                      IMO, This Scorpene is a waste of purchase. I agree with SATAN regarding Amur. Scorpene purchase doesnt give any advantage except some money for the french. India should have chosen AMUR

                                      Comment

                                      • Neptune
                                        Rank 5 Registered User

                                        #20
                                        It seems that U212 (and hence possibly U214) is using a weapon called Barracuda... Supercavitation with an ingenious steering system and a speed of 360km/h (approx same as Shkval). Developed by Diehl and Atlas Elektronik. Although it should be said that no answers are officially given to the question whether U212 has this weapon.
                                        Nonetheless U212 is a better submarine with the heavy new torpedo (and possibly this supercavitation weapon). I think they could negotiate to receive these weapons as India doesn't directly pose a threat to Germany.
                                        And also the offer with the Russian Klub incorporated sounds appealing, much better than the Scorpene.

                                        Comment

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